Marco Chiesa wrote:
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 6:27 AM, Milos Rancic millosh@gmail.com wrote:
- wikiit-l: In constant decrease since the beginning of 2007.
As regards wikiit-l, a major reason for the decrease is that most of the traffic has been absorbed by the Italian chapter mailing list + we created a ml for sysops. I'm not sure about the trend of these lists, I'll have a look and will report soon.
Thanks for the insight, it's really a good work. Cruccone
To second this point...
The french wp list is still a little bit alive. Not much. 39 emails in october (which is quite high compared to previous months).
However, the french chapter lists are overall very active. We have three of them.
One is private, but anyone can join it (it is meant to avoid public archives of our discussions). I can count 23 emails in october. This one is hosted by WMF.
The membership one is private and restricted to members. It is quite nicely active. 87 emails in october This one is hosted by the French chapter, so does not enter into your stats. I did not check, but I think numbers are quite stable or rising.
The last one is the board one. Its members are current board members, plus previous still active board members. Say a dozen people. 207 emails in october. This one is hosted by the French chapter, so does not enter into your stats. I did not check, but I am sure numbers are rising.
This suggests three things to me.
First, when you argue that only a couple of chapters are active and doing things, you actually miss all the discussions happening on chapters hosted lists. The overal wikimedia mouvement is not limited to lists hosted by WMF, nor to wikis hosted by WMF btw (the French Chapter wiki is very active). So, I guess your figures are slightly biaised because you lack some information to make it truely complete. There has obviously been a transfer of discussions from public WMF lists to chapter lists. I'm not saying that's good or bad. That's just a fact. Transfer. And a consequence of it is balkanization.
Second, your stats include only emails sent on public lists hosted by WMF. For having been a long time on the board, I know for a fact a lot of activity goes on on private lists (such as the board list). This activity might balance part of the decrease of activity of public lists. What we used to discuss here, on public lists, moved there.
However, I completely agree (without any need to check figures) that most internal lists are in decrease as well (that's the case of the comcom list and of internal list quite obviously). And I share your concern on this.
The original move to the private lists (both WMF and chapter related) is due to the increase of public interest for any of our discussions. A lot of what used to be freely discussed publicly moved to private lists to avoid being published within hours in the press. Probably an escape from trolls as well :-)
However, the public and internal lists suffers three damages.
First damage: because of leaks, everything slightly confidential or even controversial is no more discussed. Neither on public, nor on private lists. Consequence: decrease of list volume
Second damage: the staff of WMF grew larger and does not discuss much on lists. So, many topics which used to be discussed on lists are now discussed in office. Consequence: decrease of list volume
Third damage: internal lists are quite cabalistic :-) Just consider internal-l and see how many new members joined in 2006 ? in 2007 ? in 2008 ? I think by and large, most people who joined in 2008 are staff members. Or previous members who were at risk of being removed because they stopped being staff or board members. Proposition of new names is looked with serious suspicion. New blood is now extremely rare, and does not replace those who become inactive. Consequence: decrease of list volume
Last, I agree with Michael. High discussion does not necessarily mean "lot's done". And lot's can be done without much discussion. The main problem as I see it is not decrease of emails sent on lists (I am slightly happy with this :-)), but decrease of communication between members or groups. We are growing. We are so numerous we can not discuss things easily on lists anymore. To scale, we need to break down in smaller groups. But we need to work on making sure communication between groups is still happening. I am not convinced lists do that best.
Ant