Well, it doesn't matter to me if it is re-invention or not. To me the important thing is to put such an instance in action. And I know for a fact that it doesn't function today since I discussed this question with numerous people in the Wiki-org (like the stewards, the ombudsman etc.)
That you are independent doesn't mean that you are not accustomed to how the Wikis work, I would guess that it actually is a prerequisite that you are. It just means that you take a step aside and are no longer actively involved in any Wiki and that you understand your position as an independent arbitrator. This process is handled without difficulties by other organizations.
I am involved in work to counteract mobbing on the Internet in general and there are the Wikis today absolutely a part of the problem.
Regards, Lars Gardenius
________________________________ Von: Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.net An: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Gesendet: 19:14 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
That is just a re-invention of the Arbitration Committee. People from an external source nearly always have a fatal flaw; they don't understand how Wikipedia works. More informed people could man the arbitration committee, but that is a matter of documenting what the existing committee does and its effect and educating administrators, potential candidates and the existing committee members on the practical effect of their decisions.
Fred
Well that is pretty easy: that Wiki-org will follow the example put up by many countries, companies and schools.
Create an independent instance (i.e. in this case independent of the Wikis) that you can turn to when you are offended, insulted, mobbed, harassed or in any way mistreated by people in the Wikis.
Since so many seems to misunderstand this question, it is not meant to handle questions about content or policies in the separate Wikis, but only about the normal human behaviour that we have agreed on shall be present in a society (today not including the Wikis).
It is also important that this independent instance shall be responsible for that the behaviour in the Wikis are within the boundaries of the outside society, and therefore also has the right to intervene in a Wiki, when members of that Wiki cross that boundary.
Today there is an increasing problem with mobbing on the Internet. I don't want the Wikis to be an enclave where this is still allowed.
Regards, Lars Gardenius
Von: Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.net An: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Gesendet: 16:04 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
Lars,
Please put your cards on the table. What are your suggested changes?
Fred
I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases. I think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this thread.
To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users. I have discussed this question both with the stewards and the ombudsman, both tell me that they can't intervene in a Wiki, even if they themselves object to the behaviour of certain members of that Wiki.
That means that there is no instance outside of the specific Wiki to which a harassed and mobbed user can turn. That is I think an structural error that I believe you don't usually find in any other big organization.
I have also studied these pages where "dispute resolution" is handled. They do not impress me much. I agree with Rui Correia, it is the same people quarreling about the same things and the result is often nil.
So I still think there need to be structural change to handle this type of problems.
Regards, Lars Gardenius
Von: "cro0016@gmail.com" cro0016@gmail.com An: Lars Gardenius lars.gardenius@yahoo.de CC: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org; "fredbaud@fairpoint.net" fredbaud@fairpoint.net Gesendet: 15:15 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
I've worked extensively with dispute resolution on English Wikipedia (I have conducted surveys and so on). If you have specific trends I would welcome seeing them (isolated cases where one side is unhappy with the result is not necessarily a sign the process is flawed, so I am more interested in overall trends but would welcome your opinion.)
Steve ZhangSent from my iPad
On 05/09/2013, at 10:59 PM, Lars Gardenius lars.gardenius@yahoo.de wrote:
Sorry, but I have seen several instances where it certainly doesn't work. Not in a way you would expect in a normal society anyhow.
Regards, Lars Gardenius
Von: "cro0016@gmail.com" cro0016@gmail.com An: Lars Gardenius lars.gardenius@yahoo.de; Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org CC: "fredbaud@fairpoint.net" fredbaud@fairpoint.net; Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Gesendet: 14:22 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not work now. It could use improvement, but the same could be said about everything (and like most things, shortages of volunteers make things harder)
Steve Zhang Sent from my iPad
On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius lars.gardenius@yahoo.de wrote:
No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.
That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in a worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't work now.
To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out persons that they don't like is very naive. That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the
Wikis are no exception.
Today noone is accountable for what they do to other Wiki-contributors, they are not even identifiable since they hide behind nome de guerres. Stewards have no authority to protect users from abuses and the same goes for the Ombudsman. (see also Rui Correia's email)
So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks alike, and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal conditions, a more realistic organization to protect the users must be put in place.
Regards Lars Gardenius
Von: Fred Bauder fredbaud@fairpoint.net An: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. See Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who bump up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have learned that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content.
Fred
I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading position.
Regards, Lars Gardenius
Von: Rui Correia correia.rui@gmail.com An: Wikimedia Mailing List wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013 Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
Greetings to All
Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not compared to people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a long list of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave the project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore having to
fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis is fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a higher process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of people previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the 'outsider' that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets 'good advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to temper his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is round at a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is making the WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a
cabal.
And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that one encounters when you include something negative about certain big corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and everbody else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we know there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear you!".
Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly
was anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are legions out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we know that they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here, http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter...
I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back to XP. For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP is an upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of offending the entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - not the first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was immediately closed,
labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on
that page, but my entry was closed within minutes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_w...
It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed elsewhere.
So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, I don't do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in eight languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a number of initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am
happy to see
that things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy Wales in South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with a novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
Sincere regards to all, happy editing
Rui Correia
-- _________________________ Rui Correia Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186 Número de Telemóvel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186 _______________
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