It sounds like phabricator upstream is going away: https://admin.phacility.com/phame/post/view/11/phacility_is_winding_down_ope...
Just curious, are we planning to continue using it long term or move to something else?
-- Brian
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T283980
On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 9:00 PM Brian Wolff bawolff@gmail.com wrote:
It sounds like phabricator upstream is going away: https://admin.phacility.com/phame/post/view/11/phacility_is_winding_down_ope...
Just curious, are we planning to continue using it long term or move to something else?
-- Brian _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list -- wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to wikitech-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikitech-l.lists.wikimedia.org/
cc'ing engineering-all@ as well.
Yes it is true that Phacility, the Phabricator upstream, is winding down.
For the short term nothing changes for us/Wikimedia. Our Phabricator install is fine and working.
Medium to longer term I expect some sort of decision making process that the Engineering Productivity team will shepherd/lead (as owners of our Phabricator installation and management) in collaboration with other teams (notably Technical Engagement) and the community. Details to come.
Tomorrow, Monday, is a US Holiday and the rest of this week is an Engineering Productivity Virtual Offsite. Our ability to be involved with the conversation this week is thus very limited.
We'll communicate the next steps when we have them.
Thank you,
Greg
On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 6:01 PM AntiCompositeNumber < anticompositenumber@gmail.com> wrote:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T283980
On Sat, May 29, 2021 at 9:00 PM Brian Wolff bawolff@gmail.com wrote:
It sounds like phabricator upstream is going away:
https://admin.phacility.com/phame/post/view/11/phacility_is_winding_down_ope...
Just curious, are we planning to continue using it long term or move to
something else?
-- Brian _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list -- wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to wikitech-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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On 5/29/21 5:59 PM, Brian Wolff wrote:
It sounds like phabricator upstream is going away: https://admin.phacility.com/phame/post/view/11/phacility_is_winding_down_ope... https://admin.phacility.com/phame/post/view/11/phacility_is_winding_down_operations/
On the general topic, it's worrying to me this is the third major platform/software that Wikimedia relies on that is gone, with little notice. OTRS went EOL 2 days before Christmas last year[1] and Freenode well, switched hands and imploded.
In all 3 cases though it's been pretty clear beforehand that something was wrong or unsustainable. OTRS didn't release their community edition on time[2], Freenode has had questionable governance for a while now, the "Freenode Limited" company was created in 2017, and Phabricator/Phacility has been maintained by a single person (who's done great work, no doubt) in a way that did not really encourage upstream contributions to build a sustainable community of contributors (my impression, correct me if I'm wrong).
And with COVID-19, plenty of IRL businesses/shops/etc. have gone under or just closed down so it's unsurprising that we're seeing the effect in tech/FOSS too.
I think it would be a good idea if we can check in on our upstreams[2], have sustainable governance, identifying if they assistance/support, and then figuring out how to provide what's needed.
To start with, I think we have a unique opportunity to influence the governance of Libera Chat given they're just starting off and appear to be interested in getting our feedback[3].
[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T275294 [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Upstream_projects [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Forum#Libera_Chat_governance
-- Legoktm
Also HHVM and Blazegraph.
-- Brian
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021, Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
On 5/29/21 5:59 PM, Brian Wolff wrote:
It sounds like phabricator upstream is going away: https://admin.phacility.com/phame/post/view/11/phacility_is_ winding_down_operations/ https://admin.phacility.com/p hame/post/view/11/phacility_is_winding_down_operations/
On the general topic, it's worrying to me this is the third major platform/software that Wikimedia relies on that is gone, with little notice. OTRS went EOL 2 days before Christmas last year[1] and Freenode well, switched hands and imploded.
In all 3 cases though it's been pretty clear beforehand that something was wrong or unsustainable. OTRS didn't release their community edition on time[2], Freenode has had questionable governance for a while now, the "Freenode Limited" company was created in 2017, and Phabricator/Phacility has been maintained by a single person (who's done great work, no doubt) in a way that did not really encourage upstream contributions to build a sustainable community of contributors (my impression, correct me if I'm wrong).
And with COVID-19, plenty of IRL businesses/shops/etc. have gone under or just closed down so it's unsurprising that we're seeing the effect in tech/FOSS too.
I think it would be a good idea if we can check in on our upstreams[2], have sustainable governance, identifying if they assistance/support, and then figuring out how to provide what's needed.
To start with, I think we have a unique opportunity to influence the governance of Libera Chat given they're just starting off and appear to be interested in getting our feedback[3].
[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T275294 [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Upstream_projects [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Forum#Libera_Chat_governance
-- Legoktm _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list -- wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to wikitech-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikitech-l.lists .wikimedia.org/
There is also one of the search systems migrating to non O/S from memory... elastic?
On Wed, 2 Jun 2021, 11:11 am Brian Wolff, bawolff@gmail.com wrote:
Also HHVM and Blazegraph.
-- Brian
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021, Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
On 5/29/21 5:59 PM, Brian Wolff wrote:
It sounds like phabricator upstream is going away: https://admin.phacility.com/phame/post/view/11/phacility_is_winding_down_ope... < https://admin.phacility.com/phame/post/view/11/phacility_is_winding_down_ope...
On the general topic, it's worrying to me this is the third major platform/software that Wikimedia relies on that is gone, with little notice. OTRS went EOL 2 days before Christmas last year[1] and Freenode well, switched hands and imploded.
In all 3 cases though it's been pretty clear beforehand that something was wrong or unsustainable. OTRS didn't release their community edition on time[2], Freenode has had questionable governance for a while now, the "Freenode Limited" company was created in 2017, and Phabricator/Phacility has been maintained by a single person (who's done great work, no doubt) in a way that did not really encourage upstream contributions to build a sustainable community of contributors (my impression, correct me if I'm wrong).
And with COVID-19, plenty of IRL businesses/shops/etc. have gone under or just closed down so it's unsurprising that we're seeing the effect in tech/FOSS too.
I think it would be a good idea if we can check in on our upstreams[2], have sustainable governance, identifying if they assistance/support, and then figuring out how to provide what's needed.
To start with, I think we have a unique opportunity to influence the governance of Libera Chat given they're just starting off and appear to be interested in getting our feedback[3].
[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T275294 [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Upstream_projects [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Forum#Libera_Chat_governance
-- Legoktm _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list -- wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to wikitech-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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Le 02/06/2021 à 03:35, K. Peachey a écrit :
There is also one of the search systems migrating to non O/S from memory... elastic?
Hello,
Yes that is ElasticSearch. They have recently announced they are now licensing code under Server Side Public License (SSPL) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Side_Public_License it is a viral license which in short requires that any service based on such code get licensed with the same license. I am not a lawyer, but I guess that would imply that our whole stack switch to it as well. As such it is not considered free by Debian or the Open Source Initiative (OSI).
As I understand it, the move has been made possible since all contributions were subject to a Contributor License Agreement (CLA) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributor_License_Agreement. So that although the code was placed under a free license, the CLA effectively grants unrestricted publishing right to an organization, they can thus relicense the code however they want. If I get it right, the old code is still under a free license but it can also be used under the new non free license. As I get it the move has been done due to frictions with Amazon which is providing a search service. Amazon announced they would be behind the free community fork: https://www.opensearch.org/ https://www.opensearch.org/
Antoine "hashar" Musso
I suspect there's much more than just this list, even if we just restrict it to "major" components. On Analytics, we've had to adjust as the following systems EOL-ed or changed licensing:
* Pivot (moved to Turnilo, a fork) * Camus (moving to Gobblin) * Kafka Connect
On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 5:16 AM Antoine Musso hashar@free.fr wrote:
Le 02/06/2021 à 03:35, K. Peachey a écrit :
There is also one of the search systems migrating to non O/S from memory... elastic?
Hello,
Yes that is ElasticSearch. They have recently announced they are now licensing code under Server Side Public License (SSPL) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Side_Public_License it is a viral license which in short requires that any service based on such code get licensed with the same license. I am not a lawyer, but I guess that would imply that our whole stack switch to it as well. As such it is not considered free by Debian or the Open Source Initiative (OSI).
As I understand it, the move has been made possible since all contributions were subject to a Contributor License Agreement (CLA) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributor_License_Agreement. So that although the code was placed under a free license, the CLA effectively grants unrestricted publishing right to an organization, they can thus relicense the code however they want. If I get it right, the old code is still under a free license but it can also be used under the new non free license. As I get it the move has been done due to frictions with Amazon which is providing a search service. Amazon announced they would be behind the free community fork: https://www.opensearch.org/
Antoine "hashar" Musso
Wikitech-l mailing list -- wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to wikitech-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikitech-l.lists.wikimedia.org/
I think one part of the problem is that we don't have a comprehensive catalog of our dependencies and their dependencies (and so on). Having such list helps us understand hidden patterns in our infra ("we are depending too much on facebook products") or try to reduce complexities by harmonizing them (http://boringtechnology.club/)
At least having a structured catalog is a good starting point IMHO. Best
On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 6:53 PM Dan Andreescu dandreescu@wikimedia.org wrote:
I suspect there's much more than just this list, even if we just restrict it to "major" components. On Analytics, we've had to adjust as the following systems EOL-ed or changed licensing:
- Pivot (moved to Turnilo, a fork)
- Camus (moving to Gobblin)
- Kafka Connect
On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 5:16 AM Antoine Musso hashar@free.fr wrote:
Le 02/06/2021 à 03:35, K. Peachey a écrit :
There is also one of the search systems migrating to non O/S from memory... elastic?
Hello,
Yes that is ElasticSearch. They have recently announced they are now licensing code under Server Side Public License (SSPL) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Side_Public_License it is a viral license which in short requires that any service based on such code get licensed with the same license. I am not a lawyer, but I guess that would imply that our whole stack switch to it as well. As such it is not considered free by Debian or the Open Source Initiative (OSI).
As I understand it, the move has been made possible since all contributions were subject to a Contributor License Agreement (CLA) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contributor_License_Agreement. So that although the code was placed under a free license, the CLA effectively grants unrestricted publishing right to an organization, they can thus relicense the code however they want. If I get it right, the old code is still under a free license but it can also be used under the new non free license. As I get it the move has been done due to frictions with Amazon which is providing a search service. Amazon announced they would be behind the free community fork: https://www.opensearch.org/
Antoine "hashar" Musso
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On 6/5/21 10:56 AM, Amir Sarabadani wrote:
I think one part of the problem is that we don't have a comprehensive catalog of our dependencies and their dependencies (and so on).
Do you mean something different than https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Upstream_projects? (which is missing a lot of items and could use lots of expansion :))
-- Legoktm
That's pretty good but I feel something specific to Wikimedia is needed. Like analytics cluster, wmcs, ... and It should be in wikitech. It'll be so big that I think it would need subpages, etc. Just thinking out loud.
On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 5:22 PM Kunal Mehta legoktm@debian.org wrote:
On 6/5/21 10:56 AM, Amir Sarabadani wrote:
I think one part of the problem is that we don't have a comprehensive catalog of our dependencies and their dependencies (and so on).
Do you mean something different than https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Upstream_projects? (which is missing a lot of items and could use lots of expansion :))
-- Legoktm _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list -- wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe send an email to wikitech-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikitech-l.lists.wikimedia.org/
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