On 2/27/07, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:

On 2/28/07, THD theodoranian@gmail.com wrote:

...

Hi All,

...

http://wikimania.tw/~littlebtc/wikimania/index.php?uselang=en

It looks cool. Thank you for all your helps, involved parties.

...

If you have any question please don't hesitate to let me and Littlebtc know.

One question: Are data submitted for a test will be casted out?

Hopefully; I just put in a junk registration :)

Also on "Badge information": Last year both user name and real name were provided and this combination was useful (specially when a known Wikimedian with his or her username appeared as presentator) . In this year we should only have either one or another?

I agree there should be an option for "both" username and realname on the badge.

Other issues: * required fields should probably be marked with an asterisk or similar * you might consider splitting the name field into family name (surname) and given name * I'd add a province/state field in addition to city for those of us coming from America and elsewhere where it's a common part of the address; it can be optional. * typo in Accommodation: it's July 31st, not June 31st * should Wikimedia project username be required? It should probably be optional. * I'd make a note that Aug 1 & 2 are hacking days, and the other 3 days are main conference

Otherwise, it looks great! Nice work. cheers, phoebe

2007/2/28, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com:

On 2/28/07, THD theodoranian@gmail.com wrote:

...

Hi All,

...

http://wikimania.tw/~littlebtc/wikimania/index.php?uselang=en

It looks cool. Thank you for all your helps, involved parties.

Thanks. Now the system is still in only English and Traditional Chinese. After finishing the translation, it will be multi-lingual. We still need your effort.

If you have any question please don't hesitate to let me and Littlebtc know.

One question: Are data submitted for a test will be casted out?

Also on "Badge information": Last year both user name and real name were provided and this combination was useful (specially when a known Wikimedian with his or her username appeared as presentator) . In this year we should only have either one or another?

We will modify this. Thanks for suggestion.

THD

--

KIZU Naoko Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org

• habent enim emolumentum in labore suo *

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2007/2/28, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com:

On 3/1/07, David Strauss david@fourkitchens.com wrote:

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"A.D." should probably change to "C.E." before the date of birthday.

I can understand your concerns, but C.E. is not so well known among non-native speakers. We could just remove it and put "YYYY-MM-DD" aside the form for avoiding confusion?

A.D. is ridiculous here unless you plan to have some participants who are over 2000 years old... I have this set up on my site using drop-down lists for year and day, so people can't get confused about which is which.

Birthday -> Birthdate

Best wishes, Chuck

On 2/28/07, David Strauss david@fourkitchens.com wrote:

"A.D." should probably change to "C.E."

Please do not put AD or CE. It's not needed and either one will cause a flamewar (see wikien-l archives).

Angela

I was just thinking of mentionning that the AD and CE issue was the first topic to cause a huge war on the french wikipedia, to the point we had to block someone... which is the primary reason why I became an admin in the first place.

ant

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Ah..... This is really a big cultural difference, and I think there's a need of clarification on why the system designer put "AD" here.

In Taiwan, our society doesn't have a generally speaking Christian Religion background. In our daily life, we usually count year in the "19XX", "200X" way as same as most parts of the world, and both in the way "year of Republic of China". For example, I was born in the 66 "year of Republic of China". This year is the 96 "year of Republic of China".

Whatever, the name "year of Republic of China" is another big politically controversial issue for Taiwanese and Chinese communities all over the world. In Wikipedia Chinese Version, there is someone named "Republic of China 95 year". He did editing wars and got blocked several times.

Therefore, the designer just wanted to make it clearer that "Don't fill in the number of year of Republic of China, but 19xx or 20xx". I don't think there was any intention to cause a lift of debates.

Thanks

THD

2007/3/2, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com:

On 3/2/07, THD theodoranian@gmail.com wrote:

...

This is really a big cultural difference, and I think there's a need of clarification on why the system designer put "AD" here.

Thanks for your note, I think it reasonable. Since we Japanese have a similar problem between "Heisei" and so-called "Western calendar". Edir wars around this issue occured, as well.

...

Therefore, the designer just wanted to make it clearer that "Don't fill

in

...

the number of year of Republic of China, but 19xx or 20xx". I don't

think

...

there was any intention to cause a lift of debates.

Reasonable solution.

1. Can we leave it for Chinese version (and other language version

which need a similar remark) and remove the remark from the lest? 2) Or pulldown menu beginning from 1900 can solve the problem also for East-Asian people like us?

