--- "Jeff V. Merkey" jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com wrote:
Birgitte SB wrote:
You may want to be sure and explain exactly what
the
GFDL entails in this case. There is no guarantee
that
any work that is done under this license will be treated in a sacred manner by downstream users. Non-speakers would be within full rights to take
the
fork made in the Ute's language and put it up on a
new
website or even on Wikipedia where any "16 year old with a computer" will be able to edit it.
Which is why the translations will be intertribal only and not accessible to the general public in the case of the Uto-Aztecan translations -- at their request. The Foundation will have access to it, contingent on the concessions the Ute's are willing to make.
There are those involved who want it accessible to everyone, but their leaders make the final call. They have agreed that all Ute Indians will have access to the site. It doesn't violate the GFDL, its their language and they are providing me all four dialects, which this is the firs time in their history they have done so
Ute, Unite Ute, Uncompaghre Ute, and the the ancient Deep Ute Language. And unknown to the general public, the Ute's, like most tribes have a written language using syllabaric lithographs for their language. Some examples of it can be viewed as pictographs in nine-mile canyon in Utah -- they have never shared it before.
So as near as I can tell, I have made some very good progress very quickly. The Foundation is sensitive and respectful fo these types of projects.
You certainly may do your best to restrict "access" to the end product as you are planning. This is what many libraries do regarding rare PD texts. However if *one* person who is given access decides for any reason to make a copy public, the cat is out of the bag. For example a library may have strong restrictions on access. They do not allow their material scanned or photocopied you are only allowed to read it within one room. However I could type a transcription on a laptop over the course of several weeks and put it on Wikisource. Assuming this material is in the public domain, the library can do nothing in such in event as they only own the particular book not the copyright.
This could one day happen to the Ute's works. Once it is made public in part or whole, it can be treated in any way allowed under the GFDL. The foundation has no control over it, however respectful they wish to be. I am not trying to encourage action of this sort. But everyone involved needs to be aware of the ramifications of using copyleft material. This may seem an unlikely possibilty at the moment, but over time it more likely than not this material will become public. Although it may be a hundred years till that happens. I respect what you are trying to do and the Ute as well. I would hate for something like this to happen and the Ute to feel blindsided by such a turn of events.
Wikipedia is alien to most cultures I imagine. It
is
alien to capitalist culture and academic culture to name two. However many people accostomed to those cultures learn to adapt to and even appreciate WP culture.
I think you are focusing too much on the negative at WP and overlooking the positives of inter-culture collaboration.
No, I am a WP advocate, so don't misconstrue what I say. I am just coldly and directly stating the reality. Also, There is little to no benefit to interculture collaboration if you don't speak the language of what's presented, so the consumers of the content will invariably be the tribes themselves, and not the general community, so I think it's a moot point.
I am not trying to miscontrue your comments, please correct me where I have. I believe it is too easy to say "the Wikipedia way is alien to the culture of X and they will not be able to work under it's policies." Because X can be filled with many things which *have* adapted to WP culture. As I said above WP is very contrary to capitalist and academic cultures. Although there are always individuals who cannot adapt, I do not like to see this generalized to an entire culture. However, I always found it easy to work within the policies here, so it I may be completely wrong in this.
I hope your endeavor succeeds in any event.
Birgitte SB
--- "Jeff V. Merkey"
wrote:
Oldak Quill wrote:
Not at all. The best way to improve the site
would
be to work with
other langauge Wikipedias and within Wikimedia.
Are
you being active
in seeking members?
Yes, I am, however, our culture is alien to the Wikipedia culture and there are going to be issues with the way the site operates. So far every Cherokee who has edited on WP has gotten banned or scrutinized to the point they leave. We have a concept of respecting the space of a person who is working on something.
WP 's policies allow a 16 year old with a computer to come in and disrupt someone else's work and this doesn;t work for us. Our culture is based on
mutual
respect, and I believe WP and Wales operate on the premise people on WP should be the same way. This has not been the course followed. I think WP should continue and we can do hat we need with the
content
-- off site where our cultural issues can coexist peacefully.
You wont get many native people editing here due
to
the way the site is organized -- respect for others is lacking in the way articles are edited. It's ok though, we can still both be successful if we figure out a way to create dual environments where folks can be successful.
I am meeting w9ith the tribal council of the Ute, Shoshone, and Unita Nations on July 18, at 1:30 in Fort Duschene on the machine translations for their Wikipedia,
so
I am making excellent progress. They also expressed a desire to host their content off Wikipedia due to their review of the issues with how the site works -- its alien to most
native
cultures. The Ute's believe their language is sacred and they don't want non speakers working on it for religious reasons. You are going to find this is a
prevalent
attitude among Native Peoples. The ute's did not even allow
their
langauge to be written down until the mid 1970's
due
to their religious beliefs, so this is a big step for them.
Jeff
<snip>
Birgitte SB
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