On 12/11/11 20:07, William Allen Simpson wrote:
On 11/12/11 12:14 PM, bawolff wrote:
There are a number of obvious technical issues. YouTube and others have had to handle this, it's time for us.
- DMCA doesn't require a takedown until there's been a complaint. We
really shouldn't allow deletion until there's been an actual complaint. We need technical means for recording official notices and appeals. Informal opinions of ill-informed volunteers aren't helpful.
OTRS? This seems like a social (or potentially a legal) issue not a technical one.
Perhaps you could be more explicit. How does the unmentioned, unreferenced, and barely documented OTRS handle the technical process of recording formal complaints and appeals, and managing their handling?
Especially as OTRS specifically states it's for granting permission, not requesting deletion.
It's also used for "communicating with <project>". Not only for granting permissions.
What "social" process does that? The "social" process we have now for deletion isn't working.
I'm thinking more like bugzilla.
It is indeed a bit like bugzilla. Each email creates a ticket, which can be tracked.
- Fast scripting and insufficient notice lead to flapping of images,
and confusion by the owners of the documents (and the editors of articles, as 2 days is much *much* too short for most of us). We need something to enforce review times.
Again a social issue
You plan some kind of social monitoring?
What extra volunteer (and boring) time are you offering, personally?
Sure, somebody could constantly monitor recent updates, and try to notice that some administrator is scripting and block them. But in my experience, the recent updates list scrolls by too fast to notice that each deletion request (or deletion) is happening at a rate that makes no sense. It's still only a few per minute, lost in the noise.
Why not use technical means instead?
You mean that if Foo uploaded some child porn to commons, the software would block a direct deletion and instead force a deletion request and 7 days waiting before allowing it to be removed?
You are rejecting that it is a social problem
- Folks in other industries aren't monitoring Talk pages and have no
idea or sufficient notice that their photos are being deleted. The Talk mechanism is really not a good method for anybody other than very active wikipedians. We need better email and other social notices.
Enable enotif for talk page messages by default?
It is already enabled.
Perhaps. But a weekly bundle won't be fast enough,
It isn't a weekly bundle.
and a single message that doesn't repeat again until after the user has checked the Talk for previous messages won't handle urgency or repeats. So we'd have to add a special flag for deletion notices.
Would that 'flag' make a difference? If I'm away from a computer, it doesn't matter if I receive 1 or 20 emails about getting a message in my talk. I will look at it when I arrive. OTOH, there are valid concerns about it, such as people reading the differences from an unlogged device, or problems if they slipped that message (resend on new talk messages after X days?).
- We really don't have a method to "prove" that a username is actually
under control of the public figure. Hard to do. Needs discussion.
Again a social issue. No amount of technical magic will be able to solve that issue.
We think of such technical solutions all the time in cryptology. But none as simple and easy as sending SMS asking to call the Foundation Designated Agent....
Reminder, in this case the administrator doesn't believe that the hot lead guitarist for Cee Lo Green would create a user page and upload her own picture. And I'd asked her to create her own page and upload her own picture *because* it would be better than me doing it. It fits the "I, the copyright holder of this work, ..."
He compared her to Madonna. Basically, nothing will convince this administrator. The administrator has to be taken out of the loop.
We need technical means to handle that message.
If OTRS say it's her, that should be enough. Of course, she could also send a SMS to the Chief Community Officer if she prefers to. But does he know which is the right mobile number of the artist?
- We probably could use some kind of comparison utility to help
confirm/deny a photo or article is derived from another source.
That could certainly be a technical challenge, and not a trivial one. However at the end of the day we can just get a human to compare.
Wow, you really have a lot of extra time on your hands....
If a person needs to find out the two photos, in order to ask the software if they are one derived from the other. Yes, it's better to let the human make the decission. If you mean, find any photo similar to this, there is such software (eg. Google Images) and it is used by commons users.