"After reading this document which was published under a cc-by license
we decided that it was worth it to create an English version as well.
We put out a request to the German OKFN volunteers and got a couple of
responses. Within a few days the complete document was translated.
Then, the original authors were consulted and they agreed to proofread
the document. This was also a great opportunity to implement some of
the comments they received from the German Wikimedia community after
publishing. With the help of Wikimedia Deutschland, we were able to
fit the document in the same design as the original.
And now in early 2013, we are very happy to announce the final version
of the document translated to English.
Download “Consequences, Risks, and side-effects of the license module
Non-Commercial – NC” here.
<http://openglam.org/files/2013/01/iRights_CC-NC_Guide_English.pdf>"
http://blog.okfn.org/2013/01/08/consequences-risks-and-side-effects-of-the-…
It is funny that in this morning I was just explaining to a chemistry
friend about the risks of the NC restriction and I gave just some of
the examples used in this guide. Wikipedia is the best way to explain
to people about that.
Congratulations to Wikimedia Deutschland and Open Knowledge Foundation
Germany for this work.
Tom
--
Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom)
"A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more
useful than a life spent doing nothing."
Dear all,
I would like to take this opportunity to remind you all that the
Affiliations Committee is still looking for candidates! Applications can be
sent in until 12 January as explained below.
Do you understand how Wikimedia works as an organization, and would you
like to help new organizations to get started? Then please apply! I hope
for many high quality applications!
Best,
Lodewijk
2012/12/12 Bence Damokos <bdamokos(a)gmail.com>
> Dear all,
>
> The Affiliations Committee [1], the committee that is responsible for
> guiding volunteers in establishing Chapters, User Groups and Thematic
> Organizations ("affiliates" in short) and approving them when they are
> ready is looking for about 6 new members.
>
> The main focus of AffCom is to guide groups of volunteers in forming
> affiliates. We make sure that the group is large enough to be viable
> (and advise them on how to get bigger), review bylaws for compliance
> with the requirements and best practices, and advise the Board of the
> Wikimedia Foundation on issues connected to Chapters, Thematic
> Organizations and User Groups.
>
> This requires communication with volunteers all over the World,
> negotiating skills and cultural sensitivity and the ability to
> understand legal texts. We try to get a healthy mix of different skill
> sets in our members.
>
> Key skills/experience that we are looking for in candidate members,
> are typically:
>
> * Excitement by the challenge of helping to empower groups of
> volunteers worldwide
> * Willingness to work in a sometimes bureaucratic, sometimes political
> process
> * 4 hours per week availability[2]
> * International orientation
> * Very good communication skills in English
> * Ability to work and communicate with other cultures
> * Strong understanding of the structure and work of affiliates and the WMF
> * Communication skills in other languages are a major plus
> * Experience with or in an active affiliate is a major plus
>
> With the help of the Affiliations Committee, 2012 has been an exciting
> year of transformation for the movement with the introduction of new
> types of affiliation. This means that the workload of the Committee
> has increased and diversified and help is wanted! Currently many
> applications to become a Chapter, Thematic Organization or User Group
> are in the pipeline and can use your attention and dedication!
>
> You can send your applications with your name, contact data (e-mail,
> wiki username), experience and motivation to join to the AffCom email
> address, affcom AT lists DOT wikimedia DOT org by January 12, 2013.
> You will get a confirmation that your application came through.
>
> Members are usually selected every twelve months for staggered two
> year terms. The applications will be considered by the current members
> and outgoing members and Committee advisers, who are not seeking
> re-selection.
>
> Since I will be a candidate for re-selection myself, this process will
> be managed by another committee member, Lodewijk Gelauff. I hope for
> many suitable applications. If you have any questions, please don't
> hesitate to email me or Lodewijk[3] privately. We are happy to chat or
> have a phone call with anyone about our work, if this helps them
> decide to apply.
>
> Please distribute this call among your networks, and do apply if you
> are interested.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Bence Damokos
> Chair,
> Affiliations Committee
>
>
>
> [1]: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee (please
> follow the links and familiarize yourself with our work)
> [2]: Our member standards of participation are at:
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Resolutions/Standard_…
> [3]: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:EmailUser/Effeietsanders
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
Hello everyone,
I have just published the November 2012 report from Wikimedia UK. This can
be seen at http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Reports/2012/November Many thanks
to everyone who contributed.
For those who prefer not to visit the link, the report content is below in
plain text.
Thanks and regards,
Stevie
Below is the Wikimedia UK monthly report for the period 1 to 30 November
2012. If you want to keep up with the chapter's activities as they happen,
please subscribe to our blog, join a UK mailing list, and/or follow us on
Twitter. If you have any questions or comments, please drop us a line on
this report's talk page.
*Contents*
1 Program activities
1.1 Community
1.1.1 Manchester Girl Geeks
1.1.2 Microgrant outcome
1.2 GLAM activities
1.2.1 "Ice Age art: arrival of the modern mind", British Museum exhibition,
7 February – 26 May 2013
1.2.2 Nineteenth Century Books
1.2.3 Independent Wikipedian in Residence
1.3 Technology
1.4 Other activities
1.4.1 Other activities
1.4.2 Microgrants
1.5 UK press coverage (and coverage of UK projects & activities)
1.6 Upcoming activities in December and January
2 Administrative activities
2.1 Finances
2.2 Board activities
2.3 News from the Chief Exec
2.4 Communications
2.5 Fundraising and Membership
*Program activities*
*Community*
*
*
*Manchester Girl Geeks Editing Day 2012*
*
*
On Sunday 25 November Manchester was the scene of a Girl Geeks training
event. There were 12 attendees were introduced to Wikipedia and began
improving coverage of women in science. The Manchester Girl Geeks have been
getting involved with Wikipedia since 2011, and this event continued the
link. They were keen to get involved in editing at a later date and it is
hoped that more such events can be arranged in the future.
*Microgrant outcome*
November saw Wikipedia's article on Operation Barras under review to become
a Featured Article. The article, which details an operation in 2000 by the
British Army to free five of its soldiers captured in Sierra Leone, was
nominated on 23 October and promoted on 8 December. The work was the
initiative of HJ Mitchell whose endeavour was supported by a WMUK
microgrant which allowed the relevant books to be purchased. The drive saw
the article grow from a few hundred words to its current size of 5,600
words. While Operation Barras is the marque article, there have also been
improvements to other related articles.
*GLAM activities*
*Ice Age art: arrival of the modern mind", British Museum exhibition, 7
February – 26 May 2013*
13,000 year old engraved reindeer and ibex, with no article yet. Palart 505
We have been working on this with the BM for a long time. The exhibition
has now been announced -"Ice Age art: arrival of the modern mind" BM page.
It will run from 7 February – 26 May 2013. We have been given the list of
BM objects that will be included, and expect the full list of loan objects,
mostly from European museums, shortly, once this is finalized. There are 31
BM objects in the exhibition, of which we have Commons photos of 18, mostly
from the 2011 day at Franks House, and articles on 7. Any additions are
most welcome. All have the key information, and sometimes more, on the BM
collections database. The Commons photos are most easily found at the
Commons page: Objects in Sieveking, Ann "A catalogue of Palaeolithic art in
the British Museum", which uses the same BM Sieveking "Palart" catalogue
references as the BM database.
Please see the project page for more detail. Much of the exhibition will
then travel to Santander in Spain, which gives us an exciting opportunity
to link with Spanish (and of course Catalan) Wikipedians.
*Nineteenth Century Books
*
For more details, see Wikipedia:GLAM/BL/Books
Andrew Gray, the Wikipedian in Residence at the British Library, has been
working with a collection of around 40,000 books made available by the
British Library from a previous digitisation program. These are not yet
widely available online due to their size, but can be uploaded on request
to Commons or to Wikisource. All suggestions for new material are welcome -
the collection appears particularly strong in local histories and
travelogues.
The first fully transcribed book has been completed on Wikisource - A
Journey in Khorassan and Central Asia, an 1890 travelogue by an English
diplomat and his wife in eastern Persia and Russian Central Asia.
*Independent Wikipedian in Residence
*
In related news, Andy Mabbett has secured a role as a Wikipedian in
Residence at Staffordshire Archives and Heritage Service. This is
independent of the Chapter, but very interesting. You can learn more about
Andy's work here.
*Technology*
Emmanuel and Tom were taken on as contractors & the first development
meeting was held in the Wikimedia UK offices. A plan was agreed to migrate
Wikimedia UK websites, email, mailing lists and other services to a
multi-server Rackspace cloud. Initial work was undertaken prior to a major
push in December/January to complete the migration.
Tom and Emmanuel have been documenting their work, and the new
infrastructure, at IT Development.
*Other activities*
5th-9th - Andrew Gray ran a series of four workshops in Edinburgh for the
University of Edinburgh, the National Library of Scotland, and EDINA.
6th - Stevie Benton met with Matt Jukes of the Medical Research Council to
discuss Wikipedians in Residence.
19th - Robin Owain met with Rheinallt Foster-Jones (The People's
Collection) and Tom Pert (Mapping Officer, for the Royal Commission on the
Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales) at Llanberis. Piloting 100
CC-BY-SA images etc.
19th - Andy Mabbett ran a session on Wikipedia and its relevance for local
government at the HyperLocalWM unconference. He also wrote a piece
advocating open licensing, for the unconference's own newspaper!
20th - Stevie visited the town of Stamford, Lincolnshire, to learn more
about their project to improve local content.
20th - Andrew Gray and Richard Symonds met with the Imperial War Museum to
discuss Wikipedians in Residence
21st - Andy Mabbett travelled to High Wycombe to pilot new method of
Wikipedia (and OpenStreetMap) training, Tupperware Party style!
*Microgrants*
Information about microgrants that are currently running, and how to submit
a microgrant application of your own, are at Microgrants/Applications.
*UK press coverage (and coverage of UK projects & activities)*
See the communications section below.
*Upcoming events in January*
08 - Board meeting - call
12 - Manchester meetup
13 - London meetup
13 - Oxford meetup
14 - AHRC Wikipedia training workshop at the British Library
16 - IRC office hours
20 - Reading Meetup
For events in February 2013 and onwards, please see Events.
Administrative activities
*Finances*
The current state of each of our budgets is outlined in a Google
Spreadsheet. This details spend to date, and a rough estimate of future
spending. This spreadsheet is too complex to be placed directly on a wiki.
Our yearly spend is heavily 'end-loaded', partially due to the rapid growth
of Wikimedia UK.
Q3's Management Accounts (covering August, September, October) are at
File:Wikimedia UK Management Accounts Q3 2012.pdf. These are also available
in spreadsheet format for those interested - contact
richard.symondswikimedia.org.uk
*Board activities*
The Board held a full board meeting on 17-18 November in our London office.
You can see the agenda here, the minutes here and the reports here
*News from the Chief Exec*
For information on Jon's activities this month, see News from the Office.
*Communications*
The key area of importance in communications this month was a series of
articles published in The Times about the influence and activities of some
PR agencies on Wikipedia. The stories were fairly significant in that they
highlighted the widespread manipulation of Wikipedia by agencies on behalf
of their clients. One of the stories even made the front page. Given that
the journalists from The Times were open and transparent about their
research and interviewed Jimmy Wales to present a Wikipedian view, the
story was sympathetic to the Wikimedia movement. The story gained
relatively little traction across other outlets, although The Telegraph and
The Observer both ran online pieces.
Below are links to press coverage related to Wikimedia UK in November.
http://www.civilsociety.co.uk/governance/news/content/13702/independent_con…http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20096274http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/russianow/society/9646526/internet-res…http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/news/wikipediains…http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/11/02/wikipedia-founder-wades-i…http://rt.com/art-and-culture/news/sexual-intercourse-opera-wikipedia-839/http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2012/11/most-of-your-hurricane-sandy-knowledge-is-…http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/micwright/100008221/wikipedias-hurr…http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-11/07/wikipedia-box-office-predict…http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/nov/08/wikipedia-buzz-blockbuster-mo…http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/9666484/Wikipedia-data-can-…http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2230406/How-Wikipedia-spot-b…http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/…http://www.prweek.com/uk/news/1159206/pr-industry-blames-cumbersome-wikiped…http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/report-usmanov-pr-firm-tweak…http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/12/censorship-row-russian-internet…http://www.insideworldfootball.biz/premierleague/41-news/11579-arsenal-shar…http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2232288/David-Petraeus-Paula-Broadw…http://www.uznews.net/news_single.php?lng=en&sub=&cid=31&nid=21280http://www.prweek.com/uk/news/1159715/wikipedia-defends-editing-processes-f…http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/11/should-faculty-shun-wikipedia/http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/18/alisher-usmanov-spotlight-ne…http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/20/mp-demands-apology-tweets-wo…http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/9693478/Wonga-apologises…http://www.thedrum.com/news/2012/11/21/cipr-social-media-panel-criticises-w…http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/9699729/Former-Strictly-Come-…http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2012/11/start/wikipedias-top-20-rel…http://kykernel.com/2012/11/27/bogus-updates-appear-on-macintyres-stoops-wi…http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2239625/Jesus-Confucius-Sir-Isaac-N…http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/28/wikipedia-extradiction-law-review-…http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/levesons-wikipedia-moment-how…
*Fundraising and Membership*
*Fundraising*
This month, we received £1,810.87 in one-off donations, with 79 individual
donations. The average donation amount was £22.92 - 74% of these donors
have had Gift Aid Declarations made and matched with their records. If
anyone would like a full (but anonymised) csv file with more information,
please get in touch with katherine.bavage(a)wikimedia.org.uk and let her know
your requirements.
There were 5,555 successful direct debits this month, bringing in a total
of £22,256.49. Further figures are pending the return of one of our staff
members.
*Membership*
Up to 30th November 2012:
141 new (membership commenced in preceding three months) and current
members - with 8 new join-ups in November.
120 'grace' members (membership within six months after date membership
should be renewed)
This adds up to 265 members who are eligible to vote
155 Expired members
The steep change in 'New and Current' to 'Grace' reflects the numbers of
memberships taken out in previous fundraiser periods. A specific chase up
email will go out in January 2013 to all grace members on top of the
automated notice of grace period email.
--
Stevie Benton
Communications Organiser
Wikimedia UK+44 (0) 20 7065 0993 / +44 (0) 7803 505 173
@StevieBenton
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England
and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513.
Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street,
London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a
global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the
Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal
control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
--
Stevie Benton
Communications Organiser
Wikimedia UK
+44 (0) 20 7065 0993 / +44 (0) 7803 505 173
@StevieBenton
Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England
and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513.
Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street,
London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a
global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the
Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects).
*Wikimedia UK is an independent non-profit charity with no legal
control over Wikipedia nor responsibility for its contents.*
_______________________________________________
Please note: all replies sent to this mailing list will be immediately directed to Wikimedia-l, the public mailing list of the Wikimedia community. For more information about Wikimedia-l:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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WikimediaAnnounce-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaannounce-l
Hello, all.
I just wanted to do a reminder that it's coming close to time for annual
appointments of community members to serve on the Ombudsman commission.
This commission works on all Wikimedia projects to investigate complaints
about violations of the privacy policy, especially in use of CheckUser
tools, and to mediate between the complaining party and the individual
whose work is being investigated. They may also assist the General Counsel,
the Executive Director or the Board of Trustees in investigations of these
issues. For more on their duties and roles, see
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ombudsman_commission
This is the final call for community members interested in volunteering for
appointment to this commission. Commissioners should be experienced
Wikimedians, active on any project, who have previously used the CheckUser
tool OR who have the technical ability to understand the CheckUser tool and
the willingness to learn it. They are expected to be able to engage
neutrally in investigating these concerns and to know when to recuse when
other roles and relationships may cause conflict. (In the past,
commissioners have turned in other roles that could cause conflict.)
Commissioners are required to identify to the Wikimedia Foundation and must
be willing to comply with the appropriate board policies (such as the
access to non-public data policy and the privacy policy). This is a
position that requires a high degree of discretion and trust.
If you are interested in serving on this commission, please drop me a note
detailing your experience on the projects, your thoughts on the commission
and what you hope to bring to the role. The commission is deliberately
quite small, so slots are limited, but all applications are appreciated.
The deadline for applications is January 10. Any timezone. :)
Please feel free to pass this invitation along to any users who you think
may be interested.
Thank you!
--
Maggie Dennis
Community Liaison
WikimediaFoundation.org
James,
Is there evidence that WMF has a worrisome "talent retention problem"? Gayle seems to think that the answer is generally no. If there is evidence to the contrary that has more weight than anecdotal Glassdoor reviews, I would be interested in seeing that evidence.
I would distinguish between motivation and performance. Highly motivated people may perform poorly and/or perform in ways that are inconsistent with the organization's interests. Consider the cases of financial professionals who were so highly motivated that they were willing to risk criminal prosecutions and serious harm or outright demise of their organizations. I get emails every week from the SEC and almost all of them seem to include announcements of legal actions brought by the SEC against people who were highly motivated and made decisions that are questionable at best. Also consider the case of someone who may be highly financially motivated to get a degree in engineering but lacks the math skills to do so. Very highly motivated people may be unable to achieve their performance objectives or may take significant, potentially illegal and unethical risks to achieve those objectives.
Looking mainly at the abstracts, I think the final study that you linked is the most relevant of the set to the discussion here. In that case a financial incentive was added in addition to whatever other incentives already existed for the reviewers to complete their work. But I would argue that "doing the same work faster" is more analogous to the rule-based work, rather than the creative work, discussed in the video that Erik linked.
I am not opposed to WMF offering performance bonuses - money, recognition, PTO, greater discretion, conferences, training, desirable assignments - but in general I think you seem to be overstating the nature of WMF's issues with retaining personnel. Also, I would distinguish between incentives to perform and incentives to remain with the organization.
On the accountability side, I do think that there's room for improvement, and the employee survey data seem to agree with that. I support the consideration of making personnel changes if important targets are not met or issues do not receive adequate responses. (I am currently concerned about the Board, as I have mentioned elsewhere). But that's a different issue than the alleged "talent retention problem" for paid staff.
Pine
Pine wrote:
>...
> I think Erik addressed your question about pay in a way that is very
> reasonable and I would ask you to re-read his comments
Thank you very much for asking me to do this. I overlooked the video
mentioned in Erik's comments and I see now that it may be the root of
the problems with neglecting pay.
Erik Moeller wrote:
>...
> But the main thing, to keep people motivated, in my experience is not
> money....
> This video summarizing some of the related research is worth a watch:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
That video reports on two studies that found "higher incentives led to
worse performance," and claims that, "this has been replicated over
and over and over again." That is very misleading at best. The
following peer reviewed sources (the first of which are WP:SECONDARY
literature reviews) all indicate that while a few such studies
appeared in some popular press books, the vast bulk of the scientific
research does not agree with those isolated conclusions. In fact,
higher pay is almost always found to be a stronger motivator except in
those few anomalous studies highlighted in that video:
Fang, M.; Gerhart, B. (2011) "Does pay for performance diminish
intrinsic interest?" International Journal of Human Resource
Management: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09585192.2011.561227
Reitman, D. (1998) "The real and imagined harmful effects of rewards:
implications for clinical practice" Journal of Behavior Therapy and
Experimental Psychiatry 29(2):101-13 PMID 9762587:
http://carmine.se.edu/cvonbergen/The_real_and_imagined_harmful%20effects%20…
(Note this is a WP:MEDRS secondary source.)
Cameron, J.; Pierce, W.D. (1994) "Reinforcement, Reward, and Intrinsic
Motivation: A Meta-Analysis" Review of Educational Research
64(3):363-423: http://rer.sagepub.com/content/64/3/363.short
(WP:SECONDARY meta-analysis of 96 experimental studies.)
Eisenberger, R. et al. (1999) "Does pay for performance increase or
decrease perceived self-determination and intrinsic motivation?"
Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 77(5):1026-40:
http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1999-01257-010
Fiorillo, D. (2011) "Do monetary rewards crowd out intrinsic
motivations of volunteers? Some empirical evidence for Italian
volunteers" Annals of Public and Cooperative Economics Economics
82(2):139-65: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8292.2011.00434.x/abstract
Thompson, G.D., et al. (2010) "Does Paying Referees Expedite Reviews?
Results of a Natural Experiment" Economic Journal 76(3):678-92:
http://journal.southerneconomic.org/doi/abs/10.4284/sej.2010.76.3.678
Pine wrote:
>
>... I suggest that the IRC meeting may be a better forum than
> this mailing list for you to ask further questions.
I promised Gayle when she agreed to hold an office hour that I would
submit my questions weeks in advance so that there would be no
surprises, and I have done so. I don't want to reiterate any of them
until then, but if people continue to post what I believe are
mathematical or similar mistakes, I will certainly address those.
> We do know that this year the decay of fundraising from day to day was
> steeper than in past years, confirming that we were eating into out
> existing donor pool faster than before.
On the contrary, December 3rd was a stronger day than December 2nd,
with a much smaller maximum donation. All previous years when the
totals leveled out like that they stayed level +/- 20% for weeks.
I'm trying to sort out why the stated expectations were so much lower
than the prior measurements off-list.
James,
I think some of those questions would be good questions for Gayle for the
IRC meeting, but I will make a few comments.
I think that WMF does have some problems that it needs to address
that fall within the scope of work of HR. I don't work for WMF but
I would say that as a "customer" of their services I feel that lot
of the scores and and employee comments that were reflected in the
survey are generally aligned with what I believe their strengths and
weaknesses are as an organization. Therefore in response to your
first question I would say that I feel that the degree of anonymity
offered by the survey was sufficient to make employees feel
comfortable with providing candid feedback about what's good and
what needs improvement and that the perception of employees is
not radically different from the perspective of at least this
"customer", and I think this synchronicity is a good thing.
I think Erik addressed your question about pay in a way that is very
reasonable and I would ask you to re-read his comments on this topic at
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2012-December/123272.html
I get the impression from the December 2012 Metrics meeting that the
disconnect between exec survey responses and responses at other levels
in the org is very visible to the execs and I would expect them to address
this in a thoughtful and timely manner.
I suggest that the IRC meeting may be a better forum than
this mailing list for you to ask further questions.
Pine