I heard there was some complain surrounding the fundraising message. I would like to clarify a couple of points, and make a suggestion or two.
The fundraising banner was set because there was an ongoing interview of Jimbo on Slashdot.
Given the number of visits we have each time WP is slashdotted, and given that the last time WP was on /. there were many discussions about donations and other means to get money to run the project, it appeared to be a good choice to make "donation link" temporarily much more visible. This fundraising banner will only stay up for a couple of days.
This was not planned so we could not really discuss it in length beforehand. It was more an opportunity. As far as I know, the message was initially set only to be on en.I understood that the message was then made active on all wikipedias, without warning. And several languages were quite upset by this message. Several criticisms were voiced, and in particular the fact it was not translated. Some people then started translating the message in their respective languages. Finally, while several languages were already translated, the message was removed from the non english wikipedias, again without warning. further upsetting some people.
I was not there when that happened but a couple of people told me about it yesterday, in particular Sj who I think helped on the translations, and I saw comments on the french wikipedia as well, since a vote was started to have the banner removed. I was also nicely explained I should have made a page to explain why the banner was on, how long it would stay on and so on. Of course, that page should have been in 50 languages all at once. I agree with all this, but it is just not possible that one, or even two people make this all by themselves, in particular when time is short. This is only possible if more people are automatically made aware of the issue, and can come and help.
Here are the points which were pointed at
1. the fundraising campaign was not discussed beforehand2. Non english wikipedias were not warned before the message was set3. Non english wikipedias were not warned before the message was removed4. Non english wikipedias were not explained the reasons why the message was set,so it came unexpectedly. They were not told either it would be temporary.5. The message appeared everywhere in english, and people did not know how to have it translated6. The message is not pretty (location in the page, red border, police size...)7. The message appears on every page (not enough discretion)
If we let aside the fact it was decided very quickly, so not discussed before hand, I see two major issues at stake here.
First, the message is not pretty and is �defacing� the wikipedia pages. Each time this banner is up, people complain about it. Would it be possible that someone try to think where it would be best to place it, and to have it be visible, but not outrageously visible ?
The second issue is simple. It is just a communication issue between projects.
We discussed it with Sj yesterday, and here is a proposal. Within one project, communication works quite well.
Mailing lists is another channel, but it only covers some of the people. Not everyone is registered to wikipedia-l or foundation-l or wikitech-l. And not everyone understands english. And unfortunately, it seems few of those understanding take the time to have the information flow.
IRC is a great information channel when speed is required, but again, not everyone is on irc.
Meta is getting slowly a rather good information channel, but only those visiting meta know the information, and again do not necessarily spread it. I doubt very much goings-on are regularly updated on most projects. The source is reliable, but structurally very slow, because people do not come everyday.
So, in the end, the ONLY way to have information be known on all projects, by everyone and very rapidly, is this little red banner. This is why we use it for server downtime warning, for elections warning, for fundraising and such.
I think another tool would be very much welcome. What I would like to see is something similar to the current �you have a message�. A little warning at the top of every page (anonymous included), indicating the editor that new global information is available. For example, when a down time is planned 48 hours in advance, do we really need a huge and highly visible message on each page for 48 hours ? Not really, we just need to be warned once, and the highly visible banner could be set just before the down actually occur.I could figure an additional link in the menu, where we could add global information, for example [[Global news]]. The information could be added one paragraph at a time on meta, and in english. It could be in a mediawiki page or a form. Once edited, it would appear on all projects, in english by default, but will be editable easily for translation (just as a mediawiki page, and in this case, it will always be a unique mediawiki page, so users won�t have to look for the page to translate it). That way, anyone reading the message first, could translate it at once for the other readers.
Each time the meta message page is updated (each time a message is added to the meta page, or through a form), a warning of the type �you have a message� would appear to all users on all projects. They can click on it to access the global news page. Once the page is read, the warning message would disappear, but the information still be available from the menu in the �global news� page. Each language would be responsible from cleaning up their message page little by little, for translating it, or not translating it (depending on the local editors)I do not foresee a new message being added every day. We should be careful not to abuse of it, and really use it for relevant information, when we want information to be delivered very quickly or when we really want to ensure every one is informed.
I view it a bit like the announcement-l mailing list which was an attempt to do this, but never really worked. I think doing it directly on the website would ensure that everyone is really aware of the announcement and every one can easily participate to its translation.
Is this technically possible ? Is this suitable ? What do you think ? Do you have other ideas ?
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From: Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:47:40 -0700 (PDT)
Is this technically possible ? Is this suitable ? What do you think ? Do you have other ideas ?
How about a link on this (and any future) such announcements that says something like "What's this announcement all about?" It could point to a page explaining everything you just did about the banner (that it's temporary, because of a Slashdot interview with Jim, ads on pages -- even self-promotion ads -- isn't something Wikipedia normally does, etc.)
-Bill Clark
Yes Bill, but... the whole issue is that it has to be quickly available for all projects ... ie, about 300 right now (okay, we could reduce this to perhaps 80 active ones perhaps). If we have to create 80 pages for each language on each project, better just give up now. One person can't do it alone. He cant create 80 pages and cant create 80 translations alone in a couple of hours.
The other point of my proposal is precisely to make it possible that information is available to all, without being necessarily displayed very visibly.
Unfortunately yes, it requires development, so if no one is interested by doing it, it wont be done at all.
Still, this is what machines, bots can do for us, replace humans for works which take too much time.
Bill Clark wrote:
From: Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:47:40 -0700 (PDT)
Is this technically possible ? Is this suitable ? What do you think ? Do you have other ideas ?
How about a link on this (and any future) such announcements that says something like "What's this announcement all about?" It could point to a page explaining everything you just did about the banner (that it's temporary, because of a Slashdot interview with Jim, ads on pages -- even self-promotion ads -- isn't something Wikipedia normally does, etc.)
-Bill Clark
On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:51:32 +0200, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Yes Bill, but... the whole issue is that it has to be quickly available for all projects ... ie, about 300 right now (okay, we could reduce this to perhaps 80 active ones perhaps).
We could still go for the low-hanging fruit and stick an "About this message" link on the most popular projects. That would eliminate a lot of the questions and complaints people have, I'd think.
If we have to create 80 pages for each language on each project, better just give up now. One person can't do it alone. He cant create 80 pages and cant create 80 translations alone in a couple of hours.
I know they're still not great, but has anyone looked at some of the automated translation tools for some of this? If the message is simple enough, the translations might not get TOO garbled. (Oh, who am I kidding? They stink. Right?)
The other point of my proposal is precisely to make it possible that information is available to all, without being necessarily displayed very visibly.
Maybe something in the top part of the page, where the username and such are displayed? An "announcements" link that changes color when there are new notices?
Or if it's something we want to make sure people don't miss, we could go the route of making a (shudder) "splash" page for the site, so that the very first thing visitors see is the donation message.
(As an aside, perhaps for a certain level of donation we could offer mugs or tote-bags with the Wikipedia logo on them? <smirk>)
Unfortunately yes, it requires development, so if no one is interested by doing it, it wont be done at all.
I'm going to be very happy to do development... once I familiarize myself with the code base. Now, if I just spent more time actually moving forward on that familiarization, rather than just talking about it... (...then I think my paying clients would probably be upset with me.)
Still, this is what machines, bots can do for us, replace humans for works which take too much time.
We were talking earlier about a custom bot interface on the website, but here's another thought: A separate, special "internal" bot mechanism whereby scripts can run directly on the server, available only for tasks that are *part* of the Wikipedia, rather than those having to do with articles themselves. The python bot code could probably be adapted for this purpose, and would provide a standard way of making server-side maintenance scripts.
-Bill Clark
Bill Clark wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:51:32 +0200, Anthere anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Yes Bill, but... the whole issue is that it has to be quickly available for all projects ... ie, about 300 right now (okay, we could reduce this to perhaps 80 active ones perhaps).
We could still go for the low-hanging fruit and stick an "About this message" link on the most popular projects. That would eliminate a lot of the questions and complaints people have, I'd think.
Yes, but this message would have to be hosted on meta, and have a "edit" this page, so that users could add translations to it.
If we have to create 80 pages for each language on each project, better just give up now. One person can't do it alone. He cant create 80 pages and cant create 80 translations alone in a couple of hours.
I know they're still not great, but has anyone looked at some of the automated translation tools for some of this? If the message is simple enough, the translations might not get TOO garbled. (Oh, who am I kidding? They stink. Right?)
They stink :-) The problem is that even if you use a translation tool, you still have to go to each wiki in turn and post the translation. The translation, then the edition takes a minimum of 5 minutes each.
The other point of my proposal is precisely to make it possible that information is available to all, without being necessarily displayed very visibly.
Maybe something in the top part of the page, where the username and such are displayed? An "announcements" link that changes color when there are new notices?
Good idea. Of course, that means that only loggued in people would get warned, but we could still have an annoucements page in the tool bar.
Or if it's something we want to make sure people don't miss, we could go the route of making a (shudder) "splash" page for the site, so that the very first thing visitors see is the donation message.
No way :-)
I'm going to be very happy to do development... once I familiarize myself with the code base. Now, if I just spent more time actually moving forward on that familiarization, rather than just talking about it... (...then I think my paying clients would probably be upset with me.)
This is very good news :-)
Still, this is what machines, bots can do for us, replace humans for works which take too much time.
We were talking earlier about a custom bot interface on the website, but here's another thought: A separate, special "internal" bot mechanism whereby scripts can run directly on the server, available only for tasks that are *part* of the Wikipedia, rather than those having to do with articles themselves. The python bot code could probably be adapted for this purpose, and would provide a standard way of making server-side maintenance scripts.
-Bill Clark
Hum, I am not sure I understand this well. Let me try to explain what I imagine. Dunno if that is technically possible.
On meta (for example), there is a page called [[annoucements]].
------ This page is built this way
*10 juillet 2004 : [[mediawiki:We got an award !]] ([[edit this comment]])
*8 juillet 2004 : [[mediawiki:German Wikipedia on TV]] ([[edit this comment]])
*5 juillet 2004 : [[mediawiki:Servers will be down on the 14th of july]] ([[edit this comment]])
------
on each wiki, for each user, an announcement link is available somewhere. When the user click on it, he will read
-------
*10 juillet 2004 : Wikipedia received an award today, blablabla ([[edit this comment]])
*8 juillet 2004 : The German Wikipedia was featured on TV yesterday evening... Arne said... the hits during the show were amazing... ([[edit this comment]])
*5 juillet 2004 : Holiday time : servers will be down on the 14th of july ... ([[edit this comment]])
------
The text displayed per default will be the one wrote on meta, but as soon as someone click on [[edit this comment]], the translation will replace the original text on the local site.
Each time the [[announcements]] page is modified on meta, users will be notified on their wiki.
What it mostly needs is that the information on meta is automatically loaded on each local project.
Possible ?
Hi Anthère,
As I already said, I think that people requesting to remove this kind of banner are nor very responsible. It is necessary that this information reaches everybody.
Le Thursday 15 July 2004 14:47, Anthere a écrit :
I think another tool would be very much welcome. What I would like to see is something similar to the current you have a message. A little warning
(...)
Is this technically possible ? Is this suitable ? What do you think ? Do you have other ideas ?
I think that this is a great idea. It would meet most of the concerns people have about this.
Regards, Yann
Yann Forget yann@forget-me.net wrote:
Hi Anth�re,
As I already said, I think that people requesting to remove this kind of banner are nor very responsible. It is necessary that this information reaches everybody.
You are correct. It is necessary that information reaches everybody. We are currently trying to gather and centralize information and little by little we are really improving on this, *but* we are still expecting people to come voluntarily look for the information we gathered. And this is just not happening. Some people go and look for information, but most are rather expecting to be directly given digested information. I do not criticize this attitude, it is mostly a question of time and of interest. Hunting for information is mostly a full time job :-) Once we start hunting for information, we do not have any more time available for other activities. This is just not efficient an option.
In short, we should not expect that people come to the information, but we should make the information goes to people. But collecting, digesting and translating information is heavy job, so we must find a way so that many people are involved in those steps.
I would not say those who requested the banner to be removed are not responsible, but rather that they are not informed. It is perfectly understandable that people get upset because things happen without them being asked their opinion, or without them having enough information to just understand why this has been done. It is also perfectly understandable that they feel decisions are being dropped on them.
If they knew better our current financial situation, I think they would react differently. They would also react differently if the banner was not so aggressive. They would also react differently if they could immediately and easily translate it in local language, and also differently if they could locally choose for the banner to be on or to be off.
And indeed, donations call was mostly interesting on the english projects, because /. is in english; Still, some small wikipedia were happy to have the donation banner, and got upset *when* it was removed :-(
So...oh well...
Le Thursday 15 July 2004 14:47, Anthere a �crit :
I think another tool would be very much welcome. What I would like to see is something similar to the current �you have a message�. A little warning
(...)
Is this technically possible ? Is this suitable ? What do you think ? Do you have other ideas ?
I think that this is a great idea. It would meet most of the concerns people have about this.
Regards, Yann
I thank you very much Yann :-)
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Bonjour Anthere,
Some further thoughts after a good sleep:
This was not planned so we could not really discuss it in length beforehand.
[-A-]nnouncements
There needs to be a way to notify active community members about a sudden change, before random visitors (the bulk of our Audience, and /potential/ community members) are exposed to the fallout.
Some sort of read-only mailing list for announcements (like announcement-l) could be an important part of this communication setup; for instance, if I were on a wikibreak, I would only hear about things via mailing lists or personal email. Likewise, I could filter mail from an important low-traffic announcements list to my PDA or phone.
[-B-]roadcasting sudden change
There should be a checklist for discussing/preparing for/announcing sudden changes: * message-box on all affected wm projects (Ant's proposal) * one-line comment in #wp, #wm, #mw as appropriate * quick email to wikipedia-l, an announcement-l, other lists (as appropriate) * quick note on [[meta:Goings-on]] (perhaps just the contents of the above email)
These could be implemented after the change, if urgency demands, but soon after, and with relevant details (who, when, why, for how long). In addition to helping clarify to the community what is going on, this would provide a feedback loop for the various people involved in deciding what to do, to help reduce the ''telephone'' effect.
< I was also nicely explained I should have made a page [about] why the banner was < on, how long it would stay... Of course that page should have been in 50 languages.
[-C-]oordinated Translation
This is very much on my mind right now. (see [-F-] Crude CMS below)
I created a "translate this into every language" section of [[meta:Translation]], & seeded it with the text for the image-upload forms (currently only in de:) ... please tell me (everyone!) what you think of that template.
This is only possible if more people are automatically made aware of the issue, and can come and help.
[-A*-] Being able to make an announcement to those interested in helping, before affecting first-time visitors (and those not interested in helping), would be useful here.
- The message appears on every page (not enough discretion)
[-D-]iscretion
As for this -- I think many other compromises might have been reached. Without greatly reducing the number of visitors who see the message, we could decide to limit its appearance in various ways * Not on User pages. * Only on article/Talk pages, and not on the Main Page. * Only on every tenth page-load, for logged-in users. &c, &c.
- The message appeared everywhere in english, and people did not know how to
have it translated
< ...
Once edited, it would appear on all projects, in english by default, but will be editable easily for translation (just as a mediawiki page,
[-E-]diting and translating.
Note that, while [edit] links were there for most wp's, only Admins were able to edit the protected message yesterday. Some middle-ground of protection, allowing anyone to edit/translate but requiring an admin to approve it, might improve this process.
Each time the meta message page is updated, a warning of the type ''you have a message'' would appear to all users on all projects. Once the page is read, the warning message would disappear, but the information still be available from the menu in the "global news" page.
[-F-]low ( crude workflow : Discussion --> Translation --> Notice --> Publication )
We need to take ourselves seriously as publishers. I would like to see a tiny bit of coordinated workflow introduced into major all-projects all-pages publication decisions. For instance:
1) An initial announcement is posted to [[Meta:Announcements]] (perhaps also to #wp or #wm) in a single language, along with a brief notice/explanation. 2) A standard message is sent to all translators, ambassadors, & admins notifying them that an announcement is being prepared. Anyone who catches this post or message can suggest rewording, timing for the two delays below, or translations (in a specified place/format) --- delay 1 --- 3) The notices are sent out in translated langs, with links to the announcement... via a "New Announcement" banner for logged-in users, or just a combination of mailing lists, IRC, and goings-on. This would give the broader community notice, and a chance to comment on the translations, even a chance to comment on the placement (and discretion) of the proposed message on their project pages. --- delay 2 --- 4) Announcements are published -- banners for all users saying "New Announcement", or a direct banner message.
We're a big enough project that even with two delays of only an hour each, this could have respectable results.
+sj+
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