we can, its rather simple. We quote the information and attribute it to the source.
Within oral cultures certain people with certain authorities on different subjects. When we record the spoken word we record the authority under which they speak. As the knowledge is transferred we also know that the knowledge will stay the same just the authority to speak it changes. Cultures that rely on oral transfer of knowledge actual have a consistency with the stories thats how 10's of thousands of years Indigenous Australian astronomical knowledge has been passed down and then verified by current western methods. We also have significant environmental stories that have been verified by studies including evidence of significant sea level changes where objects have been recovered.
Once you get past the its just a story that keeps changing, the scientific knowledge of these cultures are in many ways greater than the knowledge carried by current western sources.
The leap of faith is one of accepting that the means to establish notability and verify already exist we just need to put aside our own knowledge bias and accept the methods from the sources processes are just as robust. As for knowledge changing I suspect that most of the knowledge sourced from the 1900 encyclopaedia Britannica have changed considerably over the last 100 years.
On 11 May 2018 at 16:19, Natacha Rault n.rault@me.com wrote:
If not written, how would they be referenced and verified?
Could they possibly be registered in an oral form? Could we invent a way of integrating oral sources? We already use radio or television sources (also not written...). The only problem with oral sources like stories passed on generation to generation is that they are not fixed by nature. Fixing them could change the modality of transmission too. I suppose these sources could stem from a notorious person of a community who would give ID (like journalists do when writting a paper). Has there been research or projects on this? I suppose Lingua Libre could provide information on how to do it.
Cheers,
Nattes à chat
Le 11 mai 2018 à 06:34, Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net
a écrit :
If not written, how would they be referenced and verified?
Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 6:28 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
You are missing the whole point. I'm not talking about second guessing sources but rather changing our narrow point of views of what we consider sources of knowledge. A lot of cultures are of oral tradition and not written.
JP
On Thu, May 10, 2018, 16:42 Todd Allen, toddmallen@gmail.com wrote:
Abandoning notability and verifiability is a wide open sign for spammers and hoaxers. We have enough of that without giving them an engraved invitation.
If published sources are biased, the efforts to correct that should be
made
at the source (literally) level. Just like rather than "disputing" a reliable source, if we found evidence that contradicts them, we'd ask
them
to correct, and then once they do we'll update the article accordingly based on their correction. Wikipedia is not there to second-guess what sources choose to publish or find "alternative" or "non-western" or whatever else have you types of information. If our references are
flawed,
the solution lies in getting them to correct what they're doing, not "correcting" for any perceived bias by editors. We reflect sources, we
do
not second-guess, dispute, or correct them.
Todd
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
When Wikipedia was new and unknown there were not so many people
wanting
to use it for purposes that conflict with our purposes. Times change. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
If we where that septic at the beginning, we will never have started Wikipedia to begin with. Really, an encyclopedia written by anyone
without
any authority to double check before it is published? It is doomed to
fail.
Yes, in theory, but practice showed us otherwise. The question is not
to
remove notability and verifiability requirements, but to change those requirements to be more inclusive of different ways of sharing
knowledge. I
think practice can show us otherwise in that case too if we are ready
to
do
that leap of faith, the same way we did at the beginning of Wikipedia
when
we opened editing to anybody.
JP
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:05 AM Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
One Jar'Edo Wens hoax is enough, and that lasted 10 years in spite of notability and verifiability requirements, Without the verifiability requirement it would probably still be there. Leaps of faith are
things
that I do not generally do, I am a natural sceptic and prefer
evidence,
and
where possible, reproducible results. When the evidence is intangible,
the
authors must take responsibility for their work, and that means track record and proof of identity. This would be more easily fitted into a new project. I do not see it
as
possible in Wikipedia. If the new project became recognised as a
reliable
source then Wikipedia could use it as a source, without destroying the credibility we have. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gnangarra Sent: 10 May 2018 15:50 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems
notability and verifiability are important, every culture and
language
has this issue when it comes to sharing knowledge. These culture
manage
successfully to share knowledge many of them long before the western
styles
were developed, I'd say they are robust alternatives. The issue is
how
do
we bring these sources into the western system, how do we respect
them,
how do we teach ourselves to understand that what we currently do is
not
the only.
There are risks in potential abuses of every system, even our current systems have their faults and we assume good faith in the citations
from
books published but no digital. Changing the way we consider and
value
alternative knowledge streams will take a leap of faith, the question
is
do
we really want to take that leap, do we really want to share the sum
of
all
knowledge, do we want to address inherent bias in our current
knowledge
networks or are we comfortable with just token efforts.
Maybe the solution isnt in incorporating directly into the wikipedia
but
rather the creation of new project to bring forth these alternative knowledge streams
On 10 May 2018 at 21:47, Eduardo Testart etestart@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I posted this a while ago, an investigation on gender bias where a
member
of Wikimedia Chile was involved, in his personal capacity though: https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10. 1140/epjds/s13688-016-0066-4
There are many things that can be addressed individually and as a
movement
or collective, if we believe the conclusions are valid, which I
personally
do, since they are supported with data and not on our personal
impressions.
Cheers!
El jue., may. 10, 2018 10:27, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> escribió:
> Notability and verifiability are important. They allow us to
produce
> reasonably reliable work. Moving away from those constraints opens
the
> doors to extremely unreliable material. If Wikipedia is to remain
open
to
> anyone to edit, there do not appear to be any robust alternatives.
Other
> projects may work around this problem, but would then probably not
be
open > for anyone to edit. Or can you suggest another way? > Cheers, > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org]
On
> Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > Sent: 10 May 2018 15:01 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > "Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge." > > But it is what we accept as part of the canon of "knowledge" as
Wikipedia
> that could be improved. We have a very western approach to that
saying
that > it needs to be published in such books or journals to be notable
enough,
> when different cultures use different ways to build their canon of > knowledge. > > JP > User:Amqui > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 5:53 AM FRED BAUDER <
fredbaud@fairpoint.net>
> wrote: > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jane Darnell jane023@gmail.com >> To: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT) >> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems >> >> ...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly, >> Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will never
be
able >> to correct it." >> >> Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon
of
>> knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge. >> >> The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does,
Wikipedia
will >> reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and other
bias
> issues >> are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest than full > correction >> of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead. >> >> Fred >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=
unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
> > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > http://www.avg.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
-- GN. Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order here < https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-
reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8
. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe