Forwarding from Wikimedia-l:

---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Isabel Cueva icueva@wikimedia.org

Great News! The Wikimania discount registration 'early bird' price period has been extended to May 31st! Details: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Registration

Also, don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a workshop, or display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for Submissions is NOW OPEN https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:22 AM Isabel Cueva icueva@wikimedia.org wrote:

Attention Everyone (and please spread the word):

Early Bird Registration is now open for Wikimania 2019 on our Eventbrite https://www.eventbrite.com/e/wikimania-2019-registration-60631780287 page.

This discount pricing ends on May 24th so don’t delay!

Online registration will be open from today to July 30th, 2019.

For more information please visit: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Registration

Wikimania 2019 will be held at Stockholm University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_University, Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden, from 14th to 18th August 2019.

The venue will host the majority of the conference, hackathon, meetups, and pre-events.

We would like to encourage all speakers and attendees to register early and book their flight and travel as soon as possible. If you have questions about visas, please visit our wiki visa page https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas.

If you have any questions with regard to the conference, please contact:

wikimania-info@wikimedia.org

Don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a workshop, or display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for Submissions is NOW OPEN https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania

We hope you can join us in Stockholm this summer!

Isabel Cueva, WMF Event Program Manager

on behalf of the Wikimania ‘19 Organizing Team

-- *Isabel Cueva* Event Program Manager Wikimedia Foundation https://wikimediafoundation.org/

If you volunteer for at least 8 hours, the conference pass is free: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Volunteer

/Jan 31 maj 2019 23:32:50 +02:00, skrev Isarra Yos zhorishna@gmail.com:

Are there any plans to add ticket options that are more affordable, especially for volunteers?

Even with Early Bird discount, $270 is... a lot, frankly (and after today, $375). Prior to Montreal two years ago (Cape Town last year was also similarly expensive), the registration cost of Wikimanias for Wikimedia contributors was generally in the 30-50€ range for the whole event - even Esino Lario, where food and full accommodation were included in the default ticket, also had a 'simple' ticket option skipping this that was still in the usual price range. Is there any chance we could bring this practice back? Or... something?

This isn't even just that I can't afford this (which I can't - the registration costs more than the plane ticket would), a lot of us probably aren't going to be able to. Wikimania isn't like most conferences, where attendees are being sent by their companies or organisation; many of us who would consider going are individuals. Not only do we not necessarily have any larger organisations to fund our attendance, we're largely not getting paid for any of this, either - we're donating our time to be a part of this movement, and now we're expected to pay hundreds of dollars, as community members, to attend an event that used to be specifically for the community?

This is especially going to be a major turnoff to any newcomers, as it precludes people just registering and checking it out, seeing what's up, unless they have a lot of money to throw around on things they're not sure about. And based on the conversations I've had with various newcomers over the years who have been drawn into such events (previous wikimanias, hackathons, other conferences) and been highly engaged and inspired by their experiences, this is apt to be a major loss.

I'll also note that while scholarships do resolve this issue for some people, the scholarship budget is limited, and also generally focussed on travel and accommodation costs for folks who would otherwise not be able to get there, not attendance costs for people who can get there just fine but would prefer to spend that 250€ on something else, like a couple of months of groceries. There wasn't a 'just cover the registration fee' option with the scholarship applications at all. Not that... there should be?

Basically, would it be possible to maybe get some more options here?

-I

On 24/05/2019 23:33, Isabel Cueva wrote:

...

Great News! The Wikimania discount registration 'early bird' price period has been extended to May 31st! Details: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Registration

Also, don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a workshop, or display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for Submissions isNOW OPEN https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:22 AM Isabel Cueva <icueva@wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

Attention Everyone (and please spread the word):

Early Bird Registration is now open for Wikimania 2019 on ourEventbrite https://www.eventbrite.com/e/wikimania-2019-registration-60631780287page. This discount pricingends on May 24th so don’t delay!

Online registration will be open from today to July 30th, 2019.

For more information please visit:https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Registration

Wikimania 2019 will be held atStockholm University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_University,Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden, from 14th to 18th August 2019.

The venue will host the majority of the conference, hackathon, meetups, and pre-events.

We would like to encourage all speakers and attendees to register early and book their flight and travel as soon as possible. If you have questions about visas, please visit ourwiki visa page https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas.

If you have any questions with regard to the conference, please contact: wikimania-info@wikimedia.org

Don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a workshop, or display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for Submissions isNOW OPEN https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania

We hope you can join us in Stockholm this summer!

Isabel Cueva, WMF Event Program Manager on behalf of the Wikimania ‘19 Organizing Team --

Isabel Cueva Event Program Manager

Wikimedia Foundation https://wikimediafoundation.org/

--

Isabel Cueva Event Program Manager

Wikimedia Foundation https://wikimediafoundation.org/ _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

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This is not a new or surprising discussion, and thanks for bringing it to the table. While $270 (conference + preconference) is a lot of money, you do get a 5-day conference with lunches, refreshments, reception and probably a dinner or two. That sounds like quite a modest price, compared to most other events of similar length. I suspect that each additional attendee does not bring in any cash, or actually costs the organizers money, overall. I would even argue that for by far most people, the registration cost will not be the limiting factor - other components of the trip would likely be (unless they are local to Stockholm, maybe). The travel to Stockholm alone will outweigh this fee by a factor of 2, maybe 4 for most, and a week of accommodation with the remaining dinners will probably set you back at least the same amount (if you go very low budget).

There are two ways that our movement can try to address this hurdle: one way would be to reduce the price even further for everyone, the other is to provide help for some people to overcome all these financial hurdles. I personally prefer that we spend more on scholarships (travel, accommodation and registration) rather than even further subsidizing the registration fee for all other participants. And we do indeed spend quite an amount and effort on making scholarships available to community members - without any requirement to volunteer at the conference. Given a limited budget, I can imagine that the organizers must make choices.

I'll let the organizers respond themselves what their actual reasoning was, but given what I've seen of past Wikimania's and their budgets, I can't say I share your suggested approach to resolving this tension.

Best, Lodewijk

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 7:42 PM Isarra Yos zhorishna@gmail.com wrote:

I'd really prefer people be volunteering for these things because they want to and they value what they're doing, not because they have to in order to do something else. It's good that those who do care to volunteer here don't need to pay the high fee on top of that, but it doesn't resolve the issue of such a high fee being there in the first place.

-I On 31/05/2019 21:41, Jan Ainali wrote:

If you volunteer for at least 8 hours, the conference pass is free: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Volunteer

/Jan

31 maj 2019 23:32:50 +02:00, skrev Isarra Yos zhorishna@gmail.com zhorishna@gmail.com:

Are there any plans to add ticket options that are more affordable, especially for volunteers?

Even with Early Bird discount, $270 is... a lot, frankly (and after today, $375). Prior to Montreal two years ago (Cape Town last year was also similarly expensive), the registration cost of Wikimanias for Wikimedia contributors was generally in the 30-50€ range for the whole event - even Esino Lario, where food and full accommodation were included in the default ticket, also had a 'simple' ticket option skipping this that was still in the usual price range. Is there any chance we could bring this practice back? Or... something?

This isn't even just that I can't afford this (which I can't - the registration costs more than the plane ticket would), *a lot of us* probably aren't going to be able to. Wikimania isn't like most conferences, where attendees are being sent by their companies or organisation; many of us who would consider going are individuals. Not only do we not necessarily have any larger organisations to fund our attendance, we're largely not getting paid for any of this, either - we're donating our time to be a part of this movement, and now we're expected to pay hundreds of dollars, as community members, to attend an event that used to be specifically for the community?

This is especially going to be a major turnoff to any newcomers, as it precludes people just registering and checking it out, seeing what's up, unless they have a lot of money to throw around on things they're not sure about. And based on the conversations I've had with various newcomers over the years who have been drawn into such events (previous wikimanias, hackathons, other conferences) and been highly engaged and inspired by their experiences, this is apt to be a major loss.

I'll also note that while scholarships do resolve this issue for some people, the scholarship budget is limited, and also generally focussed on travel and accommodation costs for folks who would otherwise not be able to get there, not attendance costs for people who can get there just fine but would prefer to spend that 250€ on something else, like a couple of months of groceries. There wasn't a 'just cover the registration fee' option with the scholarship applications at all. Not that... there should be?

Basically, would it be possible to maybe get some more options here?

-I

On 24/05/2019 23:33, Isabel Cueva wrote:

Great News! The Wikimania discount registration 'early bird' price period has been extended to May 31st! Details: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Registration

Also, don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a workshop, or display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for Submissions is NOW OPEN https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:22 AM Isabel Cueva icueva@wikimedia.org wrote:

Attention Everyone (and please spread the word):

Early Bird Registration is now open for Wikimania 2019 on our Eventbrite https://www.eventbrite.com/e/wikimania-2019-registration-60631780287 page.

This discount pricing ends on May 24th so don’t delay!

Online registration will be open from today to July 30th, 2019.

For more information please visit: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Registration

Wikimania 2019 will be held at Stockholm University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_University, Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden, from 14th to 18th August 2019.

The venue will host the majority of the conference, hackathon, meetups, and pre-events.

We would like to encourage all speakers and attendees to register early and book their flight and travel as soon as possible. If you have questions about visas, please visit our wiki visa page https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas.

If you have any questions with regard to the conference, please contact:

wikimania-info@wikimedia.org

Don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a workshop, or display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for Submissions is NOW OPEN https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania

We hope you can join us in Stockholm this summer!

Isabel Cueva, WMF Event Program Manager

on behalf of the Wikimania ‘19 Organizing Team

--

*Isabel Cueva* Event Program Manager Wikimedia Foundation https://wikimediafoundation.org/

--

*Isabel Cueva* Event Program Manager Wikimedia Foundation https://wikimediafoundation.org/

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On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 5:20 AM Tisza Gergő gtisza@gmail.com wrote:

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 1:12 PM effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:

...

I would even argue that for by far most people, the registration cost will not be the limiting factor - other components of the trip would likely be (unless they are local to Stockholm, maybe). The travel to Stockholm alone will outweigh this fee by a factor of 2, maybe 4 for most, and a week of accommodation with the remaining dinners will probably set you back at least the same amount (if you go very low budget).

Those estimates are way off. Most of our volunteer base is in Europe, where flight costs are typically below $100; you can find accomodation in the immediate vicinity of the conference for $200 (and you can probably go way cheaper with hostels, or by being in a more distant part of the city); if you actually want to go very low budget and skip on restaurants / pubs / etc, food costs are minimal (and obviously people do need to eat outside of Stockholm as well, so it's not really an extra spending). So the conference fee would be about half of your total costs.

That depends what you're using as your base, of course. I'm trying to think a little beyond our traditional community, which is why I was talking about 'people'. Even if we would take a highly Eurocentric approach and only think about Europeans without any visa requirements, living nearby airports that are well-connected to Stockholm (mind you, these are quite a few assumptions we're making), we would be talking about airfare of often more than $100, accommodation for $200 would still be on the low end of the spectrum (six nights, hostels cost $31 per night, although there are a few further away that cost less), you would still have to include all kinds of smaller expenses though (dinners that will definitely more expensive than at home. Are you planning to take public transportation or walk for a few hours each day? Will you join in evening events and buy a drink? Do you plan to get a data plan for your phone?) And let's not forget that you have to take a week off to be able to attend the conference and pre-conference. All in all, I am pretty confident that even for these well-connected Europeans, the conference fee will be a smaller part of the amount that traveling will cost them. Finding a cheaper hotel than the recommended hotel (at $115/night) would definitely do a good job at that.

...

There are two ways that our movement can try to address this hurdle: one way would be to reduce the price even further for everyone, the other is to provide help for some people to overcome all these financial hurdles. I personally prefer that we spend more on scholarships (travel, accommodation and registration) rather than even further subsidizing the registration fee for all other participants.

So are we actually spending more on scholarships? There is no consistent reporting on scholarships (nor any other aspect of Wikimania for that matter) but some wiki archeology gives:

• 2012: 87 full + 47 partial per [1]
• 2013: 62 full + 18 partial (which apparently somehow adds up to 86...)

per [2]

• 2014: 109 per [3]
• 2015: 110 per [4]
• 2016: 88 full + 35 partial + 6 additional (whatever that means) per [5]

([6] claims 99 full)

• 2017: 81 full + 17 partial per [5]
• 2018: 125 full + 16 partial per [5]
• 2019: 96 full + 20 partial per [5]

So it seems like the higher price of the conference was indeed offset somewhat by a slightly higher number of scholarships in 2018, but that is not the case for 2019. (Granted this is WMF only, and a significant part of scholarships tend to come from affiliates, but it's even harder to find data on that.)

(I should probably disclose that I'm a partial scholarship recipient, although I doubt it would affect my argument if I weren't) This focus on scholarships is not a new thing - I'm happy that the WMF has chosen to support them for a long time now. And indeed there is a significant bump from mostly European chapters that help volunteers to attend (a big chunk of them being from their own country).

You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't think this is actually true. Some context: - 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board - 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD) - 2018: 275 USD

In that sense, this fee is quite in range from the past few years (I was not motivated enough to go back to earlier years). Some years were indeed cheaper, especially if located in a country with lower incomes, and when the express purpose was to get more locals/regionals to attend (Mexico, Hong Kong) that might otherwise not have been able to.

My point is: if we're not willing to spend even more donor money on this conference than we already do, we need to make choices. You could choose to make the conference less fancy (although the opportunities to cut costs are limited in that field, I understand), you could stop offering lunch and refreshments or you could cut in scholarships (which is a huge chunk of our budget as a movement regarding this conference). I wouldn't mind making the event 'less fancy' if that would actually bring down the cost significantly, although all attempts at that in the past were met with complaints too. But I don't think it is feasible to cut on things that make up the main budget items. Unfortunately, I'm currently unable to find reliable and publicly available budgets for Wikimania from recent years, so I have to work from recollection.

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2012 [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2013 [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars/2014 [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars/2015 [5] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars#2019_WMF_Wikimania... [6] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2016

On 01/06/2019 19:44, effe iets anders wrote:

You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't think this is actually true. Some context:

• 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board
• 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD)
• 2018: 275 USD

2016 is indeed when it first went up, but even then the 500€ value was fairly consistent with how much one could expect the whole thing to cost when including fairly decent food and accommodation. What was concerning was that then the cost stayed relatively high, without any of the included stuff - if the 250€ is only the registration price, there's not much to decouple. For instance, is there any food to not include? Lunch being included has pretty much always been standard, for good reason, and we're not doing breakfast and dinner for everyone in the first place, are we? (As I recall, 2015 did include dinner, though, which may indicate part of why it was also more expensive.) And even in terms of fanciness, I'm not sure how much value that has, or if they even have been meaningfully more so than they used to be. Comparing to the Wikiconference USA/NA events I attended some of the same years (I don't think any were over $50, definitely not more than $100), the Wikimanias were mostly just... bigger. Higher volume.

