Hi everyone,
I'm trying to figure out the reason behind some decisions that were made in the past about bot flags to see if we can have a more optimal and clear setup.
Presently, giving an account the bot flag does two things:
1. When editing via the API, allows the user to choose whether or not to flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter. 2. When editing via the standard editing interface, flags all edits (i.e. all human made edits) as bot edits.
If you've not got the bot flag, the API will ignore you if you try to flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter.
So I've got a few questions to help me figure this out.
1. What's the user story for including the edit-level granularity for bot accounts in the API? 2. What's the user story for making it so that every edit made by a human on a bot account is flagged as bot edit?
Thanks, Dan
Actually there are a few cases in the non API where bots can assert not being a bot, and there are some cases where non-bots can flag as bots for specific cases (I know it in the past it was used to suppress RC floods of mass vandalism reverts by admins) so your picture isnt complete
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi everyone,
I'm trying to figure out the reason behind some decisions that were made in the past about bot flags to see if we can have a more optimal and clear setup.
Presently, giving an account the bot flag does two things:
- When editing via the API, allows the user to choose whether or not to
flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter. 2. When editing via the standard editing interface, flags all edits (i.e. all human made edits) as bot edits.
If you've not got the bot flag, the API will ignore you if you try to flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter.
So I've got a few questions to help me figure this out.
- What's the user story for including the edit-level granularity for
bot accounts in the API? 2. What's the user story for making it so that every edit made by a human on a bot account is flagged as bot edit?
Thanks, Dan
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager for Platform and Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Can you help me out and tell me what those cases are? I've been editing for nine years and not stumbled upon them, so I'm very curious.
Thanks, Dan
On 19 May 2014 19:13, John phoenixoverride@gmail.com wrote:
Actually there are a few cases in the non API where bots can assert not being a bot, and there are some cases where non-bots can flag as bots for specific cases (I know it in the past it was used to suppress RC floods of mass vandalism reverts by admins) so your picture isnt complete
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi everyone,
I'm trying to figure out the reason behind some decisions that were made
in
the past about bot flags to see if we can have a more optimal and clear setup.
Presently, giving an account the bot flag does two things:
- When editing via the API, allows the user to choose whether or not
to
flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter. 2. When editing via the standard editing interface, flags all edits (i.e. all human made edits) as bot edits.
If you've not got the bot flag, the API will ignore you if you try to
flag
an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter.
So I've got a few questions to help me figure this out.
- What's the user story for including the edit-level granularity for
bot accounts in the API? 2. What's the user story for making it so that every edit made by a human on a bot account is flagged as bot edit?
Thanks, Dan
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager for Platform and Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Sorry, I mean, can you tell me specifically how that's done? I don't know that.
Thanks, Dan
On 19 May 2014 19:33, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
Can you help me out and tell me what those cases are? I've been editing for nine years and not stumbled upon them, so I'm very curious.
Thanks, Dan
On 19 May 2014 19:13, John phoenixoverride@gmail.com wrote:
Actually there are a few cases in the non API where bots can assert not being a bot, and there are some cases where non-bots can flag as bots for specific cases (I know it in the past it was used to suppress RC floods of mass vandalism reverts by admins) so your picture isnt complete
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi everyone,
I'm trying to figure out the reason behind some decisions that were
made in
the past about bot flags to see if we can have a more optimal and clear setup.
Presently, giving an account the bot flag does two things:
- When editing via the API, allows the user to choose whether or
not to
flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter. 2. When editing via the standard editing interface, flags all edits (i.e. all human made edits) as bot edits.
If you've not got the bot flag, the API will ignore you if you try to
flag
an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter.
So I've got a few questions to help me figure this out.
- What's the user story for including the edit-level granularity for
bot accounts in the API? 2. What's the user story for making it so that every edit made by a human on a bot account is flagged as bot edit?
Thanks, Dan
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager for Platform and Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
-- Dan Garry Associate Product Manager for Platform and Mobile Apps Wikimedia Foundation
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
Can you help me out and tell me what those cases are? I've been editing for nine years and not stumbled upon them, so I'm very curious.
If you are a sysop, you can either add bot=1 to a rollback URL by hand (unlike most other state-changing actions, rollbacks are done via GET requests so you can do them with a single click), or go to a user's contribution list and add bot=1 to that URL (which will in turn add it to every rollback URL on the page). The related userright is markbotedits.
Admins have the ability to mark their rollbacks as bot edits? Wow, that's fascinating. Talk about edge cases.
Thanks Gergő!
Dan
On 19 May 2014 19:51, Gergo Tisza gtisza@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
Can you help me out and tell me what those cases are? I've been editing
for
nine years and not stumbled upon them, so I'm very curious.
If you are a sysop, you can either add bot=1 to a rollback URL by hand (unlike most other state-changing actions, rollbacks are done via GET requests so you can do them with a single click), or go to a user's contribution list and add bot=1 to that URL (which will in turn add it to every rollback URL on the page). The related userright is markbotedits. _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
- When editing via the API, allows the user to choose whether or not to
flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter.
I'm responsible for this part of the mess. I don't remember why it was done this way though. I think the people that I took over the API edit code from had put this feature in and I kept it.
What I think was going on is that no one could be bothered to figure out how to represent "I am a human editing using a bot account and I'd like this edit to not be bot-flagged" in the UI, so it wasn't done. But in the API it was trivial (&bot=1), so it was done.
That's just my recollection of it and it's probably flawed, this was 6-7 years ago.
Roan
As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is necessary but I think the best solution would be having something like "flag=1" (optional) and this causes bot edits to be marked as human and for admin (+flooders) edits marked as bot.
Implementing the parameter (whether the current status quo or my suggestion) in UI is important, I think adding a mark box besides minor and watch options would be great (for bots, admins and flooders) Best
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:59 AM, Roan Kattouw roan.kattouw@gmail.comwrote:
On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
- When editing via the API, allows the user to choose whether or not
to
flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter.
I'm responsible for this part of the mess. I don't remember why it was done this way though. I think the people that I took over the API edit code from had put this feature in and I kept it.
What I think was going on is that no one could be bothered to figure out how to represent "I am a human editing using a bot account and I'd like this edit to not be bot-flagged" in the UI, so it wasn't done. But in the API it was trivial (&bot=1), so it was done.
That's just my recollection of it and it's probably flawed, this was 6-7 years ago.
Roan
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is necessary
Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what you use this for, to help me understand? :-)
Implementing the parameter (whether the current status quo or my suggestion) in UI is important, I think adding a mark box besides minor and watch options would be great (for bots, admins and flooders)
I think so too. Display it only to people with the bot flag, and their edits will be tagged as bot edits iff they check the box. The API would be unaffected, and continue to function as it did before.
As a product manager I am wary of adding more clutter into the already busy edit interface, but given the scope of the feature (i.e. it only displays to people flagged as bots), I think it'd be okay.
Dan
On May 20, 2014 8:39 AM, "Dan Garry" dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is necessary
Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what you use this for, to help me understand? :-)
Implementing the parameter (whether the current status quo or my suggestion) in UI is important, I think adding a mark box besides minor
and
watch options would be great (for bots, admins and flooders)
I think so too. Display it only to people with the bot flag, and their edits will be tagged as bot edits iff they check the box. The API would be unaffected, and continue to function as it did before.
As a product manager I am wary of adding more clutter into the already
busy
edit interface, but given the scope of the feature (i.e. it only displays to people flagged as bots), I think it'd be okay.
If it is role based ('bot'), why not change it (in 1.24?) to always *not* flag the UI edits as bot edits, displaying a warning to that effect?
Do we have many UI scaping bot frameworks in use these days?
-- John
Because humans use it these days, not boys generally in the web interface and it would just make stuff harder for people that use it…
On Tuesday, May 20, 2014, John Mark Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com wrote:
On May 20, 2014 8:39 AM, "Dan Garry" <dgarry@wikimedia.org javascript:;> wrote:
On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com javascript:;>
wrote:
As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is necessary
Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what you use this for, to help me understand? :-)
Implementing the parameter (whether the current status quo or my suggestion) in UI is important, I think adding a mark box besides minor
and
watch options would be great (for bots, admins and flooders)
I think so too. Display it only to people with the bot flag, and their edits will be tagged as bot edits iff they check the box. The API would
be
unaffected, and continue to function as it did before.
As a product manager I am wary of adding more clutter into the already
busy
edit interface, but given the scope of the feature (i.e. it only displays to people flagged as bots), I think it'd be okay.
If it is role based ('bot'), why not change it (in 1.24?) to always *not* flag the UI edits as bot edits, displaying a warning to that effect?
Do we have many UI scaping bot frameworks in use these days?
-- John _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org javascript:; https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:39 AM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is necessary
Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what you use this for, to help me understand? :-)
I think an example of bot using this API parameter is Salebot on frwiki : when it reverts a vandalism, this edit is not marked with the bot flag so that it appears in the recent changes, and made human aware that a vandalism has been reverted. For other things, it may have its edit marked with the bot flag.
Nico
On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote:
On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is necessary
Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what you use this for, to help me understand? :-)
If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for humans to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't flag it's edits with the bot flag so humans can review them.
Another case where this recently came up is in MassMessage (bug 65180). Some edits like those to user talk pages should be marked as a bot since the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are made to Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so users will see them in their watchlists.
-- Legoktm
Thank you legoktm for exampling, Another case that happened in Persian Wikipedia, is creating bot-generated articles by user request this task is too contervisal to be marked as bot and we didn't mark it but other edits of my bot is marked as bot
Best
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Legoktm legoktm.wikipedia@gmail.comwrote:
On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote:
On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is
necessary
Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what you
use this for, to help me understand? :-)
If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for humans to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't flag it's edits with the bot flag so humans can review them.
Another case where this recently came up is in MassMessage (bug 65180). Some edits like those to user talk pages should be marked as a bot since the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are made to Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so users will see them in their watchlists.
-- Legoktm
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
I'm confused. Why wouldn't you just mark a user account as being a bot and simply determine bot edits from username alone?
Any other mechanism seems prone to abuse or being inaccurate... On 20 May 2014 07:36, "Amir Ladsgroup" ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Thank you legoktm for exampling, Another case that happened in Persian Wikipedia, is creating bot-generated articles by user request this task is too contervisal to be marked as bot and we didn't mark it but other edits of my bot is marked as bot
Best
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia@gmail.com
wrote:
On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote:
On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is
necessary
Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what you
use this for, to help me understand? :-)
If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for humans to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't flag
it's
edits with the bot flag so humans can review them.
Another case where this recently came up is in MassMessage (bug 65180). Some edits like those to user talk pages should be marked as a bot since the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are made
to
Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so users will see them in their watchlists.
-- Legoktm
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
-- Amir _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Bot flags are only given out to people that are trusted to not abuse it. I'd say this works quite well, because cases of people abusing the fact that the bot flag hides edits from recent changes are almost entirely unheard of.
Dan
On 20 May 2014 09:05, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
I'm confused. Why wouldn't you just mark a user account as being a bot and simply determine bot edits from username alone?
Any other mechanism seems prone to abuse or being inaccurate... On 20 May 2014 07:36, "Amir Ladsgroup" ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Thank you legoktm for exampling, Another case that happened in Persian Wikipedia, is creating
bot-generated
articles by user request this task is too contervisal to be marked as bot and we didn't mark it but other edits of my bot is marked as bot
Best
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia@gmail.com
wrote:
On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote:
On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is
necessary
Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what
you
use this for, to help me understand? :-)
If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for
humans
to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't flag
it's
edits with the bot flag so humans can review them.
Another case where this recently came up is in MassMessage (bug 65180). Some edits like those to user talk pages should be marked as a bot
since
the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are made
to
Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so users
will
see them in their watchlists.
-- Legoktm
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
-- Amir _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
I'm confused. Why wouldn't you just mark a user account as being a bot and simply determine bot edits from username alone?
Any other mechanism seems prone to abuse or being inaccurate...
People gave several examples of bot tasks that needs to be seen in RC and they weren't abuse
On 20 May 2014 07:36, "Amir Ladsgroup" ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Thank you legoktm for exampling, Another case that happened in Persian Wikipedia, is creating
bot-generated
articles by user request this task is too contervisal to be marked as bot and we didn't mark it but other edits of my bot is marked as bot
Best
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia@gmail.com
wrote:
On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote:
On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is
necessary
Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what
you
use this for, to help me understand? :-)
If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for
humans
to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't flag
it's
edits with the bot flag so humans can review them.
Another case where this recently came up is in MassMessage (bug 65180). Some edits like those to user talk pages should be marked as a bot
since
the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are made
to
Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so users
will
see them in their watchlists.
-- Legoktm
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
-- Amir _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
So bot tasks are sometimes performed from user accounts that don't belong to bots... o_O why?!
(forgive my naivety I come into this conversation as an outside with no prior knowledge of how this stuff works) On 20 May 2014 14:09, "Amir Ladsgroup" ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
I'm confused. Why wouldn't you just mark a user account as being a bot
and
simply determine bot edits from username alone?
Any other mechanism seems prone to abuse or being inaccurate...
People gave several examples of bot tasks that needs to be seen in RC and they weren't abuse
On 20 May 2014 07:36, "Amir Ladsgroup" ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Thank you legoktm for exampling, Another case that happened in Persian Wikipedia, is creating
bot-generated
articles by user request this task is too contervisal to be marked as
bot
and we didn't mark it but other edits of my bot is marked as bot
Best
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia@gmail.com
wrote:
On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote:
On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not
is
necessary
Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what
you
use this for, to help me understand? :-)
If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for
humans
to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't flag
it's
edits with the bot flag so humans can review them.
Another case where this recently came up is in MassMessage (bug
65180).
Some edits like those to user talk pages should be marked as a bot
since
the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are
made
to
Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so users
will
see them in their watchlists.
-- Legoktm
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
-- Amir _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
-- Amir _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 5:41 PM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
So bot tasks are sometimes performed from user accounts that don't belong to bots... o_O why?!
No, some of bots tasks needs to be seen and reviewed by others, for example there are bots that do task per user request in a page (like an automated vending machine that people can go to a page and request things and bots do it automatically), or automated reverts (that are being made by clue bot NG) or other things that people exampled before in this discussion
(forgive my naivety I come into this conversation as an outside with no prior knowledge of how this stuff works) On 20 May 2014 14:09, "Amir Ladsgroup" ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
I'm confused. Why wouldn't you just mark a user account as being a bot
and
simply determine bot edits from username alone?
Any other mechanism seems prone to abuse or being inaccurate...
People gave several examples of bot tasks that needs to be seen in RC and they weren't abuse
On 20 May 2014 07:36, "Amir Ladsgroup" ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Thank you legoktm for exampling, Another case that happened in Persian Wikipedia, is creating
bot-generated
articles by user request this task is too contervisal to be marked as
bot
and we didn't mark it but other edits of my bot is marked as bot
Best
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Legoktm <
legoktm.wikipedia@gmail.com
wrote:
On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote:
On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not
is
> necessary > > Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and
what
you
use this for, to help me understand? :-)
If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for
humans
to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't
flag
it's
edits with the bot flag so humans can review them.
Another case where this recently came up is in MassMessage (bug
65180).
Some edits like those to user talk pages should be marked as a bot
since
the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are
made
to
Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so
users
will
see them in their watchlists.
-- Legoktm
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
-- Amir _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
-- Amir _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 6:05 AM, Jon Robson jdlrobson@gmail.com wrote:
I'm confused. Why wouldn't you just mark a user account as being a bot and simply determine bot edits from username alone?
Volume? Cluebot does a high volume of edits, but as mentioned, doesn't want the edit hidden from RC.
Any other mechanism seems prone to abuse or being inaccurate... On 20 May 2014 07:36, "Amir Ladsgroup" ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
Thank you legoktm for exampling, Another case that happened in Persian Wikipedia, is creating
bot-generated
articles by user request this task is too contervisal to be marked as bot and we didn't mark it but other edits of my bot is marked as bot
Best
On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Legoktm <legoktm.wikipedia@gmail.com
wrote:
On 5/19/14, 6:39 PM, Dan Garry wrote:
On 19 May 2014 19:36, Amir Ladsgroup ladsgroup@gmail.com wrote:
As a bot operator I think API parameter about flagging bot or not is
necessary
Sure, but as I'm not a bot operator, can you explain why and what
you
use this for, to help me understand? :-)
If the edits should show up in users watchlists/recentchanges for
humans
to look at. An example would be ClueBot NG on enwp which doesn't flag
it's
edits with the bot flag so humans can review them.
Another case where this recently came up is in MassMessage (bug 65180). Some edits like those to user talk pages should be marked as a bot
since
the user will receive a notification regardless, but ones that are made
to
Project (or other) namespaces, should not be flagged as bot so users
will
see them in their watchlists.
-- Legoktm
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On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Dan Garry dgarry@wikimedia.org wrote:
- When editing via the API, allows the user to choose whether or not to
flag an edit as a bot edit using the bot parameter. 2. When editing via the standard editing interface, flags all edits (i.e. all human made edits) as bot edits.
Note for #2, it's possible to submit the edit with a "bot=0" parameter to avoid the edit being marked as "bot". This also works for logged actions (which someday need to be fixed in the API to be able to be non-flagged, much as was done for edits in r29540).
I've always thought the reasons for this disparate behavior are primarily historical: Way back, there was no editing API and the bot userright forced edits from the account to be marked as bot edits. But people discovered, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, that some edits by accounts that should have the bot flag shouldn't be hidden from Watchlists and RecentChanges; on enwiki at least, this led to some bot accounts not being flagged as such. And eventually things were changed so that the flagging of the edit was optional rather than a requirement. For index.php edits this had to be done in a "specify that you don't want this edit flagged" manner to avoid breaking all the existing code. But for the new editing API it could be done more directly, so it was.
As for the lack of a UI for "bot=0" in index.php edits, I expect it's both because others don't want to clutter the UI either and because the editing API now exists for actual bots.
1. What's the user story for including the edit-level granularity for
bot accounts in the API?
"bot" flagging of edits essentially controls whether the edits are hidden by default in Watchlists and RecentChanges. Many bots make a mixture of edits that should be hidden and edits that should not be.
2. What's the user story for making it so that every edit made by a
human on a bot account is flagged as bot edit?
I don't know of one, besides historical reasons as mentioned above. I don't know about the policies on other wikis, but on enwiki a human editing with a bot-flagged account is explicitly doing so to have those edits hidden from RecentChanges and is supposed to use a "regular" account for their normal editing.
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