Cheers,

-- KIZU Naoko Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org

• habent enim emolumentum in labore suo *

I will discuss with Littlebtc this evening. We discussed a little last night, and we think a pull down menu would be a better solution.

Thanks for all the comments. We have collected them and we will modify the system as soon as possible.

THD

I set to disallow below 1800 or greater than 2007 recently. I will fix it to below 1900.

On 3/2/07, Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com wrote:

On Fri, 2 Mar 2007, THD wrote:

...

Therefore, the designer just wanted to make it clearer that "Don't fill in the number of year of Republic of China, but 19xx or 20xx". I don't think there was any intention to cause a lift of debates.

Why not just disallow any number below 1900 or greater than 2007? That should take care of most alternate year-counting systems.

SJ

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On 3/6/07, christophe.henner@wikimedia.fr christophe.henner@gmail.com wrote:

Is it posible to put fr form online so I can check if everything is really correct?

The same for Italian, please.

AnyFile

David Strauss wrote:

"A.D." should probably change to "C.E." before the date of birthday. I would also use the term "birth date" instead of "birthday." At least in the U.S., people consider the birthday to be the /annual/ occurrence of a certain month and day. (e.g., My birth date is 11 March 1984, but my birthday is just 11 March.)

As far as AD/CE is concerned it's not really needed unless we have people coming who are more than 2000 years old. For that matter, age is not important among Wikipedians so why not omit the question altogether.

Ec

<snip>

The .wikimedia.org option in the project account doesn't seem to make sense. There's no .wikimedia.org project; it's just a listing of projects.

</snip>

Actually, there is :) try nl.wikimedia.org :)

Lodewijk

I didn't notice the non-language options at the bottom of the list. My apologies.

Aphaia wrote:

On 3/1/07, David Strauss david@fourkitchens.com wrote:

...

A few more things:

The .wikimedia.org option in the project account doesn't seem to make sense. There's no .wikimedia.org project; it's just a listing of projects.

I used for my test (meta.wikimedia.org and it is a project)

• species.wikimedia.org
• commons.wikimedia.org
• meta.wikimedia.org

.... and perhaps incubator.wikimedia.org?

I have no idea in the current system how they are described, but it doesn't make a sense to omit them either.

In the last year, we just selected one from a pull-down menu. It could be more easiler. Just thought.

• What is ATM way of payment? Is it a Money order?

• After I have selected payment by ATM and confirmed the form, in the

following page I got the confirmation number, and below after some line in English, the remaining line are in Chinese (I presume)

Please inform translator when the fianle version of the English text is ready for translation.

AnyFIle

I think it's a wrong translation, ATM is the Cash Machine, so ATM meant credit card working only with cash machine and not for paiment,

How would people even get to Wikimania without purchasing a flight on a credit or debit card?

effe iets anders wrote:

So if i understand correctly people with no creditcard (and no PayPal) are not able to pay? I hope this wont be true, there are (at least here in NL) quite a lot people without both. It might be a good thing to add the ability of bank transfer, maybe even through a WMF-account that they transfer it together to you? (to reduce costs for international and inter-valuta traffic)

Lodewijk

2007/2/28, christophe.henner@wikimedia.fr mailto:christophe.henner@wikimedia.fr <christophe.henner@gmail.com mailto:christophe.henner@gmail.com>:

 > * What is ATM way of payment?  Is it a Money order?
 >
 > * After I have selected payment by ATM and confirmed the form, in
the
 > following page I got the confirmation number, and below after some
 > line in English, the remaining line are in Chinese (I presume)
 >
 > Please inform translator when the fianle version of the English text
 > is ready for translation.
 >
 > AnyFIle
 >
I think it's a wrong translation, ATM is the Cash Machine, so  ATM
meant credit card working only with cash machine and not for paiment,
--
schiste

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On 28/02/07, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:

On 2/28/07, David Strauss david@fourkitchens.com wrote:

...

How would people even get to Wikimania without purchasing a flight on a credit or debit card?

By taking cash or a check/cheque into a travel agent. Perhaps some also accept bank transfers.

Angela

And Travellers, they're accepted nearly all around the world. There are many ways to buy tickets and travel without credit card.

In 2006, Wikimania *did* offer accommodations. I assume that's the case for 2007, too.

Any File wrote:

If it act in a way that is similar to a travel agent it would be required by law(*) to be registered as travel agent. But perhaps the thing is doable by stating that the money are not for travel/accommodation only but for cultural purpose.

