This situation from earlier today has already been resolved, so no drama is necessary, but I thought I would post one of the diffs here as an example for discussion: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Beria&diff=next...
I think this is a good example of the "unwanted attention" problem that I've heard about from several female editors. Generally, when people talk about sexist behavior on Wikipedia, they tend to think of misogynistic behavior, but I think the unwanted attention/stalking problem may be just as important. Have others on the list experienced this problem? How did it affect you? How did you deal with it? Any ideas for how it can be addressed systematically?
Ryan Kaldari
Hmmm. Looking at the edit summaries of talk pages of a couple of editors who write exclusively on the Israel-Palestine issue, as opposed to me who just gets sucked into a few specific articles over and over, usually BLP-related for individuals or organizations...I seem to have a lot more nasty comments on my talk page and article talk pages that had to be deleted by admins, especially the last six months.
And I won't even start discussing the emails I've gotten through wiki-email.
At least on one article I've devoted a lot of time to lately there are a few women engaging in the heated disputes with each other :-)
On 8/24/2011 6:55 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
This situation from earlier today has already been resolved, so no drama is necessary, but I thought I would post one of the diffs here as an example for discussion: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Beria&diff=next...
I think this is a good example of the "unwanted attention" problem that I've heard about from several female editors. Generally, when people talk about sexist behavior on Wikipedia, they tend to think of misogynistic behavior, but I think the unwanted attention/stalking problem may be just as important. Have others on the list experienced this problem? How did it affect you? How did you deal with it? Any ideas for how it can be addressed systematically?
Ryan Kaldari
(prepares to expose herself a bit, and....breaths)
I have absolutely dealt with this behavior. While no one has openly left comments on my talk pages, I have been told a few strange things in my day as a Wikipedian. From "I'll help you because I think you're hot" (paraphrasing - I was actually judged on a "1 to 10" rating system by a group of Wikipedians) to stalking comments from banned users like "you're so hot I'd like you to have my babies."
The only power I have right now is a delete or ignore button. For me, I just keep on keepin on, because *I expect people to be direspectful and sexist to me on Wikipedia*. The only thing I can do is to them otherwise, speak my mind and say what I think, which I'm rather good at. I also rely strongly on, to be honest, fellow editors - primarily men - who speak up on my behalf. The few women I know who I consider "really good friends" on Wikipedia aren't involved in any aspect of the gender gap, and aren't as proactive or opinionated as me. Which, I guess gets me into more trouble than usual. Often these "situations" are as common as the sexism I might experience in the real world, outside of work - but, Wikipedia...it's sort of work for me, right now.
To be honest, I have a terribly low selfesteem when it comes to my work in Wikimedia - whether it's thinking I should apply for a job or fellowship, or it's applying for an admin position, or just speaking up in certain topics. I feel that I'm not tech savvy enough, and it's really intimidating since so much of the culture is based around that. It's also intimidating, in general. Just like any other geek world - whether it's playing online RPGs (yes, I've dabbled a bit) or having acquaintances who do society for creative anarchonism (aka play dress up like dungeons and dragons characters) - they assume because of my name I am one thing. The only thing I can do is prove them wrong, including the women sometimes too.
I often channel my anger into changing things. But, when I think about my own experiences, I have no idea what to to do about them.
-Sarah
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkaldari@wikimedia.orgwrote:
This situation from earlier today has already been resolved, so no drama is necessary, but I thought I would post one of the diffs here as an example for discussion:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Beria&diff=next...
I think this is a good example of the "unwanted attention" problem that I've heard about from several female editors. Generally, when people talk about sexist behavior on Wikipedia, they tend to think of misogynistic behavior, but I think the unwanted attention/stalking problem may be just as important. Have others on the list experienced this problem? How did it affect you? How did you deal with it? Any ideas for how it can be addressed systematically?
Ryan Kaldari
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
First, note per my last message on stalkers, obviously the other editors on the issue in question were assumed to be or admittedly male.
I identify with below. Some women are just more diplomatic than we may be; others have unconsciously gotten into the habit of always apologizing for opining - though theose often may be more likely to leave.
What's funny is on a current article I originally thought two aggressive editors, one of whom even attacked me bringing up an old block to try to keep me from editing, turned out to be women. However, they are editing on an article where the top allows them to actualize the role of the female bear protecting her cubs.
Also, while it can be frustrating, I don't let my lack of tech saavy let me feel bad. Better to carp that the tech savvies should make it easier for the rest of us and get them to admit you are right! :-)
On 8/24/2011 8:09 PM, Sarah Stierch wrote:
The only power I have right now is a delete or ignore button. For me, I just keep on keepin on, because *I expect people to be direspectful and sexist to me on Wikipedia*. The only thing I can do is to them otherwise, speak my mind and say what I think, which I'm rather good at. I also rely strongly on, to be honest, fellow editors - primarily men - who speak up on my behalf. The few women I know who I consider "really good friends" on Wikipedia aren't involved in any aspect of the gender gap, and aren't as proactive or opinionated as me. Which, I guess gets me into more trouble than usual. Often these "situations" are as common as the sexism I might experience in the real world, outside of work - but, Wikipedia...it's sort of work for me, right now.
To be honest, I have a terribly low selfesteem when it comes to my work in Wikimedia - whether it's thinking I should apply for a job or fellowship, or it's applying for an admin position, or just speaking up in certain topics. I feel that I'm not tech savvy enough, and it's really intimidating since so much of the culture is based around that. It's also intimidating, in general. Just like any other geek world - whether it's playing online RPGs (yes, I've dabbled a bit) or having acquaintances who do society for creative anarchonism (aka play dress up like dungeons and dragons characters) - they assume because of my name I am one thing. The only thing I can do is prove them wrong, including the women sometimes too.
I often channel my anger into changing things. But, when I think about my own experiences, I have no idea what to to do about them.
-Sarah
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 7:52 PM, carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
First, note per my last message on stalkers, obviously the other editors on the issue in question were assumed to be or admittedly male.
I identify with below. Some women are just more diplomatic than we may be; others have unconsciously gotten into the habit of always apologizing for opining - though theose often may be more likely to leave.
I even sometimes find myself apologetic, however, I have never found myself apologetic for going off on a jerk (regardless of gender), however, it does get tiring, and sometimes you just feel like giving up. All the more reason why community is so important. I'm tired of people telling me that I'm "canvasing" by telling my friends and colleagues that myself or someone or a topic is being unfairly treated or disrespected. A cry or call for help is not canvassing, it's bringing awareness.
What's funny is on a current article I originally thought two aggressive editors, one of whom even attacked me bringing up an old block to try to keep me from editing, turned out to be women. However, they are editing on an article where the top allows them to actualize the role of the female bear protecting her cubs.
Yes, it's not always men who are bullies and jerks on Wikipedia. "Jerks can be jerks regardless of gender!" :D But, it does show you how our minds work - we're so used to males bullying "us" or disrespecting us on Wikipedia, that when you find out it's a woman it's even harder to take sometimes. Ha!
Also, while it can be frustrating, I don't let my lack of tech saavy let me feel bad. Better to carp that the tech savvies should make it easier for the rest of us and get them to admit you are right! :-)
I wish I could say that. People often seem surprised to find out that I'm really self conscious about it. Even though I have been using technology longer than most people who are my age, and I've often been described as being "on top of it"; the more I have become involved in Wikimedia the more self conscious I have become and I've realized I don't know as much as people think. I can fake it until I make it at times, but, tech is not one of those places. It's been frustrating for me as someone involved in planning Wikimania 2012, I have no clue who half the key note speakers recommended to me were.
"Ok, and who is Tim Berners-Lee?" "Uh, he only invented the internet" "..."
-Sarah
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stierch@gmail.com wrote:
To be honest, I have a terribly low selfesteem when it comes to my work in Wikimedia - whether it's thinking I should apply for a job or fellowship, or it's applying for an admin position, or just speaking up in certain topics. I feel that I'm not tech savvy enough, and it's really intimidating since so much of the culture is based around that. It's also intimidating, in general.
I think you'd make a darned fine admin, and would be glad to support you. We need more than just the technogeeks; indeed, virtually ZERO of what I do as an admin is technogeekery.
Just like any other geek world - whether it's playing online RPGs (yes, I've dabbled a bit) or having acquaintances who do society for creative anarchonism (aka play dress up like dungeons and dragons characters)
I'm a historian by training, and can assure you that the Society for Creative Anachronism is NOT about dressing up like D & D characters. (I've only been in the S.C.A. for 40 years now, and playing D&D for 36.)
On Aug 25, 2011, at 5:51 AM, "Michael J. Lowrey" orangemike@gmail.com wrote:
I think you'd make a darned fine admin, and would be glad to support you. We need more than just the technogeeks; indeed, virtually ZERO of what I do as an admin is technogeekery.
We shall see...good to know all skills or "types" are needed and warranted.
I'm a historian by training, and can assure you that the Society for Creative Anachronism is NOT about dressing up like D & D characters. (I've only been in the S.C.A. for 40 years now, and playing D&D for 36.)
I didn't mean any offense by my comments. Sometimes I forget SCA does historical, there is another group that does fantasy. I have friends who do both! (hell, my first job was at a role playing game store in high school. :D)
Thanks for the clarification!
Sarah
-- Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey a/k/a Lord Inali of Tanasi, G.D.H.
"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes." -- Desiderius Erasmus
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
I think you'd make a darned fine admin, and would be glad to support you. We need more than just the technogeeks; indeed, virtually ZERO of what I do as an admin is technogeekery.
+1, Sarah (and I say this with even more conviction having met you in person). Wasn't there some data recently showing that women who become admins are actually more likely to stick with it?
Daniel Case
On Thursday, August 25, 2011, Daniel and Elizabeth Case wrote:
+1, Sarah (and I say this with even more conviction having met you in person). Wasn't there some data recently showing that women who become admins are actually more likely to stick with it?
[[ http://www.grouplens.org/system/files/wp-gender-wikisym2011.pdf
Returning to table 4, we see that overall, a greater proportion of males than females become administrators. However, one major factor in successfully becoming an administrator is having a substantial edit count, and we know from our earlier results that females are more likely to leave Wikipedia before accumulating many edits. If we restrict our analysis to users who have at least 2,000 edits (all but five administrators have over 2,000 edits),the tables are turned. Within this group of dedicated Wikipedians,females are actually significantly more likely to become administrators than their male counterparts. We also performed the same comparison using thresholds of 1,000 and 4,000 edits and obtained the same qualitative result.
]]