For reference, prior wikimanias cost the following for Wikimedians:

2015: $95 2014: £50.00 2013: $45 2012: $35 2011: $45 2010: 30-40€ 2009: $45 2008: $45 2007: $40-60 2006: $90 2005 I can't find, but it was the first and thus organised a bit differently

So what happened? How is 250€ now not a lot of money? The first Wikimania I attended was in 2012 and my entire budget was $500, which was basically my holiday budget for the year. I was a student from a poor background, and a lot of our contributors are students. Quite a few of our contributors aren't exactly upper class, or from countries with great conversion rates. Should we really be requiring them to get special support now to even register for the main event for what is supposed to be a world-wide, inclusive movement?

250€ is a quite a lot of money. Other things to attend may still cost around the same or more, but if we also need to spend it on those things, we're not going to have that money left to spend on the registration as well.

-I

https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration https://www.eventbrite.com/e/wikimania-2014-registration-11063436035 https://wikimania2010.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration https://wikimania2009.wikimedia.org/wiki/Registration (and the same page on other years) https://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Registration&oldid...

As has in previous years been suggested if we want Wikimania to be truly inclusive and encourage more people to attend then the WMF should just extend the fundraising by a week and use that to subsidise the event making it more accessible to everyone. 1,000 particiants at 250€ is just an extra 250,000€ to collect, collecting enough to allow 200 scholarships would enable greater participation from more communities.

On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 at 03:16, Mykola Kozlenko mycola-k@ukr.net wrote:

In 2015, 2017 and 2018 we had Wikimanias in really upscale hotels. I can perfectly understand why renting conference rooms and arranging catering for all participants in a Sheraton or a Hilton is expensive. For instance, Montréal experience in 2017 was pretty much worse 233 USD indeed given that we were in a centrally-located Sheraton.

This year we are having a Wikimania on a university campus. Yes, Stockholm is an expensive city, but Montréal is not really cheap either. I can't really understand how a university campus in Stockholm is more than 50% more expensive than a Sheraton in Montréal.

I don't say I want these costs unbundled, I am happy to pay for the full experience, but with a price tag that high I would really like to know where all this money will go.

Best regards, Mykola (NickK)

--- Оригінальне повідомлення --- Від кого: "Isarra Yos" zhorishna@gmail.com Дата: 2 червня 2019, 18:19:17

On 01/06/2019 19:44, effe iets anders wrote:

...

You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't think this is actually true. Some context:

• 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board
• 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD)
• 2018: 275 USD

2016 is indeed when it first went up, but even then the 500€ value was fairly consistent with how much one could expect the whole thing to cost when including fairly decent food and accommodation. What was concerning was that then the cost stayed relatively high, without any of the included stuff - if the 250€ is only the registration price, there's not much to decouple. For instance, is there any food to not include? Lunch being included has pretty much always been standard, for good reason, and we're not doing breakfast and dinner for everyone in the first place, are we? (As I recall, 2015 did include dinner, though, which may indicate part of why it was also more expensive.) And even in terms of fanciness, I'm not sure how much value that has, or if they even have been meaningfully more so than they used to be. Comparing to the Wikiconference USA/NA events I attended some of the same years (I don't think any were over $50, definitely not more than $100), the Wikimanias were mostly just... bigger. Higher volume.

For reference, prior wikimanias cost the following for Wikimedians: 2015: $952014: £50.002013: $452012: $352011: $452010: 30-40€2009: $452008: $452007: $40-602006: $902005 I can't find, but it was the first and thus organised a bit differently

So what happened? How is 250€ now not a lot of money? The first Wikimania I attended was in 2012 and my entire budget was $500, which was basically my holiday budget for the year. I was a student from a poor background, and a lot of our contributors are students. Quite a few of our contributors aren't exactly upper class, or from countries with great conversion rates. Should we really be requiring them to get special support now to even register for the main event for what is supposed to be a world-wide, inclusive movement?

250€ is a quite a lot of money. Other things to attend may still cost around the same or more, but if we also need to spend it on those things, we're not going to have that money left to spend on the registration as well.

-I

https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registrationhttps://www.eventb... (and the same page on other years)https://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Registration&oldid...

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Sorry, in the first sentence it should read "wikimania" , not "Wikimedia"

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 11:19, Paulo Santos Perneta < paulosperneta@gmail.com> escreveu:

For us in Portugal joining wikimedia, even in a relatively close city like Stockholm, without a scholarship stands at a minimum cost of 1000€, which really is a prohibitive cost for the great majority of people here, corresponding to way more than a regular full month wage (two minimum wages, actually).

25% of that cost corresponding to fees that even wikimedia volunteers have to pay does seem quite obscene to me.

If a significant amount of the cost is going to fancy luxury hotels and parties - those last ones barred to wikimedians below 18 years, in this years event - this really should be something to be reviewed. Also, I agree that it is quite difficult to understand such an high fee in this year wikimania, where most of the stuff seems to be organized on campus.

Paulo

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 00:32, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com escreveu:

...

As has in previous years been suggested if we want Wikimania to be truly inclusive and encourage more people to attend then the WMF should just extend the fundraising by a week and use that to subsidise the event making it more accessible to everyone. 1,000 particiants at 250€ is just an extra 250,000€ to collect, collecting enough to allow 200 scholarships would enable greater participation from more communities.

On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 at 03:16, Mykola Kozlenko mycola-k@ukr.net wrote:

...

In 2015, 2017 and 2018 we had Wikimanias in really upscale hotels. I can perfectly understand why renting conference rooms and arranging catering for all participants in a Sheraton or a Hilton is expensive. For instance, Montréal experience in 2017 was pretty much worse 233 USD indeed given that we were in a centrally-located Sheraton.

This year we are having a Wikimania on a university campus. Yes, Stockholm is an expensive city, but Montréal is not really cheap either. I can't really understand how a university campus in Stockholm is more than 50% more expensive than a Sheraton in Montréal.

I don't say I want these costs unbundled, I am happy to pay for the full experience, but with a price tag that high I would really like to know where all this money will go.

Best regards, Mykola (NickK)

--- Оригінальне повідомлення --- Від кого: "Isarra Yos" zhorishna@gmail.com Дата: 2 червня 2019, 18:19:17

On 01/06/2019 19:44, effe iets anders wrote:

...

You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't think this is actually true. Some context:

• 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board
• 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD)
• 2018: 275 USD

2016 is indeed when it first went up, but even then the 500€ value was fairly consistent with how much one could expect the whole thing to cost when including fairly decent food and accommodation. What was concerning was that then the cost stayed relatively high, without any of the included stuff - if the 250€ is only the registration price, there's not much to decouple. For instance, is there any food to not include? Lunch being included has pretty much always been standard, for good reason, and we're not doing breakfast and dinner for everyone in the first place, are we? (As I recall, 2015 did include dinner, though, which may indicate part of why it was also more expensive.) And even in terms of fanciness, I'm not sure how much value that has, or if they even have been meaningfully more so than they used to be. Comparing to the Wikiconference USA/NA events I attended some of the same years (I don't think any were over $50, definitely not more than $100), the Wikimanias were mostly just... bigger. Higher volume.

For reference, prior wikimanias cost the following for Wikimedians: 2015: $952014: £50.002013: $452012: $352011: $452010: 30-40€2009: $452008: $452007: $40-602006: $902005 I can't find, but it was the first and thus organised a bit differently

So what happened? How is 250€ now not a lot of money? The first Wikimania I attended was in 2012 and my entire budget was $500, which was basically my holiday budget for the year. I was a student from a poor background, and a lot of our contributors are students. Quite a few of our contributors aren't exactly upper class, or from countries with great conversion rates. Should we really be requiring them to get special support now to even register for the main event for what is supposed to be a world-wide, inclusive movement?

250€ is a quite a lot of money. Other things to attend may still cost around the same or more, but if we also need to spend it on those things, we're not going to have that money left to spend on the registration as well.

-I

https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registrationhttps://www.eventb... (and the same page on other years)https://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Registration&oldid...

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We are talking about a very dramatic increase in the fee in the last few years, not about universities doing events for free. And it is quite hard to understand how come an event on campus as a fee similar to the ones organized at a five star hotels.

Paulo

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 22:55, Kerry Raymond kerry.raymond@gmail.com escreveu:

Well, as someone who has worked at a number of universities and organised events at others, I am well aware that many universities are short of cash and expect to be paid by others to use their facilities so I would not assume that being “on campus” is a free or low-cost venue for Wikimania. A university *may *decide that an event is sufficiently in-line with their own goals that they may reduce/waive the cost, but holding events at a university does incur real additional costs to the university, such as cleaning and security at a minimum, so it is not unfair to charge for their use.

Kerry

*From:* Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Paulo Santos Perneta *Sent:* Monday, 3 June 2019 8:21 PM *To:* Wikimania general list (open subscription) < wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org> *Subject:* Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

Sorry, in the first sentence it should read "wikimania" , not "Wikimedia"

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 11:19, Paulo Santos Perneta < paulosperneta@gmail.com> escreveu:

For us in Portugal joining wikimedia, even in a relatively close city like Stockholm, without a scholarship stands at a minimum cost of 1000€, which really is a prohibitive cost for the great majority of people here, corresponding to way more than a regular full month wage (two minimum wages, actually).

25% of that cost corresponding to fees that even wikimedia volunteers have to pay does seem quite obscene to me.

If a significant amount of the cost is going to fancy luxury hotels and parties - those last ones barred to wikimedians below 18 years, in this years event - this really should be something to be reviewed. Also, I agree that it is quite difficult to understand such an high fee in this year wikimania, where most of the stuff seems to be organized on campus.

Paulo

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 00:32, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com escreveu:

As has in previous years been suggested if we want Wikimania to be truly inclusive and encourage more people to attend then the WMF should just extend the fundraising by a week and use that to subsidise the event making it more accessible to everyone. 1,000 particiants at 250€ is just an extra 250,000€ to collect, collecting enough to allow 200 scholarships would enable greater participation from more communities.

On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 at 03:16, Mykola Kozlenko mycola-k@ukr.net wrote:

In 2015, 2017 and 2018 we had Wikimanias in really upscale hotels. I can perfectly understand why renting conference rooms and arranging catering for all participants in a Sheraton or a Hilton is expensive. For instance, Montréal experience in 2017 was pretty much worse 233 USD indeed given that we were in a centrally-located Sheraton.

This year we are having a Wikimania on a university campus. Yes, Stockholm is an expensive city, but Montréal is not really cheap either. I can't really understand how a university campus in Stockholm is more than 50% more expensive than a Sheraton in Montréal.

I don't say I want these costs unbundled, I am happy to pay for the full experience, but with a price tag that high I would really like to know where all this money will go.

Best regards,

Mykola (NickK)

*--- Оригінальне повідомлення ---Від кого: "Isarra Yos" <zhorishna@gmail.com zhorishna@gmail.com>Дата: 2 червня 2019, 18:19:17*

On 01/06/2019 19:44, effe iets anders wrote:

...

You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't

...

think this is actually true. Some context:

...

• 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board

...

• 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD)

...

• 2018: 275 USD

2016 is indeed when it first went up, but even then the 500€ value was

fairly consistent with how much one could expect the whole thing to cost

when including fairly decent food and accommodation. What was concerning

was that then the cost stayed relatively high, without any of the

included stuff - if the 250€ is only the registration price, there's not

much to decouple. For instance, is there any food to not include? Lunch

being included has pretty much always been standard, for good reason,

and we're not doing breakfast and dinner for everyone in the first

place, are we? (As I recall, 2015 did include dinner, though, which may

indicate part of why it was also more expensive.) And even in terms of

fanciness, I'm not sure how much value that has, or if they even have

been meaningfully more so than they used to be. Comparing to the

Wikiconference USA/NA events I attended some of the same years (I don't

think any were over $50, definitely not more than $100), the Wikimanias

were mostly just... bigger. Higher volume.

For reference, prior wikimanias cost the following for Wikimedians:

2015: $95

2014: £50.00

2013: $45

2012: $35

2011: $45

2010: 30-40€

2009: $45

2008: $45

2007: $40-60

2006: $90

2005 I can't find, but it was the first and thus organised a bit differently

So what happened? How is 250€ now not a lot of money? The first

Wikimania I attended was in 2012 and my entire budget was $500, which

was basically my holiday budget for the year. I was a student from a

poor background, and a lot of our contributors are students. Quite a few

of our contributors aren't exactly upper class, or from countries with

great conversion rates. Should we really be requiring them to get

special support now to even register for the main event for what is

supposed to be a world-wide, inclusive movement?

250€ is a quite a lot of money. Other things to attend may still cost

around the same or more, but if we also need to spend it on those

things, we're not going to have that money left to spend on the

registration as well.

-I

https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/wikimania-2014-registration-11063436035

https://wikimania2010.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration

https://wikimania2009.wikimedia.org/wiki/Registration (and the same page

on other years)

https://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Registration&oldid...

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Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

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Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order here https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8 .

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I've been extremely lucky over the years to have attended several Wikimanias. I live in Canada (so almost never needed a visa) and had the financial flexibility to do so. I've paid my own way to some, been subsidized for others with clear expectations that I would carry out certain activities in exchange, and received one partial scholarship (which was supposed to be enough for my airfare - if I had booked it seven months in advance...). Even when I've been subsidized, I've had out-of-pocket expenses that I did not receive reimbursement for until months later (if at all), but I am blessed not to have to worry about whether there will be food on the table or a roof over my head. We in the Western world are used to having paid vacation time - often multiple weeks per year - and that is another barrier for people in other countries with different cultures and economies. And many people from Europe and North America don't need to go through the expense and challenge of obtaining visas to most of the Wikimania or other conference locations.

But hundreds - no, thousands - of dedicated contributors aren't in my/our position. Even if they are lucky enough to get a full scholarship, they can't afford the time off work, or get the visa, or cover the upfront costs of the travel experience that may or may not be reimbursed. They tend to be in locations far from wherever Wikimania may be, so paying out of their own pocket is much more expensive than if they were living in Europe or North America. Their voices are the ones we miss the most at our conferences and Wikimanias - and their absence makes it that much more challenging to help grow new communities.

There will be people who won't be at Wikimania this year because for non-Europeans it is very expensive to get to and stay in Sweden. If my trip this year was not being subsidized (and I have written responsibilities in exchange for that subsidy), I would not be going to Wikimania this year; even a "rich Westerner" finds it too costly.

I don't think that the baseline conference fee is out of line with what real expenses will be for Wikimania. It's an expensive place and, even if the university is substantially cutting its fees for food and room rentals, it's still going to cost an awful lot of money. In an ideal world, everyone who wanted to attend would be subsidized, but I'm realistic enough to know that if we as a movement were to do that, the conference would be even more heavily weighted with voices from Europe and North America.

Risker/Anne

On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 at 00:29, Wilfredo Rodríguez wilfredor@gmail.com wrote:

There must be a coherent explanation. It is possible that there is an alliance that we can not see between WMF and the university so that WMF receives the surplus in donations that will be cleanly used.

On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 22:01 Paulo Santos Perneta, paulosperneta@gmail.com wrote:

...

We are talking about a very dramatic increase in the fee in the last few years, not about universities doing events for free. And it is quite hard to understand how come an event on campus as a fee similar to the ones organized at a five star hotels.

Paulo

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 22:55, Kerry Raymond < kerry.raymond@gmail.com> escreveu:

...

Well, as someone who has worked at a number of universities and organised events at others, I am well aware that many universities are short of cash and expect to be paid by others to use their facilities so I would not assume that being “on campus” is a free or low-cost venue for Wikimania. A university *may *decide that an event is sufficiently in-line with their own goals that they may reduce/waive the cost, but holding events at a university does incur real additional costs to the university, such as cleaning and security at a minimum, so it is not unfair to charge for their use.

Kerry

*From:* Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Paulo Santos Perneta *Sent:* Monday, 3 June 2019 8:21 PM *To:* Wikimania general list (open subscription) < wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org> *Subject:* Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

Sorry, in the first sentence it should read "wikimania" , not "Wikimedia"

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 11:19, Paulo Santos Perneta < paulosperneta@gmail.com> escreveu:

For us in Portugal joining wikimedia, even in a relatively close city like Stockholm, without a scholarship stands at a minimum cost of 1000€, which really is a prohibitive cost for the great majority of people here, corresponding to way more than a regular full month wage (two minimum wages, actually).

25% of that cost corresponding to fees that even wikimedia volunteers have to pay does seem quite obscene to me.

If a significant amount of the cost is going to fancy luxury hotels and parties - those last ones barred to wikimedians below 18 years, in this years event - this really should be something to be reviewed. Also, I agree that it is quite difficult to understand such an high fee in this year wikimania, where most of the stuff seems to be organized on campus.

Paulo

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 00:32, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com escreveu:

As has in previous years been suggested if we want Wikimania to be truly inclusive and encourage more people to attend then the WMF should just extend the fundraising by a week and use that to subsidise the event making it more accessible to everyone. 1,000 particiants at 250€ is just an extra 250,000€ to collect, collecting enough to allow 200 scholarships would enable greater participation from more communities.

On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 at 03:16, Mykola Kozlenko mycola-k@ukr.net wrote:

In 2015, 2017 and 2018 we had Wikimanias in really upscale hotels. I can perfectly understand why renting conference rooms and arranging catering for all participants in a Sheraton or a Hilton is expensive. For instance, Montréal experience in 2017 was pretty much worse 233 USD indeed given that we were in a centrally-located Sheraton.

This year we are having a Wikimania on a university campus. Yes, Stockholm is an expensive city, but Montréal is not really cheap either. I can't really understand how a university campus in Stockholm is more than 50% more expensive than a Sheraton in Montréal.

I don't say I want these costs unbundled, I am happy to pay for the full experience, but with a price tag that high I would really like to know where all this money will go.

Best regards,

Mykola (NickK)

*--- Оригінальне повідомлення ---Від кого: "Isarra Yos" <zhorishna@gmail.com zhorishna@gmail.com>Дата: 2 червня 2019, 18:19:17*

On 01/06/2019 19:44, effe iets anders wrote:

...

You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't

...

think this is actually true. Some context:

...

• 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board

...

• 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD)

...

• 2018: 275 USD

2016 is indeed when it first went up, but even then the 500€ value was

fairly consistent with how much one could expect the whole thing to cost

when including fairly decent food and accommodation. What was concerning

was that then the cost stayed relatively high, without any of the

included stuff - if the 250€ is only the registration price, there's not

much to decouple. For instance, is there any food to not include? Lunch

being included has pretty much always been standard, for good reason,

and we're not doing breakfast and dinner for everyone in the first

place, are we? (As I recall, 2015 did include dinner, though, which may

indicate part of why it was also more expensive.) And even in terms of

fanciness, I'm not sure how much value that has, or if they even have

been meaningfully more so than they used to be. Comparing to the

Wikiconference USA/NA events I attended some of the same years (I don't

think any were over $50, definitely not more than $100), the Wikimanias

were mostly just... bigger. Higher volume.

For reference, prior wikimanias cost the following for Wikimedians:

2015: $95

2014: £50.00

2013: $45

2012: $35

2011: $45

2010: 30-40€

2009: $45

2008: $45

2007: $40-60

2006: $90

2005 I can't find, but it was the first and thus organised a bit differently

So what happened? How is 250€ now not a lot of money? The first

Wikimania I attended was in 2012 and my entire budget was $500, which

was basically my holiday budget for the year. I was a student from a

poor background, and a lot of our contributors are students. Quite a few

of our contributors aren't exactly upper class, or from countries with

great conversion rates. Should we really be requiring them to get

special support now to even register for the main event for what is

supposed to be a world-wide, inclusive movement?

250€ is a quite a lot of money. Other things to attend may still cost

around the same or more, but if we also need to spend it on those

things, we're not going to have that money left to spend on the

registration as well.

-I

https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/wikimania-2014-registration-11063436035

https://wikimania2010.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration

https://wikimania2009.wikimedia.org/wiki/Registration (and the same page

on other years)

https://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Registration&oldid...

---

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Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org

https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

---

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--

GN. Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com

Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order here https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8 .

---

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---

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I am in a similar position. I went to one Wikimania – it was in my home city, so I commuted in each day. I am unlikely to be able to attend another. The money would be better spent on other things that are more necessary. This is probably pretty average. It was worth attending that time because it was affordable. For most Wikimedians it is not worth attending because it is not affordable, and we prefer being able to eat regularly and sleep under a roof.

Cheers,

Peter

From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of CS Sent: 09 June 2019 11:11 To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

My position is the same as that of One/Risker, except that I am a retiree on a small budget.

I have self-financed all but one of my Wikipedia trips, but roughly $3,000 for a trip to Sweden for me is totally out of the question.

While I realize that opportunities need to be extended to new and curious users, some of us have worked very hard for Wikipedia over the years, (and been on the scholarships committee), and for the kind of work we do, meeting our colleagues and the WMF staff face-to-face is indispensable.

Not being able to attend does not encourage further dedication to Wikipedia.

The scholarships committee should take into account the personal financial effort made by attendees of several conferences.

In my opinion, as not all users come from wealthy countries such as North America or Europe, Wikimania should be held in more easily accessible and lower cost venues.

Kudpung

On 4 Jun 2019, at 13:10, Risker risker.wp@gmail.com wrote:

I've been extremely lucky over the years to have attended several Wikimanias. I live in Canada (so almost never needed a visa) and had the financial flexibility to do so. I've paid my own way to some, been subsidized for others with clear expectations that I would carry out certain activities in exchange, and received one partial scholarship (which was supposed to be enough for my airfare - if I had booked it seven months in advance...). Even when I've been subsidized, I've had out-of-pocket expenses that I did not receive reimbursement for until months later (if at all), but I am blessed not to have to worry about whether there will be food on the table or a roof over my head. We in the Western world are used to having paid vacation time - often multiple weeks per year - and that is another barrier for people in other countries with different cultures and economies. And many people from Europe and North America don't need to go through the expense and challenge of obtaining visas to most of the Wikimania or other conference locations.

But hundreds - no, thousands - of dedicated contributors aren't in my/our position. Even if they are lucky enough to get a full scholarship, they can't afford the time off work, or get the visa, or cover the upfront costs of the travel experience that may or may not be reimbursed. They tend to be in locations far from wherever Wikimania may be, so paying out of their own pocket is much more expensive than if they were living in Europe or North America. Their voices are the ones we miss the most at our conferences and Wikimanias - and their absence makes it that much more challenging to help grow new communities.

There will be people who won't be at Wikimania this year because for non-Europeans it is very expensive to get to and stay in Sweden. If my trip this year was not being subsidized (and I have written responsibilities in exchange for that subsidy), I would not be going to Wikimania this year; even a "rich Westerner" finds it too costly.

I don't think that the baseline conference fee is out of line with what real expenses will be for Wikimania. It's an expensive place and, even if the university is substantially cutting its fees for food and room rentals, it's still going to cost an awful lot of money. In an ideal world, everyone who wanted to attend would be subsidized, but I'm realistic enough to know that if we as a movement were to do that, the conference would be even more heavily weighted with voices from Europe and North America.

Risker/Anne

On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 at 00:29, Wilfredo Rodríguez wilfredor@gmail.com wrote:

There must be a coherent explanation. It is possible that there is an alliance that we can not see between WMF and the university so that WMF receives the surplus in donations that will be cleanly used.

On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 22:01 Paulo Santos Perneta, paulosperneta@gmail.com wrote:

We are talking about a very dramatic increase in the fee in the last few years, not about universities doing events for free. And it is quite hard to understand how come an event on campus as a fee similar to the ones organized at a five star hotels.

Paulo

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 22:55, Kerry Raymond kerry.raymond@gmail.com escreveu:

Well, as someone who has worked at a number of universities and organised events at others, I am well aware that many universities are short of cash and expect to be paid by others to use their facilities so I would not assume that being “on campus” is a free or low-cost venue for Wikimania. A university *may *decide that an event is sufficiently in-line with their own goals that they may reduce/waive the cost, but holding events at a university does incur real additional costs to the university, such as cleaning and security at a minimum, so it is not unfair to charge for their use.

Kerry

From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Monday, 3 June 2019 8:21 PM To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

Sorry, in the first sentence it should read "wikimania" , not "Wikimedia"

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 11:19, Paulo Santos Perneta paulosperneta@gmail.com escreveu:

For us in Portugal joining wikimedia, even in a relatively close city like Stockholm, without a scholarship stands at a minimum cost of 1000€, which really is a prohibitive cost for the great majority of people here, corresponding to way more than a regular full month wage (two minimum wages, actually).

25% of that cost corresponding to fees that even wikimedia volunteers have to pay does seem quite obscene to me.

If a significant amount of the cost is going to fancy luxury hotels and parties - those last ones barred to wikimedians below 18 years, in this years event - this really should be something to be reviewed. Also, I agree that it is quite difficult to understand such an high fee in this year wikimania, where most of the stuff seems to be organized on campus.

Paulo

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 00:32, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com escreveu:

As has in previous years been suggested if we want Wikimania to be truly inclusive and encourage more people to attend then the WMF should just extend the fundraising by a week and use that to subsidise the event making it more accessible to everyone. 1,000 particiants at 250€ is just an extra 250,000€ to collect, collecting enough to allow 200 scholarships would enable greater participation from more communities.

On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 at 03:16, Mykola Kozlenko mycola-k@ukr.net wrote:

In 2015, 2017 and 2018 we had Wikimanias in really upscale hotels. I can perfectly understand why renting conference rooms and arranging catering for all participants in a Sheraton or a Hilton is expensive. For instance, Montréal experience in 2017 was pretty much worse 233 USD indeed given that we were in a centrally-located Sheraton.

This year we are having a Wikimania on a university campus. Yes, Stockholm is an expensive city, but Montréal is not really cheap either. I can't really understand how a university campus in Stockholm is more than 50% more expensive than a Sheraton in Montréal.

I don't say I want these costs unbundled, I am happy to pay for the full experience, but with a price tag that high I would really like to know where all this money will go.

Best regards,

Mykola (NickK)

--- Оригінальне повідомлення --- Від кого: "Isarra Yos" zhorishna@gmail.com Дата: 2 червня 2019, 18:19:17

On 01/06/2019 19:44, effe iets anders wrote:

You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't think this is actually true. Some context:

• 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board
• 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD)
• 2018: 275 USD

2016 is indeed when it first went up, but even then the 500€ value was fairly consistent with how much one could expect the whole thing to cost when including fairly decent food and accommodation. What was concerning was that then the cost stayed relatively high, without any of the included stuff - if the 250€ is only the registration price, there's not much to decouple. For instance, is there any food to not include? Lunch being included has pretty much always been standard, for good reason, and we're not doing breakfast and dinner for everyone in the first place, are we? (As I recall, 2015 did include dinner, though, which may indicate part of why it was also more expensive.) And even in terms of fanciness, I'm not sure how much value that has, or if they even have been meaningfully more so than they used to be. Comparing to the Wikiconference USA/NA events I attended some of the same years (I don't think any were over $50, definitely not more than $100), the Wikimanias were mostly just... bigger. Higher volume.

For reference, prior wikimanias cost the following for Wikimedians:

2015: $95 2014: £50.00 2013: $45 2012: $35 2011: $45 2010: 30-40€ 2009: $45 2008: $45 2007: $40-60 2006: $90 2005 I can't find, but it was the first and thus organised a bit differently

So what happened? How is 250€ now not a lot of money? The first Wikimania I attended was in 2012 and my entire budget was $500, which was basically my holiday budget for the year. I was a student from a poor background, and a lot of our contributors are students. Quite a few of our contributors aren't exactly upper class, or from countries with great conversion rates. Should we really be requiring them to get special support now to even register for the main event for what is supposed to be a world-wide, inclusive movement?

250€ is a quite a lot of money. Other things to attend may still cost around the same or more, but if we also need to spend it on those things, we're not going to have that money left to spend on the registration as well.

-I

https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration https://www.eventbrite.com/e/wikimania-2014-registration-11063436035 https://wikimania2010.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration https://wikimania2009.wikimedia.org/wiki/Registration (and the same page on other years) https://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Registration https://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Registration&oldid=5931 &oldid=5931

_______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

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The cost has gone markedly up in the past few years. Scholarships don't really cover that, when who this is going to most affect is newcomers and less active contributors in the actual area whose voices we are particularly unlikely to hear at any other events/locations. These are not the people who are likely to be applying for scholarships in the first place (often they don't even think they'd deserve it to begin with), and requiring it of them now provides a much greater barrier to entry if they even realise they need to do so by the scholarship deadline.

Has this basic reality been addressed? Are there plans to better mitigate this in the future? The overall cost of a Wikimania has ever been subsidised by all sponsors, but now it seems in particular that the target audience has simply changed to largely exclude those of lower income by default. A higher or lower cost doesn't particularly impact those who can afford it, but for those who can't, it's an outright blocker. Even in sweden and the surrounding area we have many contributors who are not exactly well-off, and for next year, if the costs remain consistent, the impact is likely to be far greater.

-I

On 11/06/2019 19:13, Joël Letang wrote:

Hi everyone,

The concerns that have been raised here have, for the most part, been well addressed by those of you with event planning experience (thank you!). Still, I thought it was important to add some clarity and context where possible.

As some of you have mentioned, all Wikimanias are heavily subsidized by the Foundation, and only a small portion of the overall cost is passed on in the form of registration. Stockholm is more expensive than other locations, and the price of hosting the event at Stockholm University is comparable to that of any large event space, which is why the pricing is similar to Wikimania Montreal. However, while location is a factor in the overall cost of the event, we do try to mitigate fluctuations in registration price as much as possible.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, even as costs have fluctuated, the number of scholarships awarded has indeed remained fairly constant over the last few years. Scholarships are a critical element of promoting equity and inclusion at our events. For many, an inability to attend is not due to the price of registration itself, but rather the travel and accommodations, and providing support for that will remain a top priority.

Thanks for your interest in Wikimania and the planning process.

Best, Joël L.

*Jo**ël Letang* (he/him)*_ _*Events Team Manager Wikimedia Foundation https://wikimediafoundation.org/

On Sun, Jun 9, 2019 at 2:20 PM Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net mailto:peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:

I am in a similar position. I went to one Wikimania – it was in my
home city, so I commuted in each day. I am unlikely to be able to
attend another. The money would be better spent on other things
that are more necessary. This is probably pretty average. It was
worth attending that time because it was affordable. For most
Wikimedians it is not worth attending because it is not
affordable, and we prefer being able to eat regularly and sleep
under a roof.

Cheers,

Peter

*From:*Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
<mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org>] *On Behalf Of *CS
*Sent:* 09 June 2019 11:11
*To:* Wikimania general list (open subscription)
*Subject:* Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird
Registration is Now Open!

My  position  is the same as that  of One/Risker, except  that  I
 am  a retiree on  a small   budget.

I  have self-financed all but  one  of my  Wikipedia trips, but
roughly  $3,000 for  a trip  to Sweden for  me  is totally  out
 of the question.

While I realize that  opportunities need to  be extended to  new
and curious users, some of us have worked very  hard for
 Wikipedia over the years, (and been on  the scholarships
committee), and for  the kind of work  we do, meeting  our
 colleagues and the WMF staff  face-to-face  is indispensable.

Not  being able to  attend does not  encourage further dedication
 to  Wikipedia.

The scholarships committee should take into account the personal
financial effort made by attendees of several conferences.

In  my  opinion, as not  all  users come from  wealthy  countries
such  as  North America  or Europe, Wikimania should be held in
more easily  accessible and lower cost  venues.

Kudpung



On 4 Jun 2019, at 13:10, Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com
<mailto:risker.wp@gmail.com>> wrote:

I've been extremely lucky over the years to have attended several
Wikimanias. I live in Canada (so almost never needed a visa) and
had the financial flexibility to do so. I've paid my own way to
some, been subsidized for others with clear expectations that I
would carry out certain activities in exchange, and received one
partial scholarship (which was supposed to be enough for my
airfare - if I had booked it seven months in advance...).  Even
when I've been subsidized, I've had out-of-pocket expenses that I
did not receive reimbursement for until months later (if at all),
but I am blessed not to have to worry about whether there will be
food on the table or a roof over my head. We in the Western world
are used to having paid vacation time - often multiple weeks per
year - and that is another barrier for people in other countries
with different cultures and economies. And many people from Europe
and North America don't need to go through the expense and
challenge of obtaining visas to most of the Wikimania or other
conference locations.

But hundreds - no, thousands - of dedicated contributors aren't in
my/our position.  Even if they are lucky enough to get a full
scholarship, they can't afford the time off work, or get the visa,
or cover the upfront costs of the travel experience that may or
may not be reimbursed. They tend to be in locations far from
wherever Wikimania may be, so paying out of their own pocket is
much more expensive than if they were living in Europe or North
America. Their voices are the ones we miss the most at our
conferences and Wikimanias - and their absence makes it that much
more challenging to help grow new communities.

There will be people who won't be at Wikimania this year because
for non-Europeans it is very expensive to get to and stay in
Sweden.  If my trip this year was not being subsidized (and I have
written responsibilities in exchange for that subsidy), I would
not be going to Wikimania this year; even a "rich Westerner" finds
it too costly.

I don't think that the baseline conference fee is out of line with
what real expenses will be for Wikimania. It's an expensive place
and, even if the university is substantially cutting its fees for
food and room rentals, it's still going to cost an awful lot of
money.  In an ideal world, everyone who wanted to attend would be
subsidized, but I'm realistic enough to know that if we as a
movement were to do that, the conference would be even more
heavily weighted with voices from Europe and North America.

Risker/Anne

On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 at 00:29, Wilfredo Rodríguez
<wilfredor@gmail.com <mailto:wilfredor@gmail.com>> wrote:

    There must be a coherent explanation. It is possible that
    there is an alliance that we can not see between WMF and the
    university so that WMF receives the surplus in donations that
    will be cleanly used.

    On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 22:01 Paulo Santos Perneta,
    <paulosperneta@gmail.com <mailto:paulosperneta@gmail.com>> wrote:

        We are talking about a very dramatic increase in the fee
        in the last few years, not about universities doing events
        for free. And it is quite hard to understand how come an
        event on campus as a fee similar to the ones organized at
        a five star hotels.

        Paulo

        A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 22:55, Kerry Raymond
        <kerry.raymond@gmail.com <mailto:kerry.raymond@gmail.com>>
        escreveu:

            Well, as someone who has worked at a number of
            universities and organised events at others, I am well
            aware that many universities are short of cash and
            expect to be paid by others to use their facilities so
            I would not assume that being “on campus” is a free or
            low-cost venue for Wikimania. A university *may
            *decide that an event is sufficiently in-line with
            their own goals that they may reduce/waive the cost,
            but holding events at  a university does incur real
            additional costs to the university, such as cleaning
            and security at a minimum, so it is not unfair to
            charge for their use.

            Kerry

            *From:*Wikimania-l
            [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org
            <mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org>] *On
            Behalf Of *Paulo Santos Perneta
            *Sent:* Monday, 3 June 2019 8:21 PM
            *To:* Wikimania general list (open subscription)
            <wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
            <mailto:wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
            *Subject:* Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird
            Registration is Now Open!

            Sorry, in the first sentence it should read
            "wikimania" , not "Wikimedia"

            A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 11:19, Paulo Santos
            Perneta <paulosperneta@gmail.com
            <mailto:paulosperneta@gmail.com>> escreveu:

                For us in Portugal joining wikimedia, even in a
                relatively close city like Stockholm, without a
                scholarship stands at a minimum cost of 1000€,
                which really is a prohibitive cost for the great
                majority of people here, corresponding to way more
                than a regular full month wage (two minimum wages,
                actually).

                25% of that cost corresponding to fees that even
                wikimedia volunteers have to pay does seem quite
                obscene to me.

                If a significant amount of the cost is going to
                fancy luxury hotels and parties - those last ones
                barred to wikimedians below 18 years, in this
                years event - this really should be something to
                be reviewed. Also, I agree that it is quite
                difficult to understand such an high fee in this
                year wikimania, where most of the stuff seems to
                be organized on campus.

                Paulo

                A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 00:32, Gnangarra
                <gnangarra@gmail.com <mailto:gnangarra@gmail.com>>
                escreveu:

                    As has in previous years been suggested if we
                    want Wikimania to be truly inclusive and
                    encourage more people to attend then the WMF
                    should just extend the fundraising by a week
                    and use that to subsidise the event making it
                    more accessible to everyone. 1,000 particiants
                    at 250€ is just an extra 250,000€ to collect,
                    collecting enough to allow 200 scholarships
                    would enable greater participation from more
                    communities.

                    On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 at 03:16, Mykola Kozlenko
                    <mycola-k@ukr.net <mailto:mycola-k@ukr.net>>
                    wrote:

                        In 2015, 2017 and 2018 we had Wikimanias
                        in really upscale hotels. I can perfectly
                        understand why renting conference rooms
                        and arranging catering for all
                        participants in a Sheraton or a Hilton is
                        expensive. For instance, Montréal
                        experience in 2017 was pretty much worse
                        233 USD indeed given that we were in a
                        centrally-located Sheraton.

                        This year we are having a Wikimania on a
                        university campus. Yes, Stockholm is an
                        expensive city, but Montréal is not really
                        cheap either. I can't really understand
                        how a university campus in Stockholm is
                        more than 50% more expensive than a
                        Sheraton in Montréal.

                        I don't say I want these costs unbundled,
                        I am happy to pay for the full experience,
                        but with a price tag that high I would
                        really like to know where all this money
                        will go.

                        Best regards,

                        Mykola (NickK)

                        /--- Оригінальне повідомлення ---
                        Від кого:
                        "Isarra Yos" <zhorishna@gmail.com
                        <mailto:zhorishna@gmail.com>>
                        Дата: 2 червня 2019, 18:19:17/

                            On 01/06/2019 19:44, effe iets anders
                            wrote:

                            > You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't 

                            > think this is actually true. Some context:

                            > - 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board

                            > - 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD)

                            > - 2018: 275 USD

                            2016 is indeed when it first went up,
                            but even then the 500€ value was

                            fairly consistent with how much one
                            could expect the whole thing to cost

                            when including fairly decent food and
                            accommodation. What was concerning

                            was that then the cost stayed
                            relatively high, without any of the

                            included stuff - if the 250€ is only
                            the registration price, there's not

                            much to decouple. For instance, is
                            there any food to not include? Lunch

                            being included has pretty much always
                            been standard, for good reason,

                            and we're not doing breakfast and
                            dinner for everyone in the first

                            place, are we? (As I recall, 2015 did
                            include dinner, though, which may

                            indicate part of why it was also more
                            expensive.) And even in terms of

                            fanciness, I'm not sure how much value
                            that has, or if they even have

                            been meaningfully more so than they
                            used to be. Comparing to the

                            Wikiconference USA/NA events I
                            attended some of the same years (I don't

                            think any were over $50, definitely
                            not more than $100), the Wikimanias

                            were mostly just... bigger. Higher volume.

                            For reference, prior wikimanias cost
                            the following for Wikimedians:

                            2015: $95

                            2014: £50.00

                            2013: $45

                            2012: $35

                            2011: $45

                            2010: 30-40€

                            2009: $45

                            2008: $45

                            2007: $40-60

                            2006: $90

                            2005 I can't find, but it was the
                            first and thus organised a bit differently

                            So what happened? How is 250€ now not
                            a lot of money? The first

                            Wikimania I attended was in 2012 and
                            my entire budget was $500, which

                            was basically my holiday budget for
                            the year. I was a student from a

                            poor background, and a lot of our
                            contributors are students. Quite a few

                            of our contributors aren't exactly
                            upper class, or from countries with

                            great conversion rates. Should we
                            really be requiring them to get

                            special support now to even register
                            for the main event for what is

                            supposed to be a world-wide, inclusive
                            movement?

                            250€ is a quite a lot of money. Other
                            things to attend may still cost

                            around the same or more, but if we
                            also need to spend it on those

                            things, we're not going to have that
                            money left to spend on the

                            registration as well.

                            -I

                            https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration

                            https://www.eventbrite.com/e/wikimania-2014-registration-11063436035

                            https://wikimania2010.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration

                            https://wikimania2009.wikimedia.org/wiki/Registration
                            (and the same page

                            on other years)

                            https://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Registration&oldid=5931

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                    GN.
                    Noongarpedia:
                    https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
                    WMAU:
                    http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
                    Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
                    <http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/>

                    Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings
                    (eds.), /Never Again: Reflections on
                    Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8/,
                    UWAP, 2017.  Order here
                    <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>.
                    *Error! Filename not specified.*

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Flight costs between Lisbon and Stockholm were indeed about 100€ many months ago. However, when the scholarships were out, anyone receiving a partial scholarship or wanting to go on their own anyway would have to pay over 400€ already, just for the flight .

Paulo

A sábado, 1 de jun de 2019, 13:41, Tisza Gergő gtisza@gmail.com escreveu:

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 1:12 PM effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:

...

I would even argue that for by far most people, the registration cost will not be the limiting factor - other components of the trip would likely be (unless they are local to Stockholm, maybe). The travel to Stockholm alone will outweigh this fee by a factor of 2, maybe 4 for most, and a week of accommodation with the remaining dinners will probably set you back at least the same amount (if you go very low budget).

Those estimates are way off. Most of our volunteer base is in Europe, where flight costs are typically below $100; you can find accomodation in the immediate vicinity of the conference for $200 (and you can probably go way cheaper with hostels, or by being in a more distant part of the city); if you actually want to go very low budget and skip on restaurants / pubs / etc, food costs are minimal (and obviously people do need to eat outside of Stockholm as well, so it's not really an extra spending). So the conference fee would be about half of your total costs.

...

There are two ways that our movement can try to address this hurdle: one way would be to reduce the price even further for everyone, the other is to provide help for some people to overcome all these financial hurdles. I personally prefer that we spend more on scholarships (travel, accommodation and registration) rather than even further subsidizing the registration fee for all other participants.

So are we actually spending more on scholarships? There is no consistent reporting on scholarships (nor any other aspect of Wikimania for that matter) but some wiki archeology gives:

• 2012: 87 full + 47 partial per [1]
• 2013: 62 full + 18 partial (which apparently somehow adds up to 86...)

per [2]

• 2014: 109 per [3]
• 2015: 110 per [4]
• 2016: 88 full + 35 partial + 6 additional (whatever that means) per [5]

([6] claims 99 full)

• 2017: 81 full + 17 partial per [5]
• 2018: 125 full + 16 partial per [5]
• 2019: 96 full + 20 partial per [5]

So it seems like the higher price of the conference was indeed offset somewhat by a slightly higher number of scholarships in 2018, but that is not the case for 2019. (Granted this is WMF only, and a significant part of scholarships tend to come from affiliates, but it's even harder to find data on that.)

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2012 [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2013 [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars/2014 [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars/2015 [5] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars#2019_WMF_Wikimania... [6] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2016 _______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l