Wikimedia already has a bank account in Belgium.

Jakob Voss wrote:

Any File wrote:

...

...

It might be a good thing to add the ability of bank transfer, maybe even through a WMF-account that they transfer it together to you? (to reduce costs for international and inter-valuta traffic)

This may be a good idea, but it may have some legal implication. Who would be the entity that collect the money and at what title would do that. [...] If such a thing would be set up, not only the people in that country could benefit, but also the people in many other countries in Europe since the transfer fee to another EU country would be minimal compared to an EU/Taiwan transfer.

In 2005 Wikimania Foundation was given access to a bank account held by Wikimedia Germany. I don't know whether Wikimania Germany can offer this for Wikimania 2007 but I'll ask our treasurer. A bank account within the EU would at least help EU citizen because transfer fee within EU is zero (of course there is transfer fee between EU and taiwan but it's probably less if money is transfered collected). Maybe we could set up a procedure where you weekly send Wikimedia Germany the list of people with keywords and Wikimedia Germany checks whether money has been recieved or not.

Greetings, Jakob

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On 2/28/07, Jakob Voss jakob.voss@nichtich.de wrote:

Any File wrote:

...

...

It might be a good thing to add the ability of bank transfer, maybe even through a WMF-account that they transfer it together to you? (to reduce costs for international and inter-valuta traffic)

This may be a good idea, but it may have some legal implication. Who would be the entity that collect the money and at what title would do that. [...] If such a thing would be set up, not only the people in that country could benefit, but also the people in many other countries in Europe since the transfer fee to another EU country would be minimal compared to an EU/Taiwan transfer.

In 2005 Wikimania Foundation was given access to a bank account held by Wikimedia Germany. I don't know whether Wikimania Germany can offer this for Wikimania 2007 but I'll ask our treasurer. A bank account within the EU would at least help EU citizen because transfer fee within EU is zero (of course there is transfer fee between EU and taiwan but it's probably less if money is transfered collected). Maybe we could set up a procedure where you weekly send Wikimedia Germany the list of people with keywords and Wikimedia Germany checks whether money has been recieved or not.

No need to ask the treasurer, we can't do that :-)

"opening an account in the name of" is not as trivial a thing as it seems. There are many considerations involved. In Germany, for example, you need to have a representative, ie. a subsidiary or some such. It also involves tax questions and such weird things that are not easy to straighten out just "for an event" (they're already not easy "for an organisation" -- believe me, it's not like I haven't been trying ;) )

On the other hand, bank transfer is not always the means of payment of choice. My point being, the Italians may want bank transfer, as the Germans would, but the French or the Americans would simply never use it. In the end, we will never be able to accommodate, at least in the near future, everyone. Paypal with its credit card solution might not be the *best* solution *for everyone*,but at this stage, it is definitely the best solution available to us, with the means we have and the possibility we've explored.

Cheers,

Delphine PS. Ah, and using 5 different accounts to track donation money/wikimania fees/whatever else is *not* a good idea. The Belgian account is not a satisfying solution at this stage, for other reasons.

On 2/28/07, Jakob Voss wrote:

...

A bank account within the EU would at least help EU citizen because transfer fee within EU is zero (of course there is transfer fee between EU and taiwan but it's probably less if money is transfered collected).

Actually this is not true. I know that in some countries the transfert is zero commission, but this is not true in other countries. The "rules" is that for a transfer inside the "agree-zone" (it is not all of the Europe, nor all of the euro zone) is charged the same way a domestic transfer . But since it is not always true that domestic transfer are free of charge, not always the inter-euro transfer are free of charge. For instance I would pay from 1 eur to 8 eur of commission charge from Italy (depending the way used - online or at bank office, the bank branch or post office, etc.)

I just saying that for completeness of information. I is always still true that an inter-euro transfer is much more cheaper than a transfer from an Euro countries to a "far" country

On 3/1/07, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com wrote:

"opening an account in the name of" is not as trivial

I surely know that, and actually I was not thing that such system could be available for this (2007) wikimania, but it can be something that somebody may think for a future edition.

It would be also interesting to compare the overall cost for the receiving part. Usually credit card commissions for a merchant are rather high, if it have not a big volume of affair.

There are many considerations involved.

By the way this rise me a point. Is the person who is sending money (in any way (s)he is doing it) enough informed for what it is paying and who is paying (where the money are going)?

In page http://wikimania2007.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania:Translation/Registration_f... it is said to make transfer to "Association of Digital Culture of Taiwan", but this Association is never cited in any other page of the web site (except for some bulletins) and not cited in another point of the registration form.

In the page that gives you the registration number, there is list of money due, but it is not well stated for what.

On the other hand, bank transfer is not always the means of payment of choice. My point being, the Italians may want bank transfer, as the Germans would, but the French or the Americans would simply never use it.

This rise my curiosity. Why this? Because every French has a credit card?

PS. Ah, and using 5 different accounts to track donation money/wikimania fees/whatever else is *not* a good idea.

That's for sure. A workaround for this would be that this way of payment would be available only for early payment. Actually I know there are many points that would be needed to be addressed (for instance you would have to move personal details from inside the EU to a different country)

AnyFile

2007/3/2, Delphine Ménard notafishz@gmail.com:

On 3/1/07, Any File anysomefile@gmail.com wrote:

...

...

On the other hand, bank transfer is not always the means of payment of choice. My point being, the Italians may want bank transfer, as the Germans would, but the French or the Americans would simply never use it.

This rise my curiosity. Why this? Because every French has a credit

card?

Yes, and it costs little and it's really handy because debit and credit card are in the same plastic thing. And our online banking sucks big time, so making an online bank transfer is hell in a box.

Cultural differences and history are a big part of this "money changing hands" business. There are those who don't like credit cards, those who don't have them, those who would "never do anything involving money over the internet", those who have never seen or heard of a check and those who can't imagine that checks are not accepted, those who love cash and those who hate it, those who are paypal freaks, those who don't trust paypal. In short, there are as many ways of "paying" as there are countries and people. And one organisation cannot accommodate them all.

We have to draw the line somewhere :-)

Delphine

-- ~notafish NB. This address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to this address will probably get lost.

Hi, all,

Generally in Taiwan, banks don't accept people to open an account for just one event, and furthermore, only legal entities who have registered to the government can open bank accounts. When Taipei was chosen to host Wikimania 2007, Taiwanese Wikimedians didn't have an organization to open an account. Neither the Foundation had the qualification. It took much time for the organizing team to negotiate with the banks, but finally in vain.

After several weeks negotiating between the team, Brad and a friendly organization, in which KJ is on the board of trustees, now we have a bank account in Taiwan. This account is from a co-sponsor "Association of Digital Culture of Taiwan", and it is an independent account from their own account. WMF and ADCT both parties acknowledge this account is just for this event. ADCT doesn't charge us for borrowing this account from them.

With this account, we can continue our preparation works. It will be the account for receiving registration fees and etc. Dann ( Ms. Hsin-cheng Hsu), the treasurer of the team will check the account when she gets notification from registration manager of this event. Then we can as soon as possible confirm the attendee's registration, including accommodation, if he/she wants to stay in CTOYAC.

We have set up a SOP in both Paypal and remittance ways. We hope the process of registration goes very smoothly. Thanks for all your concern and understanding. And also, thank you ADCT.

THD

Dear GerardM,

please just re-read what Delphine read:

Cultural differences and history are a big part of this "money changing hands" business. There are those who don't like credit cards, those who don't have them, those who would "never do anything involving money over the internet", those who have never seen or heard of a check and those who can't imagine that checks are not accepted, those who love cash and those who hate it, those who are paypal freaks, those who don't trust paypal. In short, there are as many ways of "paying" as there are countries and people. And one organisation cannot accommodate them all.

A public discussion about how to pay based on different background and limited knowledge of concret circumstances is a wasteful effort of time that can better be used in other places to help Wikimania and the other Wikimedia projects.

Greetings, Jakob

On 3/1/07, christophe.henner@wikimedia.fr christophe.henner@gmail.com wrote:

...

• What is ATM way of payment? Is it a Money order?

I think it's a wrong translation, ATM is the Cash Machine, so ATM meant credit card working only with cash machine and not for paiment,

ATM stands for "Auto-teller maschine", cash machine of bank, credit card company etc. For ongoing Japanese version I didn't translate it literally, but "Interbank transaction"; it simply means you can send your fee to a certain Taiwan Bank account directly (with their account number), and you can do so not only via ATM (perhasp international bank transaction is hard on ATM), but also with a teller who sit on your bank's counter...

Cheers,