--- Luiz Augusto lugusto@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/2/07, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
I also agree with this, and see no need to merge
the
process into Incubator.
Birgitte SB
Sorry, but I don't see anyone trying to move text units from the [[:oldwikisource:]] to the [[:incubator:]]. I think that [[:oldwikisource:]] is working as a great place for texts with no sufficient users to make a new community getting hosted *and* a Incubator-like for new Wikisource wikis and no one (neither I) is trying to change it.
I have proposed at
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource:Scriptorium#Wikisource:Language_domain...
move the *requests* for new Wikisources to the Meta-Wiki, due to the current delay to open any new wikis using a simple vote. I'm dejected to see someone requesting to open a new wiki since the July 2006 and up today voting on it [1], awainting to start to work on a specific wiki.
[1]
Due to past conversations I have had with people involved with incubator, I read the comment about "merging processes" differently than you did. Perhaps I am mistaken, and that is not what was meant in this case.
However there are people who have been clear with me that they think [[:oldwikisource:]] should be completely merged into [[:incubator:]] in the long term. Personally I don't like to see the process of starting new Wikisources taken over, because outside people simply fail to appreciate the reality of wikiSOURCE, where the content already exists in tangible form (with corresponding dialects and orthographies already pre-determined for each edition of a text). Processing requests at meta has led to people being encouraged to start a new wikisource for a variation of a language without ever trying to work in the existing wiki (or even talking to them). [1] The people I have spoken to from incubator also seem unable to see the intrinsic differences between a wikisource and a wikipedia. From what I can see they are planning a one-size fits all process, with no differences in handling based on projects. Despite the fact that there are strong arguments for having one Wikisource where there are several Wikipedias with related languages. If plans have changed, or I am simply mistaken, please correct me.
[1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages/Ancie...
The full page seems to have been lost on meta, so I linked one of my contributioins there
Birgitte SB
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On 4/2/07, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Due to past conversations I have had with people involved with incubator, I read the comment about "merging processes" differently than you did. Perhaps I am mistaken, and that is not what was meant in this case.
However there are people who have been clear with me that they think [[:oldwikisource:]] should be completely merged into [[:incubator:]] in the long term.
With long term you is trying to say "starting at the 2859 year"? If yes, it is fine to me. The world have more than 5,000 languages and the Wikimedia Foundation at this time have 63 Wikipedias, the most google-friendly project, with less than 100 articles [1]. I think that the [[:incubator:]] is a temporary hosting, not a hosting for someone trying to found more people speaking on a specific language that have Internet access, knows something related to free culture, historical texts, OCRing and wiki culture like [[:oldwikisource:]] is for some languages.
Personally I don't like to see the process of
starting new Wikisources taken over, because outside people simply fail to appreciate the reality of wikiSOURCE, where the content already exists in tangible form (with corresponding dialects and orthographies already pre-determined for each edition of a text). Processing requests at meta has led to people being encouraged to start a new wikisource for a variation of a language without ever trying to work in the existing wiki (or even talking to them). [1] The people I have spoken to from incubator also seem unable to see the intrinsic differences between a wikisource and a wikipedia. From what I can see they are planning a one-size fits all process, with no differences in handling based on projects. Despite the fact that there are strong arguments for having one Wikisource where there are several Wikipedias with related languages. If plans have changed, or I am simply mistaken, please correct me.
[1]
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages/Ancie...
The full page seems to have been lost on meta, so I linked one of my contributioins there
My propose is a attempt of a {{merge}} between the current Wikisource Multilingual policy + langcom policy + proposed policies to the Wikisource Multilingual [2].
The problem is the pun "Wikimedia" naming the foundation. The press generally ignores the others projects due to it. Google and Yahoo! sometimes aren't friendly with theirs search results for non-Wikipedia projects, specially for non-English languages. The Wikimedia Foundation tries to do attention to all projects, but sometimes Wikipedia suck all of their energy due to the media coverage to Wikipedia and the lack of media coverage for non-Wikipedia projets. The result: users with only basic knowledge thinks that Wiktionary is a mini-Wikipedia with the same rules and needs, Wikibooks is a Wikipedia for big articles and the Wikisource is the big trashcan for texts that newbies adds to the Wikipedia articles.
Moving the requests to the Meta-Wiki is IMHO the best solution because:
* You don't need to someone remeber the existence of a wiki that may have requests for new languages placed on then, neither to prays to someone check that page/wiki regularly during the small amout of seconds per month that Wikipedia isn't sucking all attention * You can simply vote as against on meta if no one is placing text-units on the correct place (specially if something on [2] may give a chance to move from proposal to policy) * You stop the behaviour "let's go to the [[:oldwikisource:]] only to vote for new languages and to delete old stuff" specially because you can vote as against if no one is adding texts neither in the right place neither in the wrong place, again specially if something on [2].... forcing to that wiki having someone rather than Volapuk and India national languages speakers adding periodically new texts.
[1] - http://s23.org/wikistats/wikipedias_html.php
[2] - http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikisource-l/2007-April/000224.html
Hello,
On 4/2/07, *Birgitte SB* wrote:
Due to past conversations I have had with people involved with incubator, I read the comment about "merging processes" differently than you did. Perhaps I am mistaken, and that is not what was meant in this case. However there are people who have been clear with me that they think [[:oldwikisource:]] should be completely merged into [[:incubator:]] in the long term.
This clearly shows the misunderstanding of what Wikisource is and what [[:oldwikisource:]] is meant for.
Although some Wikipedias will remain small for a long time because of lack of contributors, some Wikisources will never get more than a few dozen or hundreds of pages, simply because the original content in that language doesn't exist. Another example is Sanskrit (a bit more than 1700 pages) which could qualify to have its own subdomain because of the amount of content, but does not because of lack of contributors. Although we could dream to have the whole of Shakespeare and Victor Hugo translated in Sanskrit, the quantity of existing Sanskrit texts will never be more than a few thousand pages. For some other languages, it will ever be much less, so creating and *maintaining* a wiki for only a few pages is quite a waste of work and time. That's why [[:oldwikisource:]] exists and will continue to do so. In that sense, this interwiki name is also badly chosen.
Regards,
Yann
Luiz
Perhaps it is the language barrier, but I am not sure about what you are saying entirely.
I think you are saying that there is a continued need for [[:oldwikisource:]] outside of staring new wikisources. Of course I agree with you in that. But as I said, not everyone agrees with this. I cannot be certain of everyone I talked to about this (it was not recently), but timichal is one person who talked of merging content into incubator and the conversation ended with us agreeing to disagree about the issue. I do not believe he was talking about the year 2859. I am not entirely against the idea of merging the test wiki process, but I am against handing off that process without some seperate conditions for Wikisources. First that related languages should be required to attempt to work together to conserve resources (i.e. in the line of de.WS hosting Low Saxon and en.WS hosting Middle English) before being given a test wiki. Secondly that test wikis which do not "pass" should be imported into [[:oldwikisource:]].
Birgitte SB
--- Luiz Augusto lugusto@gmail.com wrote:
On 4/2/07, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Due to past conversations I have had with people involved with incubator, I read the comment about "merging processes" differently than you did.
Perhaps
I am mistaken, and that is not what was meant in
this
case.
However there are people who have been clear with
me
that they think [[:oldwikisource:]] should be completely merged into [[:incubator:]] in the long term.
With long term you is trying to say "starting at the 2859 year"? If yes, it is fine to me. The world have more than 5,000 languages and the Wikimedia Foundation at this time have 63 Wikipedias, the most google-friendly project, with less than 100 articles [1]. I think that the [[:incubator:]] is a temporary hosting, not a hosting for someone trying to found more people speaking on a specific language that have Internet access, knows something related to free culture, historical texts, OCRing and wiki culture like [[:oldwikisource:]] is for some languages.
Personally I don't like to see the process of
starting new Wikisources taken over, because
outside
people simply fail to appreciate the reality of wikiSOURCE, where the content already exists in tangible form (with corresponding dialects and orthographies already pre-determined for each
edition
of a text). Processing requests at meta has led
to
people being encouraged to start a new wikisource
for
a variation of a language without ever trying to
work
in the existing wiki (or even talking to them).
[1]
The people I have spoken to from incubator also
seem
unable to see the intrinsic differences between a wikisource and a wikipedia. From what I can see
they
are planning a one-size fits all process, with no differences in handling based on projects.
Despite
the fact that there are strong arguments for
having
one Wikisource where there are several Wikipedias
with
related languages. If plans have changed, or I am simply mistaken, please correct me.
[1]
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages/Ancie...
The full page seems to have been lost on meta, so
I
linked one of my contributioins there
My propose is a attempt of a {{merge}} between the current Wikisource Multilingual policy + langcom policy + proposed policies to the Wikisource Multilingual [2].
The problem is the pun "Wikimedia" naming the foundation. The press generally ignores the others projects due to it. Google and Yahoo! sometimes aren't friendly with theirs search results for non-Wikipedia projects, specially for non-English languages. The Wikimedia Foundation tries to do attention to all projects, but sometimes Wikipedia suck all of their energy due to the media coverage to Wikipedia and the lack of media coverage for non-Wikipedia projets. The result: users with only basic knowledge thinks that Wiktionary is a mini-Wikipedia with the same rules and needs, Wikibooks is a Wikipedia for big articles and the Wikisource is the big trashcan for texts that newbies adds to the Wikipedia articles.
Moving the requests to the Meta-Wiki is IMHO the best solution because:
- You don't need to someone remeber the existence of
a wiki that may have requests for new languages placed on then, neither to prays to someone check that page/wiki regularly during the small amout of seconds per month that Wikipedia isn't sucking all attention
- You can simply vote as against on meta if no one
is placing text-units on the correct place (specially if something on [2] may give a chance to move from proposal to policy)
- You stop the behaviour "let's go to the
[[:oldwikisource:]] only to vote for new languages and to delete old stuff" specially because you can vote as against if no one is adding texts neither in the right place neither in the wrong place, again specially if something on [2].... forcing to that wiki having someone rather than Volapuk and India national languages speakers adding periodically new texts.
[1] - http://s23.org/wikistats/wikipedias_html.php
[2] -
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikisource-l/2007-April/000224.html
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Hello BirgitteSB,
This is already the case; the subcommittee's language proposal policy states that "The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language."
Yours cordially, Jesse Martin (Pathoschild)
On 4/3/07, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote: ...
Wikisources. First that related languages should be required to attempt to work together to conserve resources (i.e. in the line of de.WS hosting Low Saxon and en.WS hosting Middle English) before being given a test wiki. Secondly that test wikis which do not "pass" should be imported into [[:oldwikisource:]].
Birgitte SB
No that it not what I mean. Rather thing like Middle English/English or Low Saxon/German. Things that are cureently given their own Wikipedia but are better off combined on Wikisource.
Birgitte SB
--- "Jesse Martin (Pathoschild)" pathoschild@gmail.com wrote:
Hello BirgitteSB,
This is already the case; the subcommittee's language proposal policy states that "The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language."
Yours cordially, Jesse Martin (Pathoschild)
On 4/3/07, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote: ...
Wikisources. First that related languages should
be
required to attempt to work together to conserve resources (i.e. in the line of de.WS hosting Low
Saxon
and en.WS hosting Middle English) before being
given a
test wiki. Secondly that test wikis which do not "pass" should be imported into
[[:oldwikisource:]].
Birgitte SB
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Hello,
Yes, that is still covered by the policy. The policy is not automatic; it is applied with the collective judgment of the subcommittee's member, one of which is a dedicated contributor to a Wikisource project. Thus, there will be consideration for the fact that different dialects or versions of a language can much more easily coexist on a Wikisource than on a Wikipedia. Further, the community can point out any such details during the discussion phase.
Yours cordially, Jesse Martin (Pathoschild)
On 4/4/07, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
No that it not what I mean. Rather thing like Middle English/English or Low Saxon/German. Things that are cureently given their own Wikipedia but are better off combined on Wikisource.
Birgitte SB
I would much prefer to see explicit guidelines pointing to different considerations for different projects. Your participation, while respected, is not overly reassuring to me since you were the staunchest opponent of codifing the inclusion of all anglic languages in policy at en.WS.
Birgittes
--- "Jesse Martin (Pathoschild)" pathoschild@gmail.com wrote:
Hello,
Yes, that is still covered by the policy. The policy is not automatic; it is applied with the collective judgment of the subcommittee's member, one of which is a dedicated contributor to a Wikisource project. Thus, there will be consideration for the fact that different dialects or versions of a language can much more easily coexist on a Wikisource than on a Wikipedia. Further, the community can point out any such details during the discussion phase.
Yours cordially, Jesse Martin (Pathoschild)
On 4/4/07, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
No that it not what I mean. Rather thing like
Middle
English/English or Low Saxon/German. Things that
are
cureently given their own Wikipedia but are better
off
combined on Wikisource.
Birgitte SB
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http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikisource-l
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Hi
On 4/3/07, Birgitte SB birgitte_sb@yahoo.com wrote:
Luiz
Perhaps it is the language barrier, but I am not sure about what you are saying entirely.
I think you are saying that there is a continued need for [[:oldwikisource:]] outside of staring new wikisources. Of course I agree with you in that. But as I said, not everyone agrees with this. I cannot be certain of everyone I talked to about this (it was not recently), but timichal is one person who talked of merging content into incubator and the conversation ended with us agreeing to disagree about the issue. I do not believe he was talking about the year 2859. I am not entirely against the idea of merging the test wiki process, but I am against handing off that process without some seperate conditions for Wikisources. First that related languages should be required to attempt to work together to conserve resources (i.e. in the line of de.WS hosting Low Saxon and en.WS hosting Middle English) before being given a test wiki. Secondly that test wikis which do not "pass" should be imported into [[:oldwikisource:]].
Don't worry, I'm en-1 to read and en-0,5 to write. I understood what you believe. The "With long term you is trying to say "starting at the 2859 year"?" isn't directed to you, but to the people that have said it to you. The "you" is only because *you* that have wrote it on the message :) And the "2859 year" is only a irony.
wikisource-l@lists.wikimedia.org