Hoi, Your notion of community is what I question. It is in your refusal of accepting that English Wikipedia is not a safe place, in your notion that the WMF failed, you fail to accept that it is the WMF that is the arbiter of last resort. You also fail to appreciate that the Wikimedia Foundation is not a democracy. Only some of the board members are elected by the community. The notion that elected officials are beholden to the electorate has been spectacularly put on display in the United States so no they are not beholden to you nor me.
"We" do not consider facts, we hide behind opinions. The result is that our projects could do so much better once opinions are left for what they are in the face of proven facts. We claim our references are important but references to our behaviour have been reduced to who said what, where and when.
Maybe the recommendations of working groups are not better in your opinion nor mine. In the end it does not matter because there is so much that needs an overhaul that defensive postures are exactly the behaviour that is best to be disregarded. What is needed is accepting the need for change, consider what the recommendations are and consider them along the lines of how we could improve upon them. Thanks GerardM
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 19:20, Peter Southwood peter.southwood@telkomsa.net wrote:
Gerard, It is not clear who you are addressing here, but I am going to assume it is Benjamin, who made the original claim. It is a fair question, and some clarification would be welcome. English Wikipedia may have failed to provide a safe environment, but the WMF has failed possibly even more "spectacularly", and the recommendations of the Working Group do not appear to be likely to be any better or more effective. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 6:29 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!
Hoi, May I ask what you mean with "the" community? If anything the Wikimedia community exists in some 300 parts and every parts has as many distinct opinions. There are essential conflicts of interest, by some there is a sense of entitlement, either based on possession or based on promises made.
In many ways, what Jan-Bart wrote at the time makes as much sense then as it made now. The model of self governance within a project works up to a point but when it is then pointed out to it where it fails to meet expectations, like it does when it is tasked to provide a safe environment, it fails spectacularly. There is plenty of evidence showing how the well fortified positions the English Wikipedia community among others has taken, fails our readers in providing the best possible quality.
So what community and why should we bother when it is not even that great as an abstraction. Thanks, GerardM
On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 17:48, Peter Southwood < peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Benjamin, Has the board or any member of the board made any statement suggesting that the board might overrule the community in this matter? Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin Ikuta Sent: 24 August 2019 07:12 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!
It is disturbing that you would even consider overriding the community in such a massive way.
On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:44 PM, James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com wrote:
The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a group position at this point in time.
J
On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke geoffey.hawke@gmail.com
wrote:
James
Thanks for that. As a member of the Board, would you clarify the
Board's
position on whether it is prepared to see the final Recommendations implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?
Jeff
On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman jmh649@gmail.com
wrote:
I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
James
On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke geoffey.hawke@gmail.com wrote:
Paulo,
You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia
community
does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall that
just
five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board,
expressed
the opinion
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&am...
over a much less dramatic change.
> All of this is going to require change, change that might not be acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of
this
next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to
take a
wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you
have
to
let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next
step
when
needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you
will
return when the time is right.
I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
Jeff
On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta < paulosperneta@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs
8and
> their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around
December.
> Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will
only
be
> dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in
the
> process of implementation. > > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass
all
the
> way till implementation phase. > > Paulo > > Nicole Ebber nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de escreveu no dia quinta, > 22/08/2019 > à(s) 11:58: > >> Dear all, >> >> Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so
much
>> attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for
building
our >> future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and
clarifications.
>> >> DRAFTS >> As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently
shared
are >> recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but working >> documents that are currently being refined by the working groups.
Some
>> answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
development,
>> others are very detailed and will become more focused over the
next
few
>> weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give everyone a >> full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into multiple >> progress levels. >> >> I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities
and
>> community conversation processes are high on our radar. A recommendation > to >> change the existing license model, for example, will not just go through > a >> quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the > reasoning >> behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could
be
ways > to >> mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to
look
into >> different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in
the
>> Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation,
instead
of >> rushing to a quick fix. >> >> INTEGRATION >> The working groups are taking input that they gathered at
Wikimania
and
> via >> different movement channels and incorporating it into the next iteration > of >> their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis
for
>> harmonization across working groups. >> >> The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some
of
it >> targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles
or
>> values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or already >> addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be > considered >> in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic
input
will >> be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation. >> >> TIMELINE >> We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and
the
>> translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants
could
> read >> and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will
do
>> targeted, public outreach to online project communities in
multiple
>> languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall
direction
of
> the >> recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are already working >> on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare for >> harmonization. >> >> At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will
bring
3 >> representatives from each Working Group together to work to
develop a
> more >> coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by >> facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We
have
also >> invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie
D’Costa
>> (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia
Deutschland)
to >> the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their
work
and >> leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active
listeners
and >> can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and
consequences
on
> the >> organizational and movement level. They also participate as the >> representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the >> recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can anticipate >> any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan for >> implementation. >> >> Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and
present
them > to >> the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need the
legal
>> authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while
others
will >> then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and
structures
> for >> approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional
public
>> consultation activities around implementation that will be
discussed
and >> owned across the movement. >> >> WORKING GROUPS >> We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the process
that
>> embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures is
owned
> by >> the community. Members of the nine working group were selected by
a
>> steering committee and the groups were established in July
2019.[2]
Group >> members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from
different
>> regions and languages, from individual contributors and organized groups, >> and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia Foundation >> staff and board. >> >> The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being volunteers, > or >> doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the draft >> recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to form,
storm
> and >> norm as a group and figure out how to best work together across
time
> zones, >> languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the
substance
> and >> identified the scope of their work and the specific questions to
tackle
> for >> us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The
development
> of >> recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside from
many
>> online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings – included >> incorporating community conversations and external expertise. It
is
only > to >> the hard work of these groups that we finally have something
tangible
in >> front of us that we can all react to and help further improve to
build
> our >> future together. >> >> Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them,
rather
than >> rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please contribute
in
> good >> faith, and in a constructive way. >> >> Let me know if you have further questions. >> >> Best wishes, >> Nicole >> >> [1] >> >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_...
>> [2] >> >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_...
>> >> On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter ymbalt@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has been > pointed >>> out by multiple people from the very beginning) >>> >>> Cheers >>> Yaroslav >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke <
geoffey.hawke@gmail.com
> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett < >> andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke < geoffey.hawke@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the >>>>>> recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF >>>>> >>>>> This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate step;
the
> one >>>>> where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the wider >> Wikimedia >>>>> community. >>>>> >>>> >>>> That step is not mentioned at >>>> >>>> >>> >> >
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequent...
>>>> ? >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org ?subject=unsubscribe >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
>> >> >> >> -- >> Nicole Ebber >> Adviser International Relations >> Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy >> Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963
Berlin
>> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0 >> https://wikimedia.de >> >> Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen der > Menschheit >> teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei! >> https://spenden.wikimedia.de >> >> Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens
e.
V.
>> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
Berlin-Charlottenburg
> unter >> der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt
für
>> Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207. >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe:
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