So, to spin off from the post to this list this morning about women being heckled at a Wikimedia NYC meetup, I want to see if I can get a discussion started about chapter meetups and friendly spaces. This is long, but advice is desperately needed, so I'd appreciate people taking the time to read and offer any insight they have.
I've been discussing the Medium.com storyhttps://medium.com/better-humans/11acd4a7f44c with some members of WMNYC tonight, and it's becoming apparent that the heckling *did *happen, pretty much as described, and that while no one thinks what happened that day was right, no one knows what to do about it, either.
Wikimedia NYC has had some ongoing problems with women being treated oddly at their events (men staring/leering at women, and now men heckling women), and the chapter seems to be at a loss about how to deal with these issues at an institutional level. The best solution that's been tried so far has been targeted only at a particular person, with another man following the known ogler intending to intervene if he's noticed ogling, but of course men tend to quite understandably not be attuned to what behaviors make women uncomfortable, and people who are being watched tend to behave while being watched. At best, anyway, this solution can only address the behavior of a single person, and then only if a) we have the manpower to supervise the person and b) the watcher notices the behavior and c) the water actively intervenes to stop the behavior before it impacts an innocent meetup-goer or goers. This can't even begin to touch the issue of heckling or aggression toward women at a room- or meetup-level.
It's not enough. Wikimedia NYC is struggling with a lack of manpower at the best of times that makes it hard to have active moderation of events to prevent behavior like the heckling described in the Medium.com story and the unwanted attention I, among others, have been subjected to. There is also, in my personal view, a fair amount of institutional apathy from some - and only some, I want to make clear - of the chapter board and members which has made it difficult for anything to get done about this issues. I can't speak for other women in the chapter, but I've started staying away from events because I come away from them feeling...slimed.
Does anyone have experience implementing friendly space policies, especially in situations where volunteers numbers are extremely limited? How can we make these chapter meetups less offputting to women? If a chapter either can't or won't enforce friendly spaces for itself, is there any recourse above the chapter level?
-Fluff
Not sure if you do this stuff already, but a couple of quick suggestions:
1) Have them in enclosed spaces 2) Require advance registration 3) Work with space owners / managers to enforce a policy excluding non-registrants 4) Establish a policy that prohibits harassment or heckling, and empowers the chapter to bar those who violate the policy 5) Strongly and repeatedly encourage attendees to immediately report inappropriate behavior 6) Escort those behaving inappropriately to the door, revoke their registration, and bar them from future events
Just to follow up as another active WMNYC member: I do remember the presentation in question; however I don’t remember the heckling. This is not to say I doubt it happened, but I do recall being distracted by preparing for a presentation I was giving later and so my attention probably wasn’t fully on the events around me (in fact, I may have left the space I was in to better prepare in an empty room for some of that time). I can, however, very much confirm the situation Katherine describes down to the point that I know exactly who she’s talking about (a person whom, to complicate matters, has been known to be of late in very desperate financial straits and close to being homeless at times). I agree that what we have been able to do isn’t enough, because we don’t have the human resources to do much more. But Nathan’s suggestions are a great starting point for doing more, and certainly we could bring that up at the next board meeting. Daniel Case
I'm on vacation right now and lack the capacity to respond right now - but Karen I do have this experience. I will share soon with you.
I have had some super classic "men behaving badly" things happen to me at WMNYC events. Mainly with older participants (people old enough to be my grandfather!).
More soon. Stay strong!
Sarah On Jun 25, 2013 12:24 AM, "Katherine Casey" fluffernutter.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
So, to spin off from the post to this list this morning about women being heckled at a Wikimedia NYC meetup, I want to see if I can get a discussion started about chapter meetups and friendly spaces. This is long, but advice is desperately needed, so I'd appreciate people taking the time to read and offer any insight they have.
I've been discussing the Medium.com storyhttps://medium.com/better-humans/11acd4a7f44c with some members of WMNYC tonight, and it's becoming apparent that the heckling *did *happen, pretty much as described, and that while no one thinks what happened that day was right, no one knows what to do about it, either.
Wikimedia NYC has had some ongoing problems with women being treated oddly at their events (men staring/leering at women, and now men heckling women), and the chapter seems to be at a loss about how to deal with these issues at an institutional level. The best solution that's been tried so far has been targeted only at a particular person, with another man following the known ogler intending to intervene if he's noticed ogling, but of course men tend to quite understandably not be attuned to what behaviors make women uncomfortable, and people who are being watched tend to behave while being watched. At best, anyway, this solution can only address the behavior of a single person, and then only if a) we have the manpower to supervise the person and b) the watcher notices the behavior and c) the water actively intervenes to stop the behavior before it impacts an innocent meetup-goer or goers. This can't even begin to touch the issue of heckling or aggression toward women at a room- or meetup-level.
It's not enough. Wikimedia NYC is struggling with a lack of manpower at the best of times that makes it hard to have active moderation of events to prevent behavior like the heckling described in the Medium.com story and the unwanted attention I, among others, have been subjected to. There is also, in my personal view, a fair amount of institutional apathy from some
- and only some, I want to make clear - of the chapter board and members
which has made it difficult for anything to get done about this issues. I can't speak for other women in the chapter, but I've started staying away from events because I come away from them feeling...slimed.
Does anyone have experience implementing friendly space policies, especially in situations where volunteers numbers are extremely limited? How can we make these chapter meetups less offputting to women? If a chapter either can't or won't enforce friendly spaces for itself, is there any recourse above the chapter level?
-Fluff
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Fluff and Sarah,
This is an exceeding important topic. I apologize for not commenting sooner.
Our movement needs to step up and make it clear that we will not condone harassment.
More soon.
Sydney
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2013, at 3:27 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
I'm on vacation right now and lack the capacity to respond right now - but Karen I do have this experience. I will share soon with you.
I have had some super classic "men behaving badly" things happen to me at WMNYC events. Mainly with older participants (people old enough to be my grandfather!).
More soon. Stay strong!
Sarah
On Jun 25, 2013 12:24 AM, "Katherine Casey" fluffernutter.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
So, to spin off from the post to this list this morning about women being heckled at a Wikimedia NYC meetup, I want to see if I can get a discussion started about chapter meetups and friendly spaces. This is long, but advice is desperately needed, so I'd appreciate people taking the time to read and offer any insight they have.
I've been discussing the Medium.com story with some members of WMNYC tonight, and it's becoming apparent that the heckling did happen, pretty much as described, and that while no one thinks what happened that day was right, no one knows what to do about it, either.
Wikimedia NYC has had some ongoing problems with women being treated oddly at their events (men staring/leering at women, and now men heckling women), and the chapter seems to be at a loss about how to deal with these issues at an institutional level. The best solution that's been tried so far has been targeted only at a particular person, with another man following the known ogler intending to intervene if he's noticed ogling, but of course men tend to quite understandably not be attuned to what behaviors make women uncomfortable, and people who are being watched tend to behave while being watched. At best, anyway, this solution can only address the behavior of a single person, and then only if a) we have the manpower to supervise the person and b) the watcher notices the behavior and c) the water actively intervenes to stop the behavior before it impacts an innocent meetup-goer or goers. This can't even begin to touch the issue of heckling or aggression toward women at a room- or meetup-level.
It's not enough. Wikimedia NYC is struggling with a lack of manpower at the best of times that makes it hard to have active moderation of events to prevent behavior like the heckling described in the Medium.com story and the unwanted attention I, among others, have been subjected to. There is also, in my personal view, a fair amount of institutional apathy from some - and only some, I want to make clear - of the chapter board and members which has made it difficult for anything to get done about this issues. I can't speak for other women in the chapter, but I've started staying away from events because I come away from them feeling...slimed.
Does anyone have experience implementing friendly space policies, especially in situations where volunteers numbers are extremely limited? How can we make these chapter meetups less offputting to women? If a chapter either can't or won't enforce friendly spaces for itself, is there any recourse above the chapter level?
-Fluff
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On 6/26/2013 7:49 AM, Sydney wrote:
Fluff and Sarah,
This is an exceeding important topic. I apologize for not commenting sooner.
Our movement needs to step up and make it clear that we will not condone harassment.
More soon.
Sydney
I person just call back "No harassment please." or "Let the woman speak!"
Harassment within Wikipedia still continues, of course. I've been dealing with two individuals with an incredibly strong POV they've repeatedly stated violating all sorts of policies on a number of pages and having to take them repeatedly to noticeboards and having my points more or less confirmed ''when'' people bothered to respond at all. (Does being perceived as a female criticizing a probable male editor sometimes keep people from commenting, I wonder? Not always, but sometimes...)
One of them followed me to four pages they hadn't edited before within 30 hours. I couldn't find a "no harassment/wikihounding" template to put on this talk page so I had to make one up.
He denied it, of course, but he hasn't done it since.
Knock wood...
On 06/24/2013 06:23 PM, Katherine Casey wrote:
Does anyone have experience implementing friendly space policies, especially in situations where volunteers numbers are extremely limited? How can we make these chapter meetups less offputting to women? If a chapter either can't or won't enforce friendly spaces for itself, is there any recourse above the chapter level?
Excellent questions Katherine. I don't have any pat answers but, as I expect you are aware of, The Ada Iniative has created a template and the Geek Feminism wiki has a page on such questions as:
* Why have an anti-harassment policy? * But I shouldn't have to do this! * Adopting an anti-harassment policy * Advocating for a policy * Preparing to enforce the policy * ...
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy_resourc...
Hi there,
Is the problem and possible solutions being discussed on any other mailing lists or places?
Sydney
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2013, at 8:17 AM, Joseph Reagle joseph.2011@reagle.org wrote:
On 06/24/2013 06:23 PM, Katherine Casey wrote:
Does anyone have experience implementing friendly space policies, especially in situations where volunteers numbers are extremely limited? How can we make these chapter meetups less offputting to women? If a chapter either can't or won't enforce friendly spaces for itself, is there any recourse above the chapter level?
Excellent questions Katherine. I don't have any pat answers but, as I expect you are aware of, The Ada Iniative has created a template and the Geek Feminism wiki has a page on such questions as:
- Why have an anti-harassment policy?
- But I shouldn't have to do this!
- Adopting an anti-harassment policy
- Advocating for a policy
- Preparing to enforce the policy
- ...
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy_resourc...
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Why not push the AffCom to make safe events, with appropriate policies and enforcement, a condition of affiliation? That way, even recalcitrant organizations would have a strong incentive to take appropriate steps to establish event environments free of harassment, heckling, etc.
In general chapters and other organizations who are affiliating with WMF and receiving funding should have policies and programs that support diversity of the WikiMedia Foundation projects.
I could see a pattern of harassment at a chapter's events adversely effecting funding.
I ask chapters and other organizations in the WikiMedia Foundation family who are struggling to get a situation involving harassment under control to reach out to people who can help.
I'm interested in hearing an update on the progress the NYC Chapter is making.
Sydney
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 26, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
Why not push the AffCom to make safe events, with appropriate policies and enforcement, a condition of affiliation? That way, even recalcitrant organizations would have a strong incentive to take appropriate steps to establish event environments free of harassment, heckling, etc.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
To clarify, there was one rather obnoxious commenter at the beginning that day (the "typo for herstory" guy), and who we had eventually to shut up (and who was indeed also somewhat disruptive to a couple of other presentations later in the day).
However, to my impression I did not experience anything like a general negative reaction by the audience; indeed many women and men I talked later to found it to be the highlight of the conference.
(And in particular, I don't think I can understand Mr Brenner's rather strange interpretation of the applause for a well crafted Prezi-type presention.)
This is a very legitimate concern in general, however, and I certainly do agree the NYC chapter should look into adopting the best policies for an open and friendly environment (and borrowing what has worked for other movement partners), and this will be on our agenda for both the newly-elected board and members.
Thanks, Richard (User:Pharos)
On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Sydney sydney.poore@gmail.com wrote:
In general chapters and other organizations who are affiliating with WMF and receiving funding should have policies and programs that support diversity of the WikiMedia Foundation projects.
I could see a pattern of harassment at a chapter's events adversely effecting funding.
I ask chapters and other organizations in the WikiMedia Foundation family who are struggling to get a situation involving harassment under control to reach out to people who can help.
I'm interested in hearing an update on the progress the NYC Chapter is making.
Sydney
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 26, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
Why not push the AffCom to make safe events, with appropriate policies and enforcement, a condition of affiliation? That way, even recalcitrant organizations would have a strong incentive to take appropriate steps to establish event environments free of harassment, heckling, etc.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I've been following this discussion with interest, but have hesitated chiming in because I've never attended an NYC meetup and being in the Pacific Northwest, probably never will be. However, I've had some experience with this kind of thing, so I figured what the heck.
I've been involved in many groups in which this kind of thing (inappropriate behavior by males) has happened--churches, 12-Step groups, self-improvement organizations. These groups are usually voluntary organizations that tend to attract people (men and women) who have issues with social interaction and communication skills. As a result, many have never learned how to behave appropriately in public settings. I feel that Wikimedia also tends to attract these kinds of people--you know, the stereotypical geeky computer guys, who often lack in social skills.
For example, I was in a group recently in which a man drove away potential new members because he hit on every new woman who walked in the door. His behavior made it impossible for it to be a safe place for the growth and development of all its members. One time, he complimented me on my appearance during a meeting in front of everyone, which was inappropriate in that setting. I'm not shy about confronting people if necessary, so I called him on it immediately and publicly. I also felt confident that other members present would back me standing up for myself. Other boundaries were established and enforced with him, and eventually, he left the group.
There was a time in the history of this group when it was unhealthy enough to allow that kind of behavior, and the membership shrunk as a result. I strongly believe that healthy groups attract healthy people. Conversely, unhealthy people avoid healthy groups. It's also often the case that it takes just one or two toxic people to make groups toxic, and sometimes the only way to make a healthy group is to rout them out. Yes, you want to be inclusive, but that doesn't mean you should allow inappropriate behavior, because that ultimately kills a group. I've seen it happen too many times.
My recommendation, based on my experience, is to confront the offenders and if necessary, give them the choice of behaving appropriately or leaving. Set and enforce boundaries; if they refuse, kick them out of the group. This is necessary if you want your meetings to be safe places for everyone, men and women.
Christine User:Figureskatingfan
On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Pharos pharosofalexandria@gmail.comwrote:
To clarify, there was one rather obnoxious commenter at the beginning that day (the "typo for herstory" guy), and who we had eventually to shut up (and who was indeed also somewhat disruptive to a couple of other presentations later in the day).
However, to my impression I did not experience anything like a general negative reaction by the audience; indeed many women and men I talked later to found it to be the highlight of the conference.
(And in particular, I don't think I can understand Mr Brenner's rather strange interpretation of the applause for a well crafted Prezi-type presention.)
This is a very legitimate concern in general, however, and I certainly do agree the NYC chapter should look into adopting the best policies for an open and friendly environment (and borrowing what has worked for other movement partners), and this will be on our agenda for both the newly-elected board and members.
Thanks, Richard (User:Pharos)
On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Sydney sydney.poore@gmail.com wrote:
In general chapters and other organizations who are affiliating with WMF and receiving funding should have policies and programs that support diversity of the WikiMedia Foundation projects.
I could see a pattern of harassment at a chapter's events adversely effecting funding.
I ask chapters and other organizations in the WikiMedia Foundation family who are struggling to get a situation involving harassment under control to reach out to people who can help.
I'm interested in hearing an update on the progress the NYC Chapter is making.
Sydney
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 26, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:
Why not push the AffCom to make safe events, with appropriate policies and enforcement, a condition of affiliation? That way, even recalcitrant organizations would have a strong incentive to take appropriate steps to establish event environments free of harassment, heckling, etc.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap