Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems

11 May 2018

      I confirm that this is not an isolated concept to Australia. I heard the
same thing about being connected to the place, starting the story by
telling who your family is, etc. from Canadian indigenous peoples.
JP
On Fri, May 11, 2018, 09:26 Gnangarra, gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
...
speaking solely from experience with Indigenous Australian knowledge where
knowledge is passed orally across generations. The passing of knowledge is
connected to place, family, and heritage when an indigenous person speak
they first speak of their heritage, of their connect to the place, and of
their family. This all establishes the origins of the story, the authority
of the person to speak, and whos story they are telling.  much like a bio
of the author in a book establishes their expertise, version, and
publication dates sets the when
when we share the oral knowledge we already have established notability and
verifiability, when write the knowledge we dont damage or fix the knowledge
we share just what it was at that one point and place in time.  Culturally
the knowledge will continue to be share via the traditional methods
regardless. We have 200 years of recordings, oppression, dispossession, and
usurpation of indigenous knowledge that shows it still continues externally
to written forms.
If we look at someone like Daisy Bates when we digest her work its
relatively easy to establish the differences between her work in recording
Indigenous knowledge,  to the fictional works she sold to newspapers to
earn a living.   That same process she used a 100 years ago works for what
we are doing now. We dont need to invent new methods nor do we need to wait
for western sources to catchup all we need is that leap to accept oral
source with the traditional authentications.
While this is directly related to Indigenous Australian knowledge, the
methodology will work where we adapt to the cultural authentications of the
knowledge source and accept them as if we would a book, or journal and cite
them appropriately.
On 11 May 2018 at 20:52, Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il
wrote:
...
What are the non-Western methods?
בתאריך יום ו׳, 11 במאי 2018, 15:49, מאת Gnangarra ‏<gnangarra@gmail.com
:
...
thats the bias we dont accept knowledge as genuine or authorative until
its
...
been established by a westerner using western techniques.  The whole
point
...
of this discussion is that such a process invariably leads to bias, to
solve bias we need to shift our acceptance to alternative cultural
methods
...
of establishing notability and verifiability.
The point is those non western methods are able to provide the same
level
...
...
of authority as the currently accepted methods, that the to make the
change
...
isnt as disastrous as is being said because we adopt the method
appropriate
...
for the knowledge source rather than ignoring the knowledge until its
adapted to our way
On 11 May 2018 at 20:32, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net
...
wrote:
...
Yes, and we use those books and journal articles as sources. If they
are
...
...
written by an acknowledged expert or are peer reviewed, we may
consider
...
...
...
them reliable sources. I don’t think this is what this discussion is
about.
...
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
On
...
...
...
Behalf Of FRED BAUDER
Sent: 11 May 2018 07:19
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
People write books and journal articles which incorporate oral
traditions.
...
The Bible is one example. That doesn't mean we are going to remove
the
...
...
...
material about Native Americans migrating through Beringia but that,
if a
...
...
tribe's tradition is that it was always in the Americas, that should
be
...
...
...
included in its article. Probably not enough to satisfy everyone...
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net
To: 'Wikimedia Mailing List' wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Sent: Fri, 11 May 2018 00:34:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
If not written, how would they be referenced and verified?
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
On
...
...
...
Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 6:28 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
You are missing the whole point. I'm not talking about second
guessing
...
...
...
sources but rather changing our narrow point of views of what we
consider
...
...
sources of knowledge. A lot of cultures are of oral tradition and not
written.
JP
On Thu, May 10, 2018, 16:42 Todd Allen, toddmallen@gmail.com
wrote:
...
...
...
...
Abandoning notability and verifiability is a wide open sign for
spammers
...
...
and hoaxers. We have enough of that without giving them an engraved
invitation.
If published sources are biased, the efforts to correct that should
be
...
...
made
...
at the source (literally) level. Just like rather than "disputing"
a
...
...
...
...
reliable source, if we found evidence that contradicts them, we'd
ask
...
...
...
them
...
to correct, and then once they do we'll update the article
accordingly
...
...
...
based on their correction. Wikipedia is not there to second-guess
what
...
...
...
sources choose to publish or find "alternative" or "non-western" or
whatever else have you types of information. If our references are
flawed,
...
the solution lies in getting them to correct what they're doing,
not
...
...
...
...
"correcting" for any perceived bias by editors. We reflect sources,
we
...
do
...
...
not second-guess, dispute, or correct them.
Todd
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Peter Southwood <
peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
...
When Wikipedia was new and unknown there were not so many people
wanting
...
...
to use it for purposes that conflict with our purposes. Times
change.
...
...
...
...
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:
wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
...
...
On
...
...
...
Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
If we where that septic at the beginning, we will never have
started
...
...
...
...
Wikipedia to begin with. Really, an encyclopedia written by
anyone
...
...
...
...
without
...
any authority to double check before it is published? It is
doomed
...
to
...
...
...
fail.
...
Yes, in theory, but practice showed us otherwise. The question is
not
...
...
to
...
...
remove notability and verifiability requirements, but to change
those
...
...
...
...
requirements to be more inclusive of different ways of sharing
knowledge. I
...
think practice can show us otherwise in that case too if we are
ready
...
...
to
...
do
...
that leap of faith, the same way we did at the beginning of
Wikipedia
...
...
...
when
...
we opened editing to anybody.
JP
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:05 AM Peter Southwood <
peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> One Jar'Edo Wens hoax is enough, and that lasted 10 years in
spite
...
of
...
...
...
> notability and verifiability requirements, Without the
verifiability
...
...
...
> requirement  it would probably still be there. Leaps of faith
are
...
...
...
...
things
...
> that I do not generally do, I am a natural sceptic and prefer
evidence,
...
...
and
> where possible, reproducible results. When the evidence is
intangible,
...
...
the
> authors must take responsibility for their work, and that means
track
...
...
...
> record and proof of identity.
> This would be more easily fitted into a new project. I do not
see
...
...
it
...
as
...
...
> possible in Wikipedia. If the new project became recognised as
a
...
...
...
...
reliable
...
> source then Wikipedia could use it as a source, without
destroying
...
...
the
...
...
> credibility we have.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@
lists.wikimedia.org]
...
...
On
...
...
> Behalf Of Gnangarra
> Sent: 10 May 2018 15:50
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
>
>  notability and verifiability are important,  every culture and
language
...
> has this issue when it comes to sharing knowledge.  These
culture
...
...
...
...
manage
...
> successfully to share knowledge many of them long before the
western
...
...
...
styles
> were developed, I'd say they are robust alternatives.  The
issue
...
is
...
...
how
...
...
do
> we bring these sources into the western system, how do we
respect
...
...
...
them,
...
...
> how do we teach ourselves to understand that what we currently
do
...
...
is
...
...
not
...
> the only.
>
> There are risks in potential abuses of every system, even our
current
...
...
...
> systems have their faults and we assume good faith in the
citations
...
...
...
from
...
> books published but no digital.  Changing the way we consider
and
...
...
...
value
...
...
> alternative knowledge streams will take a leap of faith, the
question
...
...
is
...
do
> we really want to take that leap, do we really want to share
the
...
...
sum
...
of
...
...
all
> knowledge, do we want to address inherent bias in our current
knowledge
...
...
> networks or are we comfortable with just token efforts.
>
> Maybe the solution isnt in incorporating directly into the
wikipedia
...
...
but
...
> rather the creation of new project to bring forth these
alternative
...
...
...
...
> knowledge streams
>
>
> On 10 May 2018 at 21:47, Eduardo Testart etestart@gmail.com
wrote:
...
...
...
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I posted this a while ago, an investigation on gender bias
where
...
a
...
...
...
member
> > of Wikimedia Chile was involved, in his personal capacity
though:
...
...
...
...
> > https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10.
> > 1140/epjds/s13688-016-0066-4
> >
> > There are many things that can be addressed individually and
as a
...
...
...
...
> movement
> > or collective, if we believe the conclusions are valid,
which I
...
...
...
...
...
> personally
> > do, since they are supported with data and not on our
personal
...
...
...
...
...
> impressions.
> >
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > El jue., may. 10, 2018 10:27, Peter Southwood <
> > peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>
> > escribió:
> >
> > > Notability and verifiability are important. They allow us
to
...
...
...
...
produce
...
> > > reasonably reliable work. Moving away from those
constraints
...
...
...
opens
...
...
the
> > > doors to extremely unreliable material. If Wikipedia is to
remain
...
...
...
open
> to
> > > anyone to edit, there do not appear to be any robust
alternatives.
...
...
> Other
> > > projects may work around this problem, but would then
probably
...
...
not
...
be
...
> > open
> > > for anyone to edit. Or can you suggest another way?
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@
lists.wikimedia.org]
...
...
On
> > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > Sent: 10 May 2018 15:01
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing
problems
...
...
...
...
> > >
> > > "Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the
canon
...
of
...
...
> > > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge."
> > >
> > > But it is what we accept as part of the canon of
"knowledge"
...
as
...
...
...
...
> Wikipedia
> > > that could be improved. We have a very western approach to
that
...
...
...
...
saying
> > that
> > > it needs to be published in such books or journals to be
notable
...
...
...
> enough,
> > > when different cultures use different ways to build their
canon
...
...
of
...
...
> > > knowledge.
> > >
> > > JP
> > > User:Amqui
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 5:53 AM FRED BAUDER <
fredbaud@fairpoint.net>
...
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com
> > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.
org>
...
...
...
...
> > > > Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
> > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing
problems
...
...
...
> > > >
> > > > ...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly,
> > > > Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but
will
...
...
...
never
...
...
be
> > able
> > > > to correct it."
> > > >
> > > > Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the
canon
...
...
of
...
> > > > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge.
> > > >
> > > > The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does,
Wikipedia
...
> > will
> > > > reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and
other
...
...
...
bias
> > > issues
> > > > are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest
than
...
...
...
full
...
...
> > > correction
> > > > of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead.
> > > >
> > > > Fred
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems