Sorry for writing only in Portuguese. I'm so strongly wikitired to try to use my en-1 level to full translate this to English.
No multilingual wikisource, vi uma discussão longa e confusa com propostas para um novo logotipo para o Wikisource. No entanto, hoje, após me logar na edição em língua portuguesa do projeto, me deparo com um novo logotipo. Trata-se apenas do logo antigo, mas, como um desenho e de formato arredondado. Onde foi votado pela permanência de tal logo? Em lugar algum.
Permitam-me prosseguir com minhas perguntas. O que esse logotipo "novo" tem a ver com a proposta do projeto? A idéia para isso ser usado em um logotipo era válida apenas enquanto se chamava Project Sourceberg. Uma esfera com um iceberg dentro não está nada ligada à idéia de um acervo em GFDL de textos importantes para a cultura humana. Mas, mesmo assim, adotou-se o novo logotipo, para todos os idiomas, em uma discussão que surge do nada ignorando-se discussões anteriormente feitas.
Me desculpem, mas, me sinto extremamente desconfortável com esse tipo de atitude. O projeto não é feito apenas por alguns. Deveria ter ocorrido uma votação, para que todos os que fazem o projeto pudessem ter se manifestado. Isso me soa como algo tirânico e ditatorial, infelizmente.
Desculpem-me pelo desabafo em língua portuguesa.
Luiz Augusto, [[meta:User:555]], sysop in ptwikipedia and sysop-bureaucrat in ptwikisource
On 5/27/06, Luiz Augusto lugusto@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry for writing only in Portuguese. I'm so strongly wikitired to try to use my en-1 level to full translate this to English.
No multilingual wikisource, vi uma discussão longa e confusa com propostas para um novo logotipo para o Wikisource. No entanto, hoje, após me logar na edição em língua portuguesa do projeto, me deparo com um novo logotipo. Trata-se apenas do logo antigo, mas, como um desenho e de formato arredondado. Onde foi votado pela permanência de tal logo? Em lugar algum.
Permitam-me prosseguir com minhas perguntas. O que esse logotipo "novo" tem a ver com a proposta do projeto? A idéia para isso ser usado em um logotipo era válida apenas enquanto se chamava Project Sourceberg. Uma esfera com um iceberg dentro não está nada ligada à idéia de um acervo em GFDL de textos importantes para a cultura humana. Mas, mesmo assim, adotou-se o novo logotipo, para todos os idiomas, em uma discussão que surge do nada ignorando-se discussões anteriormente feitas.
Me desculpem, mas, me sinto extremamente desconfortável com esse tipo de atitude. O projeto não é feito apenas por alguns. Deveria ter ocorrido uma votação, para que todos os que fazem o projeto pudessem ter se manifestado. Isso me soa como algo tirânico e ditatorial, infelizmente.
Desculpem-me pelo desabafo em língua portuguesa.
Sorry for only speaking English :-). Could a Portuguese speaker translate this (or at least say what the gyst of this message is)? That'd be a real help. Thanks.
Z
A discussion of the logo change is at the scriptorium of the multilingual Wikisource. http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Scriptorium#Logo_update
A summary of that discussion is that some people say that there is problems with the old logo and that we cannot use it (I agree to that). We have discussed the vote for a new logo for a long time without any results. So we need to change the logo and we can't wait for a vote that noone is willing to organise.
The new iceberg logo does not have the problems that the old version has. Those problems were the GFDL-license and the jpeg format. And the new iceberg is not a big change from the old logo. So someone (I am not sure who) decided that we use the new version of the logo.
We can still have a vote and change to a completely new logo if the community wants to. Maybe we should have a poll on the multilingual Wikisource and see if the new iceberg logo has support or if a vote is still needed.
I dont read much portuguese, so I hope this was an answer to your questions. /~~~~
--- Luiz Augusto lugusto@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry for writing only in Portuguese. I'm so strongly wikitired to try to use my en-1 level to full translate this to English.
No multilingual wikisource, vi uma discussão longa e confusa com propostas para um novo logotipo para o Wikisource. No entanto, hoje, após me logar na edição em língua portuguesa do projeto, me deparo com um novo logotipo. Trata-se apenas do logo antigo, mas, como um desenho e de formato arredondado. Onde foi votado pela permanência de tal logo? Em lugar algum.
Permitam-me prosseguir com minhas perguntas. O que esse logotipo "novo" tem a ver com a proposta do projeto? A idéia para isso ser usado em um logotipo era válida apenas enquanto se chamava Project Sourceberg. Uma esfera com um iceberg dentro não está nada ligada à idéia de um acervo em GFDL de textos importantes para a cultura humana. Mas, mesmo assim, adotou-se o novo logotipo, para todos os idiomas, em uma discussão que surge do nada ignorando-se discussões anteriormente feitas.
Me desculpem, mas, me sinto extremamente desconfortável com esse tipo de atitude. O projeto não é feito apenas por alguns. Deveria ter ocorrido uma votação, para que todos os que fazem o projeto pudessem ter se manifestado. Isso me soa como algo tirânico e ditatorial, infelizmente.
Desculpem-me pelo desabafo em língua portuguesa.
Luiz Augusto, [[meta:User:555]], sysop in ptwikipedia and sysop-bureaucrat in ptwikisource
Wikisource-l mailing list Wikisource-l@mail.wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
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On 5/27/06, lejoneln lejoneln@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
We can still have a vote and change to a completely new logo if the community wants to. Maybe we should have a poll on the multilingual Wikisource and see if the new iceberg logo has support or if a vote is still needed.
I also don't know who changed to logo. I know de.ws changed it a little while ago, but I'm not sure who had it changed across the whole project. A vote is still possible, but no one's really interested in organizing it. It's a LOT of work to write up the procedure (especially since this is a submission-based vote), get everything coordinated across all the projects, that most users don't want to take on the time-consuming task. Many editors are fine with the way things currently stand. Of course, if anyone would like to take it upon themselves to organize one, that'd be fine--just realize it will take a lot of dedication if this procedure is not going to stagnate like the previous ones.
Z
Here my very weak attempt in translating until somonee better comes a long
--- Luiz Augusto lugusto@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry for writing only in Portuguese. I'm so strongly wikitired to try to use my en-1 level to full translate this to English.
No multilingual wikisource, vi uma discussão longa e confusa com propostas para um novo logotipo para o Wikisource.
In the multilingual wikisource, I saw a long and cofused quarrel about a propasal for a new logo for Wikisource.
No entanto,
hoje, após me logar na edição em língua portuguesa do projeto, me deparo com um novo logotipo.
However today, after logging into the Portuguese language of the project, I came across a new logo.
Trata-se apenas do logo antigo, mas, como um desenho e de formato arredondado.
It is only treated{derivative version ?) of the old one, but, as a drawing and with a rounded off format.
Onde foi votado pela permanência de tal
logo?
Where it was the vote to permanenly adopt this logo?
Em lugar algum.
In what place.
Permitam-me prosseguir com minhas perguntas.
Allow me to continue with questions of my own.
O que
esse logotipo "novo" tem a ver com a proposta do projeto?
What does this "new" logo have to do with the proposal of the project?
A idéia para isso
ser usado em um logotipo era válida apenas enquanto se chamava Project Sourceberg.
The idea of this logo used be valid only while it was called Project Sourceberg.
Uma esfera com um
iceberg dentro não está nada ligada à idéia de um acervo em GFDL de textos importantes para a cultura humana.
A sphere with one iceberg inside is not nothing to do with the idea of a quantity of important GFDL texts for human culture.
Mas, mesmo assim,
adotou-se o novo logotipo, para todos os idiomas, em uma discussão que surge do nada ignorando-se discussões anteriormente feitas.
But, more exactly, the new logo was sdopted for all languages, in a quarrel the appears to do nothing ingnoring previosly existing quarrels.
Me desculpem, mas, me sinto extremamente desconfortável com esse tipo de atitude.
Forgive me, but, I myself feel very discomforted? with this type of attitude.
O projeto não é feito apenas por alguns.
The project is not made only by some.
Deveria ter ocorrido uma votação, para que todos os que fazem o projeto pudessem ter se manifestado.
There must be a vote, so that all the people who work on the project can reveal their opinions.
Isso me soa como algo tirânico e ditatorial, infelizmente.
This sounds unhappily to me as something tyranical and dictatorial.
Desculpem-me pelo desabafo em língua portuguesa.
Forgive me for the relief of (writing in?) the potugese language.
Luiz Augusto, [[meta:User:555]], sysop in ptwikipedia and sysop-bureaucrat in ptwikisource
Wikisource-l mailing list Wikisource-l@mail.wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
This was done using a translator tool but I took great liberties based on what spanish I know. I appologize for any error
BirgitteSB
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--- Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Here my very weak attempt in translating until somonee better comes a long
--- Luiz Augusto lugusto@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry for writing only in Portuguese. I'm so strongly wikitired to try to use my en-1 level to full translate this to
English.
No multilingual wikisource, vi uma discussão longa
e
confusa com propostas para um novo logotipo para o Wikisource.
In the multilingual wikisource, I saw a long and cofused quarrel about a propasal for a new logo for Wikisource.
No entanto,
hoje, após me logar na edição em língua portuguesa do projeto, me deparo com um novo logotipo.
However today, after logging into the Portuguese language of the project, I came across a new logo.
Trata-se apenas do logo antigo, mas, como um
desenho
e de formato arredondado.
It is only treated{derivative version ?) of the old one, but, as a drawing and with a rounded off format.
Onde foi votado pela permanência de tal
logo?
Where it was the vote to permanenly adopt this logo?
Em lugar algum.
In what place.
Permitam-me prosseguir com minhas perguntas.
Allow me to continue with questions of my own.
O que
esse logotipo "novo" tem a ver com a proposta do projeto?
What does this "new" logo have to do with the proposal of the project?
A idéia para isso
ser usado em um logotipo era válida apenas enquanto se chamava Project Sourceberg.
The idea of this logo used be valid only while it was called Project Sourceberg.
Uma esfera com um
iceberg dentro não está nada ligada à idéia de um acervo em GFDL de textos importantes para a cultura humana.
A sphere with one iceberg inside is not nothing to do with the idea of a quantity of important GFDL texts for human culture.
Mas, mesmo assim,
adotou-se o novo logotipo, para todos os idiomas, em uma discussão que surge do nada ignorando-se discussões anteriormente feitas.
But, more exactly, the new logo was sdopted for all languages, in a quarrel the appears to do nothing ingnoring previosly existing quarrels.
Me desculpem, mas, me sinto extremamente desconfortável com esse tipo de atitude.
Forgive me, but, I myself feel very discomforted? with this type of attitude.
O projeto não é feito apenas por alguns.
The project is not made only by some.
Deveria ter ocorrido uma votação, para que todos os que fazem o projeto pudessem ter se manifestado.
There must be a vote, so that all the people who work on the project can reveal their opinions.
Isso me soa como algo tirânico e ditatorial, infelizmente.
This sounds unhappily to me as something tyranical and dictatorial.
Desculpem-me pelo desabafo em língua portuguesa.
Forgive me for the relief of (writing in?) the potugese language.
Luiz Augusto, [[meta:User:555]], sysop in ptwikipedia and sysop-bureaucrat in ptwikisource
Wikisource-l mailing list Wikisource-l@mail.wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
This was done using a translator tool but I took great liberties based on what spanish I know. I appologize for any error
BirgitteSB
I have simplified this answer for translation.
{portugese mau} Eu simplifiquei esta resposta para a tradução.
There is no permanent accord on the new logo.
{portugese mau} Não há nenhum acordo permanente no um logotipo novo.
People from Wikimedia had valid problems with using a picture as a logo.
{portugese mau} Os povos de Wikimedia tiveram problemas válidos com usar um retrato como um logotipo.
Problems with printing espcecially in greyscale.
{portugese mau} Problemas com imprimir espcecially em preto e no branco somente.
They felt the quarrel had lasted too long without a vote.
{portugese mau} Sentiram que a discussão tinha durado demasiado longo sem um voto.
They insisted on changing from the old logo now while allowing us to organize a vote at any time.
{portugese mau} Insistiram na mudança do logotipo velho agora ao permitem-nós que organizar um voto em em qualquer altura que.
The old logo is gone it does not follow that the new logo is permanent.
{portugese mau} O logo velho é-lhe ido não segue que o logo novo é permanente.
However if no one works to organize a vote, the new logo may become permanent by default.
{portugese mau} Entretanto se ninguém trabalho para organizar um voto, o logotipo novo pode tornar-se permanente pelo defeito.
I have no desire to organize a vote myself.
{portugese mau} Eu não tenho nenhum me desejo organizar um voto.
I hope you now understand what happened more fully.
{portugese mau} Eu espero que você compreenda agora o que aconteceu mais inteiramente
Please take no offence at any errors or my crude style.
{portugese mau} Não faça exame por favor de nenhuma ofensa em nenhuns erros ou em meu estilo cru.
I cannot be as polite as I wish and use any portugese
{portugese mau}Eu não posso ser tão polido como eu desejo e uso portugese
Birgitte SB
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I'm glad that Wikisource finally got rid of the iceberg photo. It was never a logo. I always saw it as a placeholder, nothing more. Unfortunately, the stagnant situation was caused, from what I have observed, by a small but vocal group of users who know very little about design or identity, but who "liked" the iceberg photo and fought tooth and nail to defend it. This is apparently the reason why the best that could be done is a stylized version of the very same iceberg. Oh well.
My personal favorite from the contest was Spirit's logo, though its realism also goes a bit far: http://wikisource.org/wiki/Image:Spirit_ws_02.png
Erik
On 5/27/06, Erik Moeller eloquence@gmail.com wrote:
I'm glad that Wikisource finally got rid of the iceberg photo. It was never a logo. I always saw it as a placeholder, nothing more. Unfortunately, the stagnant situation was caused, from what I have observed, by a small but vocal group of users who know very little about design or identity, but who "liked" the iceberg photo and fought tooth and nail to defend it. This is apparently the reason why the best that could be done is a stylized version of the very same iceberg. Oh well.
That's not completely accurate. The reason the stylized logo is the best that could be done is more related to the fact that no one who wants to change the logo has actually completely followed through in setting up a method to change it, in whatever form that may be--vote, debate, etc. Many of the users who like (or don't dislike) the current logo don't have the motivation to go through and change it (we've got other interests and projects were more motivated to do), and those who try to change it give up fairly quickly and early on in the procedure, thus leaving two failed attempts to change the logo.
It's not so much that the current logo was successfully defended by a "small but vocal group of users who know very little about design or identity" as it was that it was unsuccessfully opposed by a group of users who *do* know about design and identity.
Z
On 5/28/06, Ryan Dabler zhaladshar@gmail.com wrote:
That's not completely accurate. The reason the stylized logo is the best that could be done is more related to the fact that no one who wants to change the logo has actually completely followed through in setting up a method to change it
Datrio made a very nice logo contest page on the multilingual Wikisource: http://wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Wikisource:New_Wikisource_logo&o...
On March 1, ThomasV added a note that "there is no consensus in the community about the need to replace the logo". http://wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Wikisource:New_Wikisource_logo&d...
Then a completely unnecessary vote on the local language editions about the need to replace the logo was started. The logo process has been, to my knowledge, in limbo since.
It's true that Datrio could have done more to defend and enforce the procedures. But ultimately it was pressure from within the community that led to the bureaucratic erosion of what was originally a fairly reasonable and logical logo voting process.
No use crying over spilled milk. But in my opinion, these things should be done on Meta, with the input of the whole Wikimedia community. All Wikimedia users were affected by the iceberg photo (lovely JPEG artifacts, too!) that was used as a placeholder, so all Wikimedia users should have been given a fair chance to participate.
Erik
--- Erik Moeller eloquence@gmail.com wrote:
On 5/28/06, Ryan Dabler zhaladshar@gmail.com wrote:
That's not completely accurate. The reason the
stylized logo is the best
that could be done is more related to the fact
that no one who wants to
change the logo has actually completely followed
through in setting up a
method to change it
Datrio made a very nice logo contest page on the multilingual Wikisource:
http://wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Wikisource:New_Wikisource_logo&o...
On March 1, ThomasV added a note that "there is no consensus in the community about the need to replace the logo".
http://wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Wikisource:New_Wikisource_logo&d...
Then a completely unnecessary vote on the local language editions about the need to replace the logo was started. The logo process has been, to my knowledge, in limbo since.
It's true that Datrio could have done more to defend and enforce the procedures. But ultimately it was pressure from within the community that led to the bureaucratic erosion of what was originally a fairly reasonable and logical logo voting process.
No use crying over spilled milk. But in my opinion, these things should be done on Meta, with the input of the whole Wikimedia community. All Wikimedia users were affected by the iceberg photo (lovely JPEG artifacts, too!) that was used as a placeholder, so all Wikimedia users should have been given a fair chance to participate.
Erik
I believe you misunderstand the situation. A vote that is not adverstised by translated messages amoung all domains is much worse than doing nothing. That is what was stopped. But the ambition to have quick and fast vote in English apparently did not extend to organizing a properly inclusive vote. I am willing to participate is properly organized vote. I do not care so much about changing the logo as to organize one myself. But I would not participate in a vote as Datrio tried to start and the portugese message today is a good example of why. I would not have liked to answer him with "Well learn english and read meta and then you will know about these things". You complain that "Wikimedia users should have been given a fair chance to participate." Please tell me who did participate? I know of no one who was involved the decision. Elian, perhaps, who is more a Wikimedia user the a Wikisource one I think. I am not complaining, the change doesn't bother me and anyone who is bothered by it is welcome to organize another change. I just mean to point out that the idea of an exclusion of Wikimedia users from the recent logo change is without foundation.
Birgitte SB
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On 5/28/06, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
I believe you misunderstand the situation. A vote that is not adverstised by translated messages amoung all domains is much worse than doing nothing.
Translations are helpful if provided within a given time frame (there were 14 days within which this could have been done in Datrio's case). They can by no means be required since they depend on volunteers doing the translation work. Regardless, let's let the issue rest for now as the compromise seems to at least be accepted.
I know of no one who was involved the decision.
You're right that the current decision was essentially forced from the outside. This is the regrettable result of the internal standstill.
Erik
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