After reading the entire thread I've got several responses:
On Wed Jul 21 22:27:44 UTC 2010, Ariel T. Glenn ariel at wikimedia.org wrote:
It's much worse than that. On the Wiktionary projects, which have the modest goal of documenting all words in all languages *on each language edition*, you can expect to find german, french, arabic, etc. lemmas on say the russian project. Even worse, you can expect to find multiple lemmas on one page if the lemma has the same orthography in more than one language. If the sort order differs between languages it's loads of fun.
Ariel
Something that comes to mind is Wikimedia Commons. Would the same category with a different uselang be sorted differently ?
So far in this thread I've read that the current idea is to have different sorting depending on language. The language would be set to a certain default per wiki. And it would be possible to overwrite that per page or per category with a certain parser function (I think that would mean a certain piece of Technical metadata in a "Variable" type of Magic word (as defined here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Magic_words#Variables ).
Perhaps an idea is to not set a default per wiki, but a default per language. That way it doesn't have to be set for every wiki that is in the same language. And is easily overridable for multilingual wikis by the uselang-parameter and/or the user's preference. Ofcourse the magic word would override that.
Though I don't know much about how a store-order is stored. It may be possible to maintain it in an interface message. That way a Germanic category on Commons or Wiktionary could use something like:
{{SORTORDER:{{MediaWiki:Categorysortorder/de}}}}
On Wed Jul 21 22:18:02 UTC 2010, Daniel Kinzler daniel at brightbyte.de wrote:
Aryeh Gregor schrieb:
- "Categories need to be structured by namespace",
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=450
- "Natural number sorting in category listings",
While we definitly need efficient retrieval by namespace, the default sort
key
should *not* include the namespace prefix. it's very annoying that all files
get
sorted under "F" currently, or that pages from the Wikipedia namespace all
end
up under "W".
-- daniel
A good example of this are Templates. The vast majority of templates (as far as I can see) are sorted like this, with PAGENAME: [[Category:Special templates|{{PAGENAME}}]]
Setting to false by default may be good. But that would case all types of things to go mixed up. (except ofcourse for Files, Subcategories those would be seperated from 'Pages'). But templates, articles and users would be sorted by pagename. I'm not sure if that behaviour is good. I dont think it's that bad actually, if at all.
Being able to set per namespace may be a solution. Not sure yet.
On Fri Jul 23 03:02:49 UTC 2010, Tim Starling tstarling at wikimedia.org wrote:
On 23/07/10 02:34, Aryeh Gregor wrote:
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Tim Starling <tstarling at wikimedia.org>
wrote:
This restriction is enforced by Title::isValidMoveOperation().
Any objections to changing this so files can't be moved over non-files or vice versa?
No objection. That's mostly how it is already, except when the file doesn't exist but the description page does.
No objection either. However, make sure that the other way around is blocked too. Else one might accidently move a page to the File-namespace without being able to get it back.
-- Krinkle