2010/8/11 Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru:

I suggest we stop this immediately and DO NOT discuss whether Wikimania-2010 should be relocated

Since the decision was made many months ago, it's probably too late for relocation anyway. The Haifa organizers have probably also entered into all sorts of commitments already once they learned their bid won. Any and all criticism for hosting Wikimania in a country with such a hostile immigration service and bad reputation in a number of nearby countries should befall the jury, IMO. It's perfectly possible they were aware of this but thought it was outweighed by other factors; I wasn't on the jury so I don't know the rationale for this decision.

For the record, from what I've seen so far I have high expectations for Wikimania 2011, and the issues mentioned in this thread plus the climate aside, I'm sure it's gonna be awesome.

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

I can only second what Lodewijk wrote. We have had similar discussions in the last days on this mailing list, on foundation-l and on wikimania-planning-l (which is a closed list).

I have answered and provided thorough information in the other threads, and expressed and our sincere and complete commitment to make this conference as accessible to attendees from all over the Middle East, including Arab Israelis, Palestinians, and citizens of various other countries. We will be very very happy to see this happening, and would treat any constructive suggestion or inquiry with the utmost seriousness.

Wikimania 2011's website has already been translated to Arabic (and of course to English and Hebrew), to a very large extent. It has a wealth of information and everyone is hereby invited to go there and see for themselves.

Haifa is a great city, a home of both Jews and Christian Arabs and Muslim Arabs, a beacon of peaceful coexistence in a disputed Middle East. It can be a wonderful host to our conference, and I wish all of you can make it there and experience it first-hand.

I would also like to refute the horror stories about the security checks at Ben Gurion airport. That airport is world famous for being very safe, without the annoying procedures a la TSA. Yes, it may feel different to most airports, and there have been various cases where people complained about the interviews which can sometimes be longish, but the vast majority of passengers pass there easily and quickly without even removing their shoes....

Harel Cain Wikimania 2011

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Lodewijk lodewijk@effeietsanders.org wrote:

Dear Maysara,

thank you for bringing up any problems people might encounter. I do not think that reconsidering the location is appropriate here. The organizing team has already started, and the decision has been, as stated by others, made many months ago.

I would however like to ask you to come with measures the local team could take to make things easier. What information could they provide on their website, what contacts with governments could they lay, what other constructive solutions could you think of? I got to know the organizing team as solution-focused and I am confident they would listen to your problems and potential solutions. They will do what is reasonably possible to make it possible and likely for people from all over the world to attend the conference.

Thank you for your help.

With kind regards,

Lodewijk Gelauff

2010/8/11 Maysara Omar maysara.omar@gmail.com:

...

Dear Wikimaniacs!

okay i will address this issue, and please excuse me had it been addressed elsewhere online, and point me to where i can have a look on the discussion.

One of the most important criteria in deciding on the place to host wikimania annual conferences is “ease of attendance”, which is only logical. [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Judging_criteria] Now there are some serious concerns regarding hosting the next wikimania conference in Haifa, Israel. Please bear with me, and understand that non of these concerns has anything to do with politics, and that they are entirely practical:

1. This is a quote from a website of an American company called “A Briggs

Passport & Visa Expeditors” [http://www.abriggs.com/high_level/FER_I/Israel_FER.php] which specializes in securing “expedited passports and travel visas for international travelers ...” It says:

“Israel has strict security measures that may affect visitors. Prolonged questioning and detailed searches may take place at the time of entry and/or departure at all points of entry to Israel, including entry from the West Bank and Gaza. Travelers with Arabic surnames, those who ask that Israeli stamps not be entered into their passports, and unaccompanied female travelers have been delayