Hello,
I found this:
http://www.zdnet.com/quoras-misogyny-problem-a-cautionary-tale-7000030762/
an interesting read.
Cheers,
Delphine
On 6/22/2014 7:04 PM, Delphine Ménard wrote:
Hello,
I found this:
http://www.zdnet.com/quoras-misogyny-problem-a-cautionary-tale-7000030762/
an interesting read.
Cheers,
Delphine
Thanks for this. I wasn't even aware of this site.
There goes the theory that making editors register with their real names - or at least having to give them to admins should they act up obnoxiously - might solve the problem.
Quote from articles: " Sites that care can educate their admins and mods about online harassment, on detecting racist and sexist language, on conflict resolution and conflict diffusion, target and non-target status, and backhanded attacks (aka "poisoning the well")."
That WOULD be a real good start.
But women have to demand it. It's really all about the willingness to raise a fuss. Some small groupings in wikipeida do it and thereby not only have bad actions/words/ideas removed post haste, but enjoy undue tolerance for their making exaggerated or trumped up claims of bigotry in order to get their way in articles with only occasional consequences. However, hint that there's something called "sexism" involved in various situations and one is ignored, scorned for making false charges, or told they just can't handle it or are obnoxious and should just leave Wikipedia.
A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!
Can you hear a pin dropping?
CM
Hm, we've discussed that author before... oh well.
What I found that could be of use for us: «giving us back our ability to make boundaries [...] shouldn't let strangers message strangers, and all sites and apps should allow users to block others. [...] A block should be across all site functions». I think we're already ok in that regard.
«Most guys don't think about being sized up for sexual value as the first thing anyone judges about them everywhere they go» is an argument that always makes me think but it's at least hetero-centric (on Wikimedia projects the balance might be on the opposite side, who knows). MediaWiki's mostly impersonal interaction helps a lot here.
Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34:
A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!
By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal women.
Nemo
Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!
By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal women.
Nemo
Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this discussion is going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all here?
From the Mailing list signup page:
"Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects.
Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in Wikipedia and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to collectively address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are focused on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of women and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage you to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this regard matter to us and to the community."
Thank you, Derric Atzrott
Did this really just happen?
Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not participating as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle suggestion of the cause being that they didn't feel this group is completely woman-friendly -- and your response was to "remind us" what the point of this group is about? Did I misunderstand your email?
We're all here for the same goal, but some of us experience this problem differently than others, and some appear to have gone frustrated and annoyed and are not participating as much as they used to. That's a problem. That's not something we should ignore. And we should figure out why it happens (because it seemed to have happened to more than just two arguing women) and how to make sure it is getting better.
Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at least in this mailing list, to make things a tad better for women to participate in:
In a group about the gender gap, men should attempt to take a step back. That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or generalizations.
The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions.
And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like they need to constantly defend the "reasons" for their experiences and feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual experience.
Moriel
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Derric Atzrott < datzrott@alizeepathology.com> wrote:
Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!
By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal
women.
Nemo
Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this discussion is going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all here?
From the Mailing list signup page: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects.
Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in Wikipedia and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to collectively address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are focused on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of women and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage you to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this regard matter to us and to the community."
Thank you, Derric Atzrott
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Moriel,
I meant no offense. My reason for posting that email was that I was feeling uncomfortable with the direction that the discussion was going. I intentionally left my email non-specific in an attempt to prevent offense to anyone. I think you may have misunderstood me.
“A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!”
This comment to me comes off as exactly the opposite of the sort of thing that I would want to see on this list. We are here to cooperate on reducing the gender-gap and this means that we should all work civilly together to do so. This comment to me sounds very similar to some of the common things that I see men say towards or around women. I can understand the frustration that might be being felt in that comment. I would love to see more outspokenness myself even. The topic of the gender gap and the way that women are treated online, in person, and on Wikimedia is a real problem that a lot of people try to push under the rug. I think that the majority of the men on this list though are here because we recognise it is an issue and would like to do something about it. I felt that the comment was worded in such a way that it alienated the people like myself who are completely disturbed by the gender gap problem and are trying very hard to try to understand and work on fixing it. To put it another way: “but that stopped after a bunch of women joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!” wouldn’t be appropriate on-wiki, and I don’t think that this comment was appropriate here.
“By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal women.”
This comment also creates a hostile environment that I don’t think is conducive to unsurprisingly is not conducive to resolving the hostile environment problem. This reply reminded me of how shouting matches begin. The thread is not an argument about which gender on-list makes the place the most hostile. This comment made me just as uncomfortable as the one made before it.
My intention was to remind everyone that this is a list for discussion of the gender gap and ways to fix it. It is not a list for shouting at each other, which is what I felt was about to happen. I was trying to diffuse a situation that in my mind could have gotten out of hand. It appears instead I just managed to bugger things up, for which I apologise.
“That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or generalizations.”
I hope this email doesn’t fall into that sort of category. My original email was intentionally non-confrontational, or at least that was my intention. I may have done a poor job at the execution.
“The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like they need to constantly defend the ‘reasons’ for their experiences and feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual experience.”
Agreed. Also, for the record, Violet Blue is a great writer in my opinion.
Thank you,
Derric Atzrott
From: gendergap-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:gendergap-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Moriel Schottlender Sent: 23 June 2014 11:23 To: Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects. Subject: Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
Did this really just happen?
Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not participating as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle suggestion of the cause being that they didn't feel this group is completely woman-friendly -- and your response was to "remind us" what the point of this group is about? Did I misunderstand your email?
We're all here for the same goal, but some of us experience this problem differently than others, and some appear to have gone frustrated and annoyed and are not participating as much as they used to. That's a problem. That's not something we should ignore. And we should figure out why it happens (because it seemed to have happened to more than just two arguing women) and how to make sure it is getting better.
Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at least in this mailing list, to make things a tad better for women to participate in:
In a group about the gender gap, men should attempt to take a step back.
That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or generalizations.
The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions.
And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like they need to constantly defend the "reasons" for their experiences and feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual experience.
Moriel
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Derric Atzrott datzrott@alizeepathology.com wrote:
Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!
By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal women.
Nemo
Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this discussion is going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all here?
From the Mailing list signup page:
"Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects.
Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in Wikipedia and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to collectively address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are focused on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of women and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage you to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this regard matter to us and to the community."
Thank you, Derric Atzrott
_______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Responding to this on my phone, so please excuse what I assume will be wonky formatting/quoting, but:
Derric, you say you hope your email didn't come across as shouting over the women or generalizing about them, but to me it did (and I say this not just to make you feel bad - I see you've already apologized in another thread - but to make a larger point). This is something women online In general, and women on this list especially, in my experience, face very often: a discussion about how we feel unwelcome and talked over is responded to by a man saying, "now, now, let's not be mean and hurt men's feelings" or "well that's not what I intended!"or all this argument won't fix anything!" When was the last time someone stepped into a conversation among men and said "Oh now boys, stop being so mean" or "you're hurting my feelings by talking about something that needs to be fixed, I insist you stop"? It's a condescending approach that is pretty much only deployed against women, this sense that fighting, or even disagreeing in a way that makes men feel like imperfect allies, is somehow unseemly and should be stopped. And again, I don't think you intended condescension, but the world condescends using those same terms/arguments.
Though the words may be the same, "i stopped posting because men started shouting over me" and "i stopped posting because women started shouting over me" come from very different places and mean very different thing to the people involved in those sentences. Similarly, to respond to something someone else said, is NOT an equivalent experience for two women to be "vocal" in disagreement and a man to find it unattractive/annoying and thus tune it out, and for women to stop speaking because they feel that whenever they share their experiences, men jump in to say "yes but" and derail the conversation. One results in a man rolling his eyes; the other results in women literally feeling unsafe and unwelcome in a discussion space.
Part of being a productive ally is a willingness to listen to and believe experiences people tell you about, even when hearing them feels like you're being confronted about something you didn't personally do. On Jun 23, 2014 11:47 AM, "Derric Atzrott" datzrott@alizeepathology.com wrote:
Moriel,
I meant no offense. My reason for posting that email was that I was feeling uncomfortable with the direction that the discussion was going. I intentionally left my email non-specific in an attempt to prevent offense to anyone. I think you may have misunderstood me.
“A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!”
This comment to me comes off as exactly the opposite of the sort of thing that I would want to see on this list. We are here to cooperate on reducing the gender-gap and this means that we should all work civilly together to do so. This comment to me sounds very similar to some of the common things that I see men say towards or around women. I can understand the frustration that might be being felt in that comment. I would love to see more outspokenness myself even. The topic of the gender gap and the way that women are treated online, in person, and on Wikimedia is a real problem that a lot of people try to push under the rug. I think that the majority of the men on this list though are here because we recognise it is an issue and would like to do something about it. I felt that the comment was worded in such a way that it alienated the people like myself who are completely disturbed by the gender gap problem and are trying very hard to try to understand and work on fixing it. To put it another way: “but that stopped after a bunch of women joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!” wouldn’t be appropriate on-wiki, and I don’t think that this comment was appropriate here.
“By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal women.”
This comment also creates a hostile environment that I don’t think is conducive to unsurprisingly is not conducive to resolving the hostile environment problem. This reply reminded me of how shouting matches begin. The thread is not an argument about which gender on-list makes the place the most hostile. This comment made me just as uncomfortable as the one made before it.
My intention was to remind everyone that this is a list for discussion of the gender gap and ways to fix it. It is not a list for shouting at each other, which is what I felt was about to happen. I was trying to diffuse a situation that in my mind could have gotten out of hand. It appears instead I just managed to bugger things up, for which I apologise.
“That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or generalizations.”
I hope this email doesn’t fall into that sort of category. My original email was intentionally non-confrontational, or at least that was my intention. I may have done a poor job at the execution.
“The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like they need to constantly defend the ‘reasons’ for their experiences and feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual experience.”
Agreed. Also, for the record, Violet Blue is a great writer in my opinion.
Thank you,
Derric Atzrott
*From:* gendergap-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: gendergap-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Moriel Schottlender *Sent:* 23 June 2014 11:23 *To:* Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects. *Subject:* Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
Did this really just happen?
Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not participating as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle suggestion of the cause being that they didn't feel this group is completely woman-friendly -- and your response was to "remind us" what the point of this group is about? Did I misunderstand your email?
We're all here for the same goal, but some of us experience this problem differently than others, and some appear to have gone frustrated and annoyed and are not participating as much as they used to. That's a problem. That's not something we should ignore. And we should figure out why it happens (because it seemed to have happened to more than just two arguing women) and how to make sure it is getting better.
Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at least in this mailing list, to make things a tad better for women to participate in:
In a group about the gender gap, men should attempt to take a step back.
That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or generalizations.
The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions.
And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like they need to constantly defend the "reasons" for their experiences and feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual experience.
Moriel
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Derric Atzrott < datzrott@alizeepathology.com> wrote:
Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!
By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal
women.
Nemo
Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this discussion is going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all here?
From the Mailing list signup page: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects.
Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in Wikipedia and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to collectively address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are focused on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of women and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage you to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this regard matter to us and to the community."
Thank you, Derric Atzrott
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
--
No trees were harmed in the creation of this post.
But billions of electrons, photons, and electromagnetic waves were terribly inconvenienced during its transmission!
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Derric,
I meant no offense. My reason for posting that email was that I was feeling uncomfortable with the direction that the discussion was going. I intentionally left my email non-specific in an attempt to prevent offense to anyone. I think you may have misunderstood me.
That's why I opted to being only slightly sarcastic and not come at you with a 10-tonne brick. I assumed you didn't mean offense, but that's why I wrote the paragraph about men having to take a step back; sometimes it's hard (especially in these types of lists) to notice how some comments come out, especially to a group that is already used to being marginalized, attacked and generalized just for speaking up. And even more especially when comments come up about pointing out *problems* with the way things currently work.
Just food for thought.
“A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!”
This comment to me comes off as exactly the opposite of the sort of thing that I would want to see on this list. We are here to cooperate on reducing the gender-gap and this means that we should all work civilly together to do so.
That's part of the problem, though, Derric. You should understand that despite its sarcasm, this comment may actually have merrit -- which means it's pointing out a problem that this mailing list *is* the place to fix. We shouldn't avoid these, we should celebrate them and insist on trying to understand why they were said, and what is the underlying problem.
The tone of that statement, too, is telling; it's showing the attitude of several women (on and off this mailing list) about participating in discussions about the gender gap. We need to move beyond our defensive nature as online posters, and try to read things as they are: Women are frustrated and many seemed to have lost their fire to argue these discussions.
This didn't happen in a bubble, and it didn't happen because women don't care. Something made this happen, and while it isn't necessarily a single person (and definitely not meant to come as a personal attack at you, Derric) it *is* worth listening to, and explored into.
This comment to me sounds very similar to some of the common things that I see men say towards or around women. I can understand the frustration that might be being felt in that comment. I would love to see more outspokenness myself even. The topic of the gender gap and the way that women are treated online, in person, and on Wikimedia is a real problem that a lot of people try to push under the rug. I think that the majority of the men on this list though are here because we recognise it is an issue and would like to do something about it. I felt that the comment was worded in such a way that it alienated the people like myself who are completely disturbed by the gender gap problem and are trying very hard to try to understand and work on fixing it. To put it another way: “but that stopped after a bunch of women joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!” wouldn’t be appropriate on-wiki, and I don’t think that this comment was appropriate here.
We would all love to see more outspokenness too. The fact it died out should mean something prevents it from prospering. I think that we can allow a bit of sarcastic frustration to live without shutting the speaker down in a list that is dedicated to the issue, when it is clearly alive and well (even if it shouldn't be) everywhere else from men confronting women.
Reality isn't equal just yet, so the need to equally shoot down "both sides" that are sarcastic is noble, but somewhat against the point at the moment.
I hope this email doesn’t fall into that sort of category. My original
email was intentionally non-confrontational, or at least that was my intention. I may have done a poor job at the execution.
Conversations don't always need to be quiet and polite, especially since they're *not* either one of those on Wikipedia, which is what we're talking about here. Part of my comment about taking a step back was also to say that we should be quite a bit more lenient towards women-voices on this list, even if they are raising issues we don't like to delve into, or even if they're frustrated, because that's the only way we can make this list comfortable for women to actually discuss things *openly* here.
Women are saturated with attitudes that contain tons of pre-judgment, aggression and defensiveness, almost everywhere online (as the original article points out too) -- it's no surprise that many women who've been active in these areas are feeling frustrated and don't *trust* the medium. We need to encourage those voices to come up, so we can discuss them openly, and these issues often involve very personal experiences that are very bad.
Let me try to explain my point using a different topic (and I do hope I don't offend anyone with it)
As a Caucasian person, I will be very careful of what judgments and comments (and tone) I put in my responses when I participate in a discussion about racism, because I am very well aware that I don't really know what it's like to live with racism against me throughout my life. In that aspect, I am very privileged, and while I want to change things very much, I know *I* won't have answers until I allow the people who experience this to feel comfortable speaking up.
It should be the same in a group discussing the gender gap. Participating is important, but the voices of the ones who go through the harassment and attacks should be allowed -- and encouraged -- to be the focus of the discussion, and we should make it a point to make sure we delve into what was actually said despite the tone.
Moriel
“The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like they need to constantly defend the ‘reasons’ for their experiences and feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual experience.”
Agreed. Also, for the record, Violet Blue is a great writer in my opinion.
Thank you,
Derric Atzrott
*From:* gendergap-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: gendergap-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Moriel Schottlender *Sent:* 23 June 2014 11:23 *To:* Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects. *Subject:* Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
Did this really just happen?
Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not participating as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle suggestion of the cause being that they didn't feel this group is completely woman-friendly -- and your response was to "remind us" what the point of this group is about? Did I misunderstand your email?
We're all here for the same goal, but some of us experience this problem differently than others, and some appear to have gone frustrated and annoyed and are not participating as much as they used to. That's a problem. That's not something we should ignore. And we should figure out why it happens (because it seemed to have happened to more than just two arguing women) and how to make sure it is getting better.
Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at least in this mailing list, to make things a tad better for women to participate in:
In a group about the gender gap, men should attempt to take a step back.
That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or generalizations.
The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions.
And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like they need to constantly defend the "reasons" for their experiences and feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual experience.
Moriel
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Derric Atzrott < datzrott@alizeepathology.com> wrote:
Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!
By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal
women.
Nemo
Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this discussion is going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all here?
From the Mailing list signup page: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects.
Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in Wikipedia and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to collectively address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are focused on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of women and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage you to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this regard matter to us and to the community."
Thank you, Derric Atzrott
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
--
No trees were harmed in the creation of this post.
But billions of electrons, photons, and electromagnetic waves were terribly inconvenienced during its transmission!
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On 6/23/2014 11:45 AM, Derric Atzrott wrote:
This comment to me comes off as exactly the opposite of the sort of thing that I would want to see on this list. We are here to cooperate on reducing the gender-gap and this means that we should all work civilly together to do so.
Over the last two years I have made a number of constructive suggestions to increase female participation, a few are below, plus some new ones that occur as I write:
* bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense * take complaints about harassment in general more seriously * Have a "class action" Arbitration on Sexism/Double standards so that discretionary sanctions could be imposed on obvious incidents * (new one) quota of 1/3 women admins and 1/3 women arbitrators (and other positions?) * (new one) A GenderGap wikiproject on every wiki, since it can be troublesome having to go all the way to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap to contact women about what to do with specific issues; (wikiprojects like feminism and gender and womens studies more article and policy related than recruitment and problem solving related)
The archives probably have other early suggestions by women I've forgotten. Now a days the only alternatives seem to be doing studies, counting numbers, posting mainstream media articles about what Wikipedia is allegedly doing and links to problematic articles.
Not enough to solve the problem.
* bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense
Would support wholeheartedly.
* take complaints about harassment in general more seriously
Also would support wholeheartedly.
* Have a "class action" Arbitration on Sexism/Double standards so that discretionary sanctions could be imposed on obvious incidents
Strong support.
* (new one) quota of 1/3 women admins and 1/3 women arbitrators (and other positions?)
I'm not sure this would be enforceable, but I would highly support encouraging more women to take up these positions. The process for becoming an admin or arbitrator really needs some work as well. From what I understand becoming an admin is hellish. People dig through everything you've ever done and call you out on anything going all the way back to the beginning of time. It might not actually be that way, I've not really participated in them, but if it is, that is a problem and probably a big deterrent to a great deal of folks.
* (new one) A GenderGap wikiproject on every wiki, since it can be troublesome having to go all the way to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap to contact women about what to do with specific issues; (wikiprojects like feminism and gender and womens studies more article and policy related than recruitment and problem solving related)
Would support. Given that many people don't ever leave their homewiki, and a lot of new people probably don't even know Meta exists, this could be highly beneficial.
The archives probably have other early suggestions by women I've forgotten. Now a days the only alternatives seem to be doing studies, counting numbers, posting mainstream media articles about what Wikipedia is allegedly doing and links to problematic articles.
Not enough to solve the problem.
Studies are useful. This particular study shows promise I think: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Women_and_Wikipedia For allies these sorts of things help us understand what we are actually trying to accomplish and metrics are useful for determining if we've actually made any progress. It is hard to quantitatively measure a culture though. This sort of research also publicises the problem, which is something that there can never be enough of I think.
Maybe it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas. If no one else does, I'd be happy to.
Thank you, Derric Atzrott
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Derric Atzrott < datzrott@alizeepathology.com> wrote:
- bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to
got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense
Would support wholeheartedly.
The problem with Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance was the same as the problem with AN/I. As soon as someone took a complaint to Wikiquette_assistance people like Baseball Bugs would make fun of them for being too sensitive and it would basically turn into forum for criticizing the person who complained. No one at Wikiquette_assistance took complaints seriously, so it just ended up making things more frustrating for the person who was being harassed.
If we want a forum that is more effective, I think we should adopt some of the ideas from the Teahouse. Primarily, by having the responders be vetted volunteers that are expected to provide a minimum level of helpfulness. All the peanut gallery responders who are just there for the lulz should be banned.
Ryan Kaldari
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Derric Atzrott < datzrott@alizeepathology.com> wrote:
- bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to
got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense
Would support wholeheartedly.
- take complaints about harassment in general more seriously
Also would support wholeheartedly.
- Have a "class action" Arbitration on Sexism/Double standards so that
discretionary sanctions could be imposed on obvious incidents
Strong support.
- (new one) quota of 1/3 women admins and 1/3 women arbitrators (and other
positions?)
I’m not sure this would be enforceable, but I would highly support encouraging more women to take up these positions. The process for becoming an admin or arbitrator really needs some work as well. From what I understand becoming an admin is hellish. People dig through everything you’ve ever done and call you out on anything going all the way back to the beginning of time. It might not actually be that way, I’ve not really participated in them, but if it is, that is a problem and probably a big deterrent to a great deal of folks.
- (new one) A GenderGap wikiproject on every wiki, since it can be
troublesome having to go all the way to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap to contact women about what to do with specific issues; (wikiprojects like feminism and gender and womens studies more article and policy related than recruitment and problem solving related)
Would support. Given that many people don’t ever leave their homewiki, and a lot of new people probably don’t even know Meta exists, this could be highly beneficial.
The archives probably have other early suggestions by women I've forgotten. Now a days the only alternatives seem to be doing studies, counting numbers, posting mainstream media articles about what Wikipedia is allegedly doing and links to problematic articles.
Not enough to solve the problem.
Studies are useful. This particular study shows promise I think: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Women_and_Wikipedia For allies these sorts of things help us understand what we are actually trying to accomplish and metrics are useful for determining if we’ve actually made any progress. It is hard to quantitatively measure a culture though. This sort of research also publicises the problem, which is something that there can never be enough of I think.
Maybe it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas. If no one else does, I’d be happy to.
Thank you, Derric Atzrott
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On 6/23/2014 2:19 PM, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Derric Atzrott <datzrott@alizeepathology.com mailto:datzrott@alizeepathology.com> wrote:
* bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense Would support wholeheartedly.The problem with Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance was the same as the problem with AN/I. As soon as someone took a complaint to Wikiquette_assistance people like Baseball Bugs would make fun of them for being too sensitive and it would basically turn into forum for criticizing the person who complained. No one at Wikiquette_assistance took complaints seriously, so it just ended up making things more frustrating for the person who was being harassed.
If we want a forum that is more effective, I think we should adopt some of the ideas from the Teahouse. Primarily, by having the responders be vetted volunteers that are expected to provide a minimum level of helpfulness. All the peanut gallery responders who are just there for the lulz should be banned.
Ryan Kaldari
Would they also make friendly comments to worst offenders? That would help. What would it be called, something like "Civility help"? (Just a thought to get people thinking.)
Or that might be a Gender Gap project function.
Having a place where incidents of double standards can be discussed would be helpful also. As a particularly outspoken female who tends to edit in more controversial areas, I run into a lot of hostility, probably because male get more upset by females who disagree with them than males. So they take their frustrations out on us in various double standard ways that are very obvious to women, if not to men. (For example, exaggerating the incivility of comments, making exaggerated or fabricated charges of motives, reverting freely and criticizing harshly quality of edits, ignoring points in talk page discussions.)
I've been grateful over time when a couple individuals recognized and pointed out such double standards being applied to me. It helps when one is going through one of one's "I'm quiting this site" phases. So having a place where such double standards can be discussed would be helpful and encourage women to edit in economics, politics, current events, and other areas too many males consider male bastions.
CM
I agree with Ryan that the wiki etiquette board was not helpful in many situations largely because people who regularly patrol the board are often people formerly brought to the board with issues about civility. While the average editor stays away from this area. So often the discussions are less productive than the average discussion on Wikipedia.
Sydney On Jun 23, 2014 2:19 PM, "Ryan Kaldari" rkaldari@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Derric Atzrott < datzrott@alizeepathology.com> wrote:
- bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to
got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense
Would support wholeheartedly.
The problem with Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance was the same as the problem with AN/I. As soon as someone took a complaint to Wikiquette_assistance people like Baseball Bugs would make fun of them for being too sensitive and it would basically turn into forum for criticizing the person who complained. No one at Wikiquette_assistance took complaints seriously, so it just ended up making things more frustrating for the person who was being harassed.
If we want a forum that is more effective, I think we should adopt some of the ideas from the Teahouse. Primarily, by having the responders be vetted volunteers that are expected to provide a minimum level of helpfulness. All the peanut gallery responders who are just there for the lulz should be banned.
Ryan Kaldari
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Derric Atzrott < datzrott@alizeepathology.com> wrote:
- bring back Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance since women may not want to
got to WP:ANI for low grade constant nonsense
Would support wholeheartedly.
- take complaints about harassment in general more seriously
Also would support wholeheartedly.
- Have a "class action" Arbitration on Sexism/Double standards so that
discretionary sanctions could be imposed on obvious incidents
Strong support.
- (new one) quota of 1/3 women admins and 1/3 women arbitrators (and
other positions?)
I’m not sure this would be enforceable, but I would highly support encouraging more women to take up these positions. The process for becoming an admin or arbitrator really needs some work as well. From what I understand becoming an admin is hellish. People dig through everything you’ve ever done and call you out on anything going all the way back to the beginning of time. It might not actually be that way, I’ve not really participated in them, but if it is, that is a problem and probably a big deterrent to a great deal of folks.
- (new one) A GenderGap wikiproject on every wiki, since it can be
troublesome having to go all the way to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap to contact women about what to do with specific issues; (wikiprojects like feminism and gender and womens studies more article and policy related than recruitment and problem solving related)
Would support. Given that many people don’t ever leave their homewiki, and a lot of new people probably don’t even know Meta exists, this could be highly beneficial.
The archives probably have other early suggestions by women I've forgotten. Now a days the only alternatives seem to be doing studies, counting numbers, posting mainstream media articles about what Wikipedia is allegedly doing and links to problematic articles.
Not enough to solve the problem.
Studies are useful. This particular study shows promise I think: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Women_and_Wikipedia For allies these sorts of things help us understand what we are actually trying to accomplish and metrics are useful for determining if we’ve actually made any progress. It is hard to quantitatively measure a culture though. This sort of research also publicises the problem, which is something that there can never be enough of I think.
Maybe it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas. If no one else does, I’d be happy to.
Thank you, Derric Atzrott
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On 6/23/2014 1:49 PM, Derric Atzrott wrote:
Studies are useful. This particular study shows promise I think: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Women_and_Wikipedia For allies these sorts of things help us understand what we are actually trying to accomplish and metrics are useful for determining if we've actually made any progress. It is hard to quantitatively measure a culture though. This sort of research also publicises the problem, which is something that there can never be enough of I think.
*This latest one has delved more than past ones into some of the issues; I think the issues are pretty much known by most women who've been around the wikis a bit, it's solutions that are needed.
Maybe it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas. If no one else does, I'd be happy to.
*Threads here? Like proposals that could be worked over and brought to our various wikis? That's what we need to do. I re-named one thread that dealt with one issue and renamed this one too, just for emphasis...
Maybe it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas. If no one else does, I'd be happy to.
*Threads here? Like proposals that could be worked over and brought to our various wikis? That's what we need to do. I re-named one thread that dealt with one issue and renamed this one too, just for emphasis...
I'm not very familiar with the process of starting Wikiprojects, but I imagine the biggest barrier to entry to this would be finding someone for each language. I imagine that this would work something like the ambassador program, at least on the smaller Wikipedias. This is to say on Wikipedias where the project is too small to really have someone who can handle the Wikiproject we would find a volunteer on Meta who speaks that language and would have them generally just keep an eye on things. Each of these Wikiprojects should have a noticeboard of some sort that folks having issues can post to that the ambassador type would keep an eye on.
Does this all sound reasonable?
Thank you, Derric Atzrott
On 6/23/2014 3:17 PM, Derric Atzrott wrote:
Maybe it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas. If no one else does, I'd be happy to.
*Threads here? Like proposals that could be worked over and brought to our various wikis? That's what we need to do. I re-named one thread that dealt with one issue and renamed this one too, just for emphasis...
I'm not very familiar with the process of starting Wikiprojects, but I imagine the biggest barrier to entry to this would be finding someone for each language. I imagine that this would work something like the ambassador program, at least on the smaller Wikipedias. This is to say on Wikipedias where the project is too small to really have someone who can handle the Wikiproject we would find a volunteer on Meta who speaks that language and would have them generally just keep an eye on things. Each of these Wikiprojects should have a noticeboard of some sort that folks having issues can post to that the ambassador type would keep an eye on.
Does this all sound reasonable?
Thank you, Derric Atzrott
First, of course, there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Gender_Studies which even has a Mind_the_Gap_Award And of course there is a Wikiproject Feminism. And I'm sure other languages have such projects.
Would it want to take on subpages that dealt with women's issues with harassment, insults, double standards and the stickier problems that bother women?
Of course, I remember when something with such a goal was proposed way back in 2011 on this list there were concerns about it giving women specifial privileges or something. I forget. People created the Tea House instead.
But some relevant subgroup of Wikiproject Gender Studies or Feminism, like anything else, some women hopefully have to spearhead it and maintain it. I'm too burned out myself.
CM
A subpage in an existing project would be one idea but please not the Feminism project. I was invited to it very early on by well meaning editors as a place for such discussions but found sex-positive feminists who think female porn stars are the definition of female empowerment.
Gender Studies is fine, but how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Discrimination
Perhaps in the short-term the use of the following templates could be extended, or similar templates developed to cover identified articles, so editors work on draft changes on their user page, they are checked by gender-friendly ambassadors who are also have specialist knowledge in the area that the article covers. It would be less about taking on individual editors and their behaviour, and more about saying, "actually a decision has been made to put this article under an umbrella." * Template:WAP assignment * Template:Educational assignment * Template:Course assignment
Example template code:
{{main other||{{tmbox| image = [[File:Male_and_female_sign.svg|50px]]| style = text-align:center;| text = This article {{#if:{{{ended|}}}| {{#switch:{{{ended|}}}|NO|N|n|False|false|no=is|#default=was}}|is}} the subject of gender related affirmative action {{#if:{{{university|}}}|at {{{university}}}}} supported by {{#if:{{{project|}}}|[[Wikipedia:{{{project}}}|{{{project}}}]] and}} the Wikipedia Pro-female Ambassador Program{{#if:{{{term|}}}|  during the {{{term}}} term}}}}}}
I noticed that Professor Diana Strassman, the founding editor of the journal "Feminist Economics" is an Wikipedia editor (User:DStrassmann) and runs Wikipedia Education Program Courses (although I don't see recent contributions from her).
Co-editor of the journal is Professor Günseli Berik, she is also a Wikipedia editor (User:BerikG) and also runs academic programs, perhaps she would like to get involved.
Marie
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 18:49:46 -0400 From: carolmooredc@verizon.net To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues
On 6/23/2014 3:17 PM, Derric Atzrott wrote:
Maybe it would be worth making threads for some of these ideas. If no one else does, I’d be happy to. *Threads here? Like proposals that could be worked over and brought to our various wikis? That's what we need to do. I re-named one thread that dealt with one issue and renamed this one too, just for emphasis...
I’m not very familiar with the process of starting Wikiprojects, but I imagine the biggest barrier to entry to this would be finding someone for each language. I imagine that this would work something like the ambassador program, at least on the smaller Wikipedias. This is to say on Wikipedias where the project is too small to really have someone who can handle the Wikiproject we would find a volunteer on Meta who speaks that language and would have them generally just keep an eye on things. Each of these Wikiprojects should have a noticeboard of some sort that folks having issues can post to that the ambassador type would keep an eye on. Does this all sound reasonable? Thank you,
Derric Atzrott
First, of course, there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Gender_Studies which even has a Mind_the_Gap_Award And of course there is a Wikiproject Feminism. And I'm sure other languages have such projects.
Would it want to take on subpages that dealt with women's issues with harassment, insults, double standards and the stickier problems that bother women?
Of course, I remember when something with such a goal was proposed way back in 2011 on this list there were concerns about it giving women specifial privileges or something. I forget. People created the Tea House instead.
But some relevant subgroup of Wikiproject Gender Studies or Feminism, like anything else, some women hopefully have to spearhead it and maintain it. I'm too burned out myself.
CM
_______________________________________________ Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Marie Earley eiryel@hotmail.com wrote:
A subpage in an existing project would be one idea but please not the Feminism project. I was invited to it very early on by well meaning editors as a place for such discussions but found sex-positive feminists who think female porn stars are the definition of female empowerment.
Gender Studies is fine, but how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Discrimination
Perhaps in the short-term the use of the following templates could be extended, or similar templates developed to cover identified articles, so editors work on draft changes on their user page, they are checked by gender-friendly ambassadors who are also have specialist knowledge in the area that the article covers. It would be less about taking on individual editors and their behaviour, and more about saying, "actually a decision has been made to put this article under an umbrella."
- Template:WAP assignment
- Template:Educational assignment
- Template:Course assignment
Example template code:
{{main other||{{tmbox| image = [[File:Male_and_female_sign.svg|50px]]| style = text-align:center;| text = This article {{#if:{{{ended|}}}| {{#switch:{{{ended|}}}|NO|N|n|False|false|no=is|#default=was}}|is}} the subject of gender related affirmative action {{#if:{{{university|}}}|at {{{university}}}}} supported by {{#if:{{{project|}}}|[[Wikipedia:{{{project}}}|{{{project}}}]] and}} the Wikipedia Pro-female Ambassador Program{{#if:{{{term|}}}|  during the {{{term}}} term}}}}}}
I noticed that Professor Diana Strassman, the founding editor of the journal "Feminist Economics" is an Wikipedia editor (User:DStrassmann) and runs Wikipedia Education Program Courses (although I don't see recent contributions from her).
Co-editor of the journal is Professor Günseli Berik, she is also a Wikipedia editor (User:BerikG) and also runs academic programs, perhaps she would like to get involved.
Marie
We've got Wikipedia:Gendergap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gendergap that we could do something with, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender bias task force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force, which has members but hasn't been active.
Sarah
On 6/25/2014 11:50 PM, Sarah wrote:
We've got Wikipedia:Gendergap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gendergap that we could do something with, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender bias task force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force, which has members but hasn't been active.
Sarah
Thanks, Sarah. The first links to Meta. I completely forgot about the Gender Bias task force which I signed on to but evidently unwatched during some period of frustration. Of course, the task force only focuses on working on articles, not behavior problems women editors need help with.
Re: issue of discussing content vs. behavior issues off wikipedias, I just remembered a recent ANI where a female editor complained that a male editor was criticizing her harshly on a few off-wiki sites for problematic content in her science-related edits. While he was judged insensitive, he wasn't sanctioned and such off wiki criticism was supported. One editor wrote that "Criticising the quality of an editor's work, whether here or elsewhere, is not harassment. " and "If you would like to curtail editors' freedom to speak out about Wikipedia's failings in public, this in itself will be a media story, and rightly so." Should behavior toward women be considered as part of editors' work??
For more details on this case see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incide...
(Also see the resulting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editor_review/Cwmhiraeth about the complaining female editor and another editor's complaint about it being a "show trial" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incide... ) Perhaps the female editor was judged too assertive in looking for DYKs and Good articles, while didn't fact checking/referencing carefully enough. Not stereotypically female behavior?
However, questioning behavior too aggressively off wikipedia evidently remains a no no. I was once blocked for a week for asking an editor whether his overwhelming history of editing in articles about bondage of females was related to his obvious and annoying harassment of me on a noticeboard, after which I mentioned the issue on the Wikia Feminism page which I thought was a part of Wikipedia (duh). The latter evidently was the bigger "no no".
These are the kind of stories we used to tell here but don't any more. Where can we??
Is Wikipedia ready for women discussing how to deal with specific issues involving bad male editor behavior on or off wikipedia. Would a concerted effort by women to get the community to OK that work? Of course, a concerted effort to just consciousness raise on the issues generally would be great. There is a facebook group where occasionally something specific is mentioned. And going straight to ANI with problems you aren't sure about is difficult; even going to ANI with real problems and real diffs can be fruitless, especially if you are up against people who just make stuff up and don't even provide diffs.
Perhaps the Gender Gap task force at least could allow links to actual ongoing ANIs/Editor Reviews/Arbitrations/noticeboards/etc.
One thing that I could not find searching en.Wikipedia is an Essay called something like KEEPING WOMEN ON WIKIPEDIA that would deal explicitly with the problems women face and the various solutions, going though the list of Dispute resolution options, Wikiprojects and other support efforts, including at Meta. Also include some of the points mentioned in the Geek Feminism article linked by Valerie: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Statement_of_purpose:_communities_includi...
Of course, we would need some admins willing to quickly ban disruptive (probably male) editors from editing that essay.
Such an essay could be linked to a number of relevant projects and help pages and copied to all the languages.
Thoughts?
CM
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 6:04 AM, Carol Moore dc carolmooredc@verizon.net wrote:
On 6/25/2014 11:50 PM, Sarah wrote:
We've got Wikipedia:Gendergap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gendergap that we could do something with, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender bias task force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force, which has members but hasn't been active.
Sarah
Thanks, Sarah. The first links to Meta. I completely forgot about the Gender Bias task force which I signed on to but evidently unwatched during some period of frustration. Of course, the task force only focuses on working on articles, not behavior problems women editors need help with. ...
Perhaps the Gender Gap task force at least could allow links to actual ongoing ANIs/Editor Reviews/Arbitrations/noticeboards/etc. ...
Hi Carol, we had a ruling from the ArbCom during the Chelsea Manning case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning_naming_dispute that said : " Wikipedia editors and readers come from a diverse range of backgrounds, including with respect to their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex or gender, sexual orientation, and gender identity or expression. Comments that demean fellow editors, an article subject, or any other person, on the basis of any of these characteristics are offensive and damage the editing environment for everyone. Such comments, particularly when extreme or repeated after a warning, are grounds for blocking or other sanctions. "
That could be used to stop sexist comments.
Also, bear in mind that the Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender bias task force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force can be whatever we want it to be. It doesn't have to focus only on articles. If you want to become active there, posting links or whatever else would help, that would be great. I'd be very willing to help out too.
Sarah
On 6/26/2014 11:32 AM, Sarah wrote:
Hi Carol, we had a ruling from the ArbCom during the Chelsea Manning case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Manning_naming_dispute that said : " Wikipedia editors and readers come from a diverse range of backgrounds, including with respect to their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex or gender, sexual orientation, and gender identity or expression. Comments that demean fellow editors, an article subject, or any other person, on the basis of any of these characteristics are offensive and damage the editing environment for everyone. Such comments, particularly when extreme or repeated after a warning, are grounds for blocking or other sanctions. "
That could be used to stop sexist comments.
*Thanks for reminding us of that principles statement in the "Sexology" Arbitration and that certainly can be brought up during an ANI.
I got the impression that only things mentioned under "Discretionary sanctions applicable" could automatically be applied by any willing admin. In this case it applies to "all articles dealing with transgender issues" ...any dispute regarding the proper article title, pronoun usage, or other manner of referring to any individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender..."
However, recently I *think* I saw a male editor blocked for some snotty comment to another male editor based only on the editor's complaint to an admin. However, having had trouble getting an admin to enforce a Community Sanction for a long list of harassment related diffs, I have to wonder if maybe I missed the relevant ANI that got the guy blocked. Or if the complaining editor just has more friends in high places willing to do a block for him. Still unclear...
Also, bear in mind that the Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender bias task force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force can be whatever we want it to be. It doesn't have to focus only on articles. If you want to become active there, posting links or whatever else would help, that would be great. I'd be very willing to help out too.
*Well, then let those us of us who have been vocal here should meet there and see what happens!! :-)
CM
Okay, so I've put my name down for the gender bias task force (Professor Strassmann is already a member).
I also wanted to say that, I get a sense from a number of these threads that it is not just a case of finding projects / ambassadors / systems etc. to tackle the issue, but also a language to communicate in, a language that 'frames' the debate. For instance, in the recent debates concerning making Michele Merkin glamour model photo 'picture of the day' how much simpler would it have been to say, "Oppose: I am supporter of feminist economics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_economics ) and the capability approach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capabilities_approach ) and I feel having this image as POTD is an attack on both and therefore it would breach NPOV."
I've been creating articles relating to feminist economics for a while now, mostly blps, but also one for the International Association for Feminist Economics (IAFFE). Professor Strassmann and Professor Berik are co-editors of the peer-reviewed journal "Feminist Economics" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_Economics_%28journal%29 ). There is an emphasis in the topic on how women are perceived, including self-perception, how that translates to the amount of say they have in decision-making, bargaining power, and their well-being. In the early days of feminist economic discussions it was used to figure out what was happening to women in the developing world. An example narrative might be - a woman in India who makes cloth bags and her husband sells them, in an interview she says, "Without my husband I would starve." She says this because he sells the bags, the truth is it is an equal partnership, if she didn't make the bags in the first place then he would starve. If both she and her husband regard him as the important one then it has a knock-on effect to the distribution of the income / food / resources in their household. Feminist economic theory, however, can be applied wherever women have to negotiate, so the work of feminist economists has moved on over the years to be applied to discussions in developed countries as well.
Crucially, from the point of view of the discussions that we have been having in these threads, there is an accepted idea within feminist economics that the sexualization of the media and gender stereotyping have negative connotations for women and girls, to the point of dehumanizing women and being a cause of violence (see recommendations 134-136 pages 38 and 39, in this report http://www.unwomen.org/~/media/Headquarters/Attachments/Sections/Library/Pub... by the 57th session of the Commission on the Status of Women, CSW57, which focussed on preventing violence to women).
Just a few months ago, Rashida Manjoo, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women*, visited the UK and said that the UK has a "boys' club sexist culture" which leads to negative perceptions about women and girls, and that it was of the worst "in-your-face" examples that she had seen in all the countries she had visited. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/15/un-special-rapporteur-manjoo-ya...
So having an interest in feminist economics (being pro-feminist economics) effectively translates as being in favour of a number of things: education of women including sex education (so accusations prudishness are unfounded); development ethics; a global perspective (which Wikipedia strives to achieve); ending violence against women and girls; and a whole host of other gender and development issues.
With this in mind I've created a template for those interested:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:User_feminist_economics
...and, a category to go with it (a sub-category of "Wikipedians interested in economics"):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedians_interested_in_feminist_ec...
Articles that are related to feminist economics: * Feminist economics * Capability approach * Gender Empowerment Measure * Gender-related Development Index * Gender inequality * Intra-household bargaining * Inequality of bargaining power * Feminization of poverty
People might also be interested in section 3. of this article by the Nobel Prize winner Amartya Sen http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1990/dec/20/more-than-100-million-w...
Marie
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 12:18:05 -0400 From: carolmooredc@verizon.net To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues
On 6/26/2014 11:32 AM, Sarah wrote:
Hi Carol, we had a ruling from the ArbCom during the Chelsea Manning case that said : "
Wikipedia editors and readers come from a diverse range of backgrounds, including with respect to their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex or gender, sexual orientation, and gender identity or expression. Comments that demean fellow editors, an article subject, or any other person, on the basis of any of these characteristics are offensive and damage the editing environment for everyone. Such comments, particularly when extreme or repeated after a warning, are grounds for blocking or other sanctions. "
That could be used to stop sexist comments.
*Thanks for reminding us of that principles statement in the "Sexology" Arbitration and that certainly can be brought up during an ANI.
I got the impression that only things mentioned under "Discretionary sanctions applicable" could automatically be applied by any willing admin. In this case it applies to "all articles dealing with transgender issues" ...any dispute regarding the proper article title, pronoun usage, or other manner of referring to any individual known to be or self-identifying as transgender..."
However, recently I *think* I saw a male editor blocked for some snotty comment to another male editor based only on the editor's complaint to an admin. However, having had trouble getting an admin to enforce a Community Sanction for a long list of harassment related diffs, I have to wonder if maybe I missed the relevant ANI that got the guy blocked. Or if the complaining editor just has more friends in high places willing to do a block for him. Still unclear...
Also, bear in mind that the Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender bias task force can be whatever we want it to be. It doesn't have to focus only on articles. If you want to become active there, posting links or whatever else would help, that would be great. I'd be very willing to help out too.
*Well, then let those us of us who have been vocal here should meet there and see what happens!! :-)
CM
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I think a version of Marie's idea for an "umbrella" to help with diversity-related articles might be quite useful. A number of experienced editors have been trying to do this on an adhoc basis, but it's hard to scale.
Perhaps it would make sense to revive WikiProject Countering Systemic Bias, or reformulate something like WikiProject Diversity. I can see the point that a typical wikiproject oriented around a particular subject area (rather than to fostering diversity in general) might be a somewhat limiting definition.
Dr Strassman is actually chair of the board of the Wiki Education Foundation, serving the education program in the US and Canada (I am another one of the board members). Certainly the education program model of "ambassadors" is something that can be built on.
Thanks, Pharos
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 11:50 PM, Sarah slimvirgin@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Marie Earley eiryel@hotmail.com wrote:
A subpage in an existing project would be one idea but please not the Feminism project. I was invited to it very early on by well meaning editors as a place for such discussions but found sex-positive feminists who think female porn stars are the definition of female empowerment.
Gender Studies is fine, but how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Discrimination
Perhaps in the short-term the use of the following templates could be extended, or similar templates developed to cover identified articles, so editors work on draft changes on their user page, they are checked by gender-friendly ambassadors who are also have specialist knowledge in the area that the article covers. It would be less about taking on individual editors and their behaviour, and more about saying, "actually a decision has been made to put this article under an umbrella."
- Template:WAP assignment
- Template:Educational assignment
- Template:Course assignment
Example template code:
{{main other||{{tmbox| image = [[File:Male_and_female_sign.svg|50px]]| style = text-align:center;| text = This article {{#if:{{{ended|}}}| {{#switch:{{{ended|}}}|NO|N|n|False|false|no=is|#default=was}}|is}} the subject of gender related affirmative action {{#if:{{{university|}}}|at {{{university}}}}} supported by {{#if:{{{project|}}}|[[Wikipedia:{{{project}}}|{{{project}}}]] and}} the Wikipedia Pro-female Ambassador Program{{#if:{{{term|}}}|  during the {{{term}}} term}}}}}}
I noticed that Professor Diana Strassman, the founding editor of the journal "Feminist Economics" is an Wikipedia editor (User:DStrassmann) and runs Wikipedia Education Program Courses (although I don't see recent contributions from her).
Co-editor of the journal is Professor Günseli Berik, she is also a Wikipedia editor (User:BerikG) and also runs academic programs, perhaps she would like to get involved.
Marie
We've got Wikipedia:Gendergap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gendergap that we could do something with, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender bias task force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_bias_task_force, which has members but hasn't been active.
Sarah
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On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Marie Earley eiryel@hotmail.com wrote:
A subpage in an existing project would be one idea but please not the Feminism project. I was invited to it very early on by well meaning editors as a place for such discussions but found sex-positive feminists who think female porn stars are the definition of female empowerment.
Hi Marie, I believe you're referring to a particular editor who hasn't participated there since about a year ago. I totally understand if you felt put off by your interactions with them. You might want to consider checking out the project again though since we could always use more informed, thoughtful voices such as yours.
Cheers, Ryan
Thanks Ryan.
I don't think I know who you mean though, from memory there were quite a few who fell into the porn = feminism school of thought (sex-positive feminism or third-wave feminism). The one person I thought you might mean has posted edits within the last few weeks so it can't be them.
It's hard to remember now but I think it was possibly the combination of comments from members and also some of the articles listed in the feminism portal with GA status that I found off-putting, particularly as it had been suggested to me as, "Oh, you should go there."
Articles with GA status:
Batgirl (and also a second article on Barbara Gordon) Belle (Disney - complete with picture of Belle in ball gown and holding a flower) Beyoncé "Can't Hold Us Down" (Christina Aguilera, raunch culture track) "The Dirty Picture" (read the plot and then tell me Silk is the film / poster for the film is "portraying women as powerful" as described in the article's opening paragraph) "Government Hooker" (a song by Lady Gaga about John F. Kennedy's affair with Marilyn Monroe, lyrics include "I'm gonna drink my tears and cry / 'cos I know you love me baby") Independent Women's Forum (quote from article "IWF-affiliated writers have argued that the gender gap in income exists because of women's greater demand for flexibility, fewer hours, and less travel in their careers, rather than because of sexism") Lara Croft (male fantasy figure) "Love, Loss, and What I Wore" (play - the plot sounds like the opposite of feminism) Madonna Tara Teng (Miss World 2012) Xue Susu (a Chinese courtesan).
Anyway, as a start I've divided the list of members on WikiProject Feminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Feminism/Members between those who - have / have not - contributed to Wikipedia since 1 January 2013 (and updated the url link to take account of the change). That leaves the project with 147 active members.
The process gave me a glimpse of the interests / articles that members are editing, it was quite telling how many listed their interests / studies as: human development / human capabilities / African Diaspora / psychology / economics / poverty related (in particulary students on the Poverty, Justice, and Human Capabilities PJHC course at Rice University). I also found Wikipedian in Residence Sydney Poore (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FloNight/FAQ_WiR ), perhaps useful? (I counted eight of the 147 who might reasonably be described as sex-positive feminists or third-wave feminists, which isn't really all that many https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism ).
Marie
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 10:46:52 -0700 From: rkaldari@wikimedia.org To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Wikiproject? ...Threads on various issues
On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 7:33 PM, Marie Earley eiryel@hotmail.com wrote:
A subpage in an existing project would be one idea but please not the Feminism project. I was invited to it very early on by well meaning editors as a place for such discussions but found sex-positive feminists who think female porn stars are the definition of female empowerment.
Hi Marie, I believe you're referring to a particular editor who hasn't participated there since about a year ago. I totally understand if you felt put off by your interactions with them. You might want to consider checking out the project again though since we could always use more informed, thoughtful voices such as yours.
Cheers, Ryan
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On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 8:23 AM, Moriel Schottlender moriel@gmail.com wrote:
Did this really just happen?
Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not participating as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle suggestion of the cause being that they didn't feel this group is completely woman-friendly -- and your response was to "remind us" what the point of this group is about? Did I misunderstand your email?
We're all here for the same goal, but some of us experience this problem differently than others, and some appear to have gone frustrated and annoyed and are not participating as much as they used to. That's a problem. That's not something we should ignore. And we should figure out why it happens (because it seemed to have happened to more than just two arguing women) and how to make sure it is getting better.
Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at least in this mailing list, to make things a tad better for women to participate in:
In a group about the gender gap, men should attempt to take a step back.
Can we get this in the footer of every email? Or a link to:
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Statement_of_purpose:_communities_includi...
Then these threads can be one reply with a pointer to the link. :)
-VAL
That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or generalizations.
The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions.
And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like they need to constantly defend the "reasons" for their experiences and feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual experience.
Moriel
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Derric Atzrott datzrott@alizeepathology.com wrote:
Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!
By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal women.
Nemo
Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this discussion is going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all here?
From the Mailing list signup page: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects.
Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in Wikipedia and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to collectively address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are focused on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of women and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage you to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this regard matter to us and to the community."
Thank you, Derric Atzrott
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-- No trees were harmed in the creation of this post. But billions of electrons, photons, and electromagnetic waves were terribly inconvenienced during its transmission!
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I'm sorry Derric, but I think the topic of this thread is the notion that many men, including those in administrator roles (e.g. list moderators) simply don't even recognize misogyny, and don't recognize the importance of providing systems by which women (and others, for that matter) can easily limit the ability of people who have caused them problems from continuing to communicate with them.
The focus on technology here is very important. Right now, there is no way for Wikimedians to control from whom they receive "email this user" emails, or pings through the notification system. We know that both have been, and continue to be, vectors for harassment and trolling. There's never, to my knowledge, been any consideration given to including these features. We keep being told we're going to get this wonderful new communication system called "Flow" to replace talk pages. Features that allow users to control who posts to their "page", or even to let non-admin users remove individual threads or posts from their "stream", aren't included - and I'm not sure they're even under consideration.
And I'm going to be honest - I've seen more people blocked for "homophobic" comments than "misogynistic" ones.
Nemo, your "Hm, we've discussed that author before... oh well." is really unhelpful and dismissive - and is pretty much exactly the kind of statement that Violet Blue is talking about in her article. It comes across as "She wrote something I didn't agree with in the past, so there's no reason to ever pay attention to her again". I am really hoping you didn't intend that.
And Carol has a point. There are now more men posting to this thread than there are women. And most of you have missed the point entirely. Heaven help us from those who see themselves as our saviours.
Risker
On 23 June 2014 09:57, Derric Atzrott datzrott@alizeepathology.com wrote:
Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!
By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal
women.
Nemo
Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this discussion is going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all here?
From the Mailing list signup page: "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation of women within Wikimedia projects.
Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in Wikipedia and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to collectively address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are focused on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of women and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage you to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this regard matter to us and to the community."
Thank you, Derric Atzrott
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote: <snip>
The focus on technology here is very important. Right now, there is no way for Wikimedians to control from whom they receive "email this user" emails, or pings through the notification system. We know that both have been, and continue to be, vectors for harassment and trolling. There's never, to my knowledge, been any consideration given to including these features. We keep being told we're going to get this wonderful new communication system called "Flow" to replace talk pages. Features that allow users to control who posts to their "page", or even to let non-admin users remove individual threads or posts from their "stream", aren't included - and I'm not sure they're even under consideration.
<snip>
Risker
This is an area where I'd really like to see Lila help out (is she subscribed to this list?). If there is some recognition at the top that the gender gap is one of the most important, fundamental problems facing the Wikimedia projects... Then addressing it should be built into literally every feature development process, including Flow. It should be tested against female user groups, scrutinized on whether it helps address the gender gap or not, and revamped to do so if its found it doesn't.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but every feature that *doesn't* address the gender gap is a missed opportunity - Flow in particular. Not exacerbating the problem isn't enough. WMF has limited resources, and is unlikely to make massively iterative attempts at rolling out such a major feature. Since it's clear that communication and interaction are at the core of the gap, any new tool in this area must make at least some progress.
On 6/23/2014 11:26 AM, Risker wrote:
I The focus on technology here is very important. Right now, there is no way for Wikimedians to control from whom they receive "email this user" emails, or pings through the notification system. We know that both have been, and continue to be, vectors for harassment and trolling. There's never, to my knowledge, been any consideration given to including these features. We keep being told we're going to get this wonderful new communication system called "Flow" to replace talk pages. Features that allow users to control who posts to their "page", or even to let non-admin users remove individual threads or posts from their "stream", aren't included - and I'm not sure they're even under consideration.
Sorry not to mention technological issues like you mention above. Mostly my own lack of knowledge. And they do sound helpful. It's annoying when you have to go to WP:ANI to get someone to stop posting their rants to your talk page despite 2 or 3 requests! (Guys do have to put up with it too, sometimes, of course.)
Actually, I think there's something to be said for downvoting. Not in the reddit "i disagree" sense, but in the slashdot/ meta filter "comments downvoted/flagged past a certain point will be hidden/deleted" sense. It would obviously take a lot of work to make that work within the media wiki software *and* the Wikimedia ethos, but it would probably save tons of grief and derails if the worst of the worst comments were limited by crowdsourced review. On Jun 23, 2014 12:47 PM, "Daniel and Elizabeth Case" < dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
MediaWiki's mostly impersonal interaction helps a lot here.
No image avatars, no upvoting or downvoting of comments (something I don't see the utility of on either Reddit or Quora, FTM). Maybe the features are what we *don't* have.
Daniel Case
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On 6/23/2014 12:56 PM, Katherine Casey wrote:
Actually, I think there's something to be said for downvoting. Not in the reddit "i disagree" sense, but in the slashdot/ meta filter "comments downvoted/flagged past a certain point will be hidden/deleted" sense. It would obviously take a lot of work to make that work within the media wiki software *and* the Wikimedia ethos, but it would probably save tons of grief and derails if the worst of the worst comments were limited by crowdsourced review.
There are definitely times it's needed. Maybe if there's some review process where a non-biased moderator can look and see if it's just an opinion that's unpopular or something really worth removing.
Actually, I think there's something to be said for downvoting. Not in the reddit "i disagree" sense, but in the slashdot/ >meta filter "comments downvoted/flagged past a certain point will be hidden/deleted" sense. It would obviously take a >lot of work to make that work within the media wiki software *and* the Wikimedia ethos, but it would probably save >tons of grief and derails if the worst of the worst comments were limited by crowdsourced review.
On the popular liberal/progressive website Daily Kos, the equivalent of downvoting, “hide rec”’ing, is meant to be used only for really offensive or out-of-line comments. Abusing that function, i.e., by constantly doing it to the same user or similar opinions reasonably expressed, can lead to sanctions against your account. Daniel Case
On the popular liberal/progressive website Daily Kos, the equivalent of downvoting, “hide rec”’ing, is meant to be used only for really offensive or out-of-line comments. Abusing that function, i.e., by constantly doing it to the same user or similar opinions reasonably expressed, can lead to sanctions against your account.
I wonder if it might be worth it to try to envision a system that works somewhat like a combination of Daily Kos, Slashdot, and Stack Exchange. On Stack Exchange you don’t immediately start with the ability to up or down vote things, but gain the ability very quickly if you participate in discussions. I feel as though the reputation system of Stack Exchange, combined with the way that Slashdot shows comments, and the verbiage and mannerisms of Daily Kos, might allow for a pretty robust system.
Thank you,
Derric Atzrott
Wow. That's sobering. I'd like to think we don't have it that bad on WMF sites, but maybe we do?
Then there's this:
"Technical solutions abound when websites and apps provide options that take targeted users into consideration -- namely, giving us back our ability to make boundaries. For instance, sites shouldn't let strangers message strangers, and all sites and apps should allow users to block others. When Quora tells people to pick interests or topics they want, it should also tell them to pick interests or topics they don't want."
Unfortunately, I don't see any way that a wiki can work with the ability to block "strangers" from messaging each other, or allowing individual person-to-person blocks. Works great for message boards; doesn't work on a wiki. Does it?
Powers &8^]
-----Original Message----- From: Delphine Ménard [mailto:notafishz@gmail.com] Sent: 22 June 2014 19:05 To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
Hello,
I found this:
http://www.zdnet.com/quoras-misogyny-problem-a-cautionary-tale-7000030762/
an interesting read.
Cheers,
Delphine
Apologies for long post but, as another example of external pressure often being able to get to do more than internal, I'd like to relate the following experience.
In October 2008 I joined TriggerStreet.com (now Trigger Street Labs). It is a website set up by Kevin Spacey and his business partner Dana Brunetti, their film production company made The Social Network and Captain Phillips.
The idea of the website is for members to read each others screenplays / short stories, watch each other's short films and give feedback. You earn credits for reviewing material and spend them on adding your own material to the site, you can also add additional credits to 'push' your work nearer to the top of the pile waiting to be reviewed.
The website also has discussion forums, I was shocked, not only by the comments on display but also by the attitude of moderators. In one early exchange the word 'fa**ots' was used to describe gay people, the thread was locked but no action was taken against the perpetrator. I e-mailed the moderator asking why, he wrote back to me saying, "As a gay man myself I am sympathetic to your comments," (I hadn't known he was gay until he replied) "but as a moderator, I have now locked the thread and it will now slide down the boards."
Discussing the policy on how the site was run on the boards was a complete NO-NO, there was just a general rule about 'not feeding trolls'. Another thread I was involved with concerned a discussion about Julian Assange there was lively discussion as to whether he was a hero or a villain, but it was civil. Out of nowhere there was a comment, "Why can't we get back to talking about porn and masturbation." Everyone ignored this, the conversation went on, there were two further attempts by the same poster asking the same thing, he then began his own thread entitled the "Porn and masturbation thread." Not only was nothing done, in a (very, very naughty) thread suggesting more ought to be done to prevent such behaviour, Dana Brunetti in particular stated that he didn't want the site to become "sanitized" and he didn't want it to turn into Orwell's 1984 - to an approving chorus of "Dana's right" from other members.
Just like Wikipedia there is no way of blocking other users, and, again like Wikipedia, the nature of what the website was set up to do may mean that it is impractical. It was all compounded for me by the "screenplay of the month" feature where the winner was displayed on the home page (since replaced by "featured short film", "featured short story" and "featured screenplay"). I watched winners include Mr. "fa**ots" and, another month, Mr. "porn and masturbation thread". The name of the screenplay of the month winner and their avatar were also displayed, this prompted one winner to change his avatar to two women in bikinis kissing. Cue a congratulatory thread to the male writer in his early 20s plus a side helping of "nice avatar btw." One bigot had his screenplay optioned by a studio - so much for ignoring trolls.
The website also had an industry podcast each week usually featuring Dana and Vice-President of Trigger Street, Carter Swan. One week they said that there were going to be big changes including revamping the website, and anyone who didn't like the new changes could "f*** off". One of the changes was to get rid of the plays section (and with it all the credits I had gathered). One of the other changes was to have a lot more podcasts from a purpose built studio. A fashion podcast, a music podcast, one for comic enthusiasts and one featuring the porn star Kayden Kross, reviewing a different film each week.
I complained (by e-mail - no dissent allowed on the forums remember), I was ignored, so then I tried a different tactic. I wrote to various groups dealing with domestic violence that were based in Southwark, London (home of the Old Vic where Spacey is the Artistic Director), asking them to lobby Kevin Spacey at the Old Vic. I also wrote to all the e-mail addresses within the Old Vic that I could find. It worked the other podcasts continued but the ones by Kayden Kross stopped.
The rules about using the website also changed, including the following new statement: "While using the Site or Services, you agree not to: Transmit any content or information that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, libelous, vulgar, obscene, hateful, fraudulent or otherwise objectionable content, or infringes on our or any third party's intellectual property or other rights."
I have no idea how much of that (if any) was because down to what I did. I have also no idea how rigorously the new rules were / are enforced, they got rid of me around the same time as Kross. My account, not deleted, just suspended where it has remained since August 2011, no explanation given and no indication as to if / when it will be reinstated - if they read this it will probably
The film - 50 Shades of Grey is set to be released on Valentine's Day 2015, it is being made by Trigger Street Productions.
Marie
From: LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 08:24:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
Wow. That's sobering. I'd like to think we don't have it that bad on WMF sites, but maybe we do?
Then there's this:
"Technical solutions abound when websites and apps provide options that take targeted users into consideration -- namely, giving us back our ability to make boundaries. For instance, sites shouldn't let strangers message strangers, and all sites and apps should allow users to block others. When Quora tells people to pick interests or topics they want, it should also tell them to pick interests or topics they don't want."
Unfortunately, I don't see any way that a wiki can work with the ability to block "strangers" from messaging each other, or allowing individual person-to-person blocks. Works great for message boards; doesn't work on a wiki. Does it?
Powers &8^]
-----Original Message-----
From: Delphine Ménard [mailto:notafishz@gmail.com]
Sent: 22 June 2014 19:05
To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
Hello,
I found this:
http://www.zdnet.com/quoras-misogyny-problem-a-cautionary-tale-7000030762/
an interesting read.
Cheers,
Delphine
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Hi all -
Although this thread has gone pretty far from perfectly as a whole, it has comforted me to see a number of people contribute to the thread who haven't been active on this list in quite a while. I'm going to send out a couple separate emails apart from this - but would like to thank the contributors who have popped in to this thread to post their thoughts who have been inactive for some period of time. I can't guarantee I will be able to consistently do so, but will make a stronger effort to keep up on gendergap-l traffic going forward, and also to try to help ensure that any obstacles that currently discourage women from participating in this list are mitigated, moderated, or if push comes to shove, removed from this individual community at least.
Best, Kevin Gorman
On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 2:09 AM, Marie Earley eiryel@hotmail.com wrote:
Apologies for long post but, as another example of external pressure often being able to get to do more than internal, I'd like to relate the following experience.
In October 2008 I joined TriggerStreet.com (now Trigger Street Labs http://labs.triggerstreet.com/). It is a website set up by Kevin Spacey and his business partner Dana Brunetti, their film production company made *The Social Network* and *Captain Phillips*.
The idea of the website is for members to read each others screenplays / short stories, watch each other's short films and give feedback. You earn credits for reviewing material and spend them on adding your own material to the site, you can also add additional credits to 'push' your work nearer to the top of the pile waiting to be reviewed.
The website also has discussion forums, I was shocked, not only by the comments on display but also by the attitude of moderators. In one early exchange the word 'fa**ots' was used to describe gay people, the thread was locked but no action was taken against the perpetrator. I e-mailed the moderator asking why, he wrote back to me saying, "As a gay man myself I am sympathetic to your comments," (I hadn't known he was gay until he replied) "but as a moderator, I have now locked the thread and it will now slide down the boards."
Discussing the policy on how the site was run on the boards was a complete NO-NO, there was just a general rule about 'not feeding trolls'. Another thread I was involved with concerned a discussion about Julian Assange there was lively discussion as to whether he was a hero or a villain, but it was civil. Out of nowhere there was a comment, "Why can't we get back to talking about porn and masturbation." Everyone ignored this, the conversation went on, there were two further attempts by the same poster asking the same thing, he then began his own thread entitled the "Porn and masturbation thread." Not only was nothing done, in a (very, very naughty) thread suggesting more ought to be done to prevent such behaviour, Dana Brunetti in particular stated that he didn't want the site to become "sanitized" and he didn't want it to turn into Orwell's *1984* - to an approving chorus of "Dana's right" from other members.
Just like Wikipedia there is no way of blocking other users, and, again like Wikipedia, the nature of what the website was set up to do may mean that it is impractical. It was all compounded for me by the "screenplay of the month" feature where the winner was displayed on the home page (since replaced by "featured short film", "featured short story" and "featured screenplay"). I watched winners include Mr. "fa**ots" and, another month, Mr. "porn and masturbation thread". The name of the screenplay of the month winner and their avatar were also displayed, this prompted one winner to change his avatar to two women in bikinis kissing. Cue a congratulatory thread to the male writer in his early 20s plus a side helping of "nice avatar btw." One bigot had his screenplay optioned by a studio - so much for ignoring trolls.
The website also had an industry podcast each week usually featuring Dana and Vice-President of Trigger Street, Carter Swan. One week they said that there were going to be big changes including revamping the website, and anyone who didn't like the new changes could "f*** off". One of the changes was to get rid of the plays section (and with it all the credits I had gathered). One of the other changes was to have a lot more podcasts from a purpose built studio. A fashion podcast, a music podcast, one for comic enthusiasts and one featuring the porn star Kayden Kross, reviewing a different film each week.
I complained (by e-mail - no dissent allowed on the forums remember), I was ignored, so then I tried a different tactic. I wrote to various groups dealing with domestic violence that were based in Southwark, London (home of the Old Vic where Spacey is the Artistic Director), asking them to lobby Kevin Spacey at the Old Vic. I also wrote to all the e-mail addresses within the Old Vic that I could find. It worked the other podcasts continued but the ones by Kayden Kross stopped.
The rules about using the website also changed, including the following new statement:* "While using the Site or Services, you agree not to: Transmit any content or information that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, libelous, vulgar, obscene, hateful, fraudulent or otherwise objectionable content, or infringes on our or any third party's intellectual property or other rights."*
I have no idea how much of that (if any) was because down to what I did. I have also no idea how rigorously the new rules were / are enforced, they got rid of me around the same time as Kross. My account, not deleted, just suspended where it has remained since August 2011, no explanation given and no indication as to if / when it will be reinstated - if they read this it will probably
The film - *50 Shades of Grey* is set to be released on Valentine's Day 2015, it is being made by Trigger Street Productions.
Marie
From: LtPowers_Wiki@rochester.rr.com To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 08:24:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
Wow. That's sobering. I'd like to think we don't have it that bad on WMF sites, but maybe we do?
Then there's this:
"Technical solutions abound when websites and apps provide options that take targeted users into consideration -- namely, giving us back our ability to make boundaries. For instance, sites shouldn't let strangers message strangers, and all sites and apps should allow users to block others. When Quora tells people to pick interests or topics they want, it should also tell them to pick interests or topics they don't want."
Unfortunately, I don't see any way that a wiki can work with the ability to block "strangers" from messaging each other, or allowing individual person-to-person blocks. Works great for message boards; doesn't work on a wiki. Does it?
Powers &8^]-----Original Message----- *From:* Delphine Ménard [mailto:notafishz@gmail.com] *Sent:* 22 June 2014 19:05 *To:* gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org *Subject:* [Gendergap] A cautionary tale
Hello, I found this: http://www.zdnet.com/quoras-misogyny-problem-a-cautionary-tale-7000030762/ an interesting read. Cheers, Delphine
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