These articles do look highly exaggerated. And, of course, for some guys saying they are afraid of being accused of harassment is just a new excuse for cutting women out of the loop. However, there is a real problem of people being overly sensitized to the issue due to over-regulation. This is largely the result of getting the government involved in legislating behavior. Instead of dealing with actual crimes (assault or persistent and dangerous stalking/threats) governments at all levels start defining obnoxious but not dangerous behavior in such a way that companies are afraid of big fines and big lawsuits. They therefore go overboard in dealing with issues that should be dealt with in a more informal manner. Consciousness raising and peer pressure are the way to deal with these issues. And women must have the courage to speak up against each incident. If we expect big brother/uncle sam/the daddy state to do it for us, we are inviting inevitable backlash. That doesn't mean we should not organize to have individual organizations, be it for-profits or non-profits like WMF, to make it clear such behavior is unacceptable. But they also should encourage individual initiative and peer pressure - and discourage obvious attempts to shut women out because of alleged fear of harassment accusations. On 10/3/2015 1:10 AM, rupert THURNER wrote: _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap

1) I really don't see the direct relevance of these to this list. 2) Consider the sources: a British newspaper so notorious for its sympathies to the Conservative Party and its associated politics that it's known informally as the Torygraph, and an American tabloid owned by Rupert Murdoch and known for similar politics. Daniel Case

Well, what I'd like to say is that some of these arguments do make sense. While men shouldn't get over-sensitive over perceived "harassment" of them, neither should women just whine about harassment.--Eat me, I'm an azuki

think about anger management in this context, what i suggested here: https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2015-September/005946.html ? or you think this is completely off ? rupert

On 5 October 2015 at 23:30, Carol Moore dc &lt;carolmooredc(a)verizon.net <mailto:carolmooredc@verizon.net>> wrote: On 10/5/2015 10:11 PM, rupert THURNER wrote: what do you think about anger management in this context, what i suggested here: https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2015-September/005946.html ? or you think this is completely off ? rupert Anger management is always a good idea. As long as it is not applied with a double standard - which it usually is. Please. Can we have some assumptions of good faith? Rupert is trying to reach out. RIsker

I didn't respond because responding to misogyny like "Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work" is pointless. Don't wrestle the pig, you just get muddy and the pig likes it. Ogress

On 10/4/2015 5:59 AM, Robert Williams wrote: The problem is is the double standard where women's actions are more easily perceived as uncivil and/or harassment and their complaints about incivility/harassment are labeled whining or even harassment. I got banned from Wikipedia for merely defending myself against constant harassment on the Gender Gap talk page and losing my temper a few times in Arbitration because of the massive harassment there by people I didn't even know. The guy who got Ibanned from me for harassment got NO other warning or sanction about it during arbitration. The guy who started a harassing article about me only got a warning. Only two of the several guys who worked together to harass and sabotage the talk page got warnings about it. By the way, "eat me, I'm an azuki" doesn't sound like a friendly message. Must I really do an internet search of the meaning of the term azuki? _______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap(a)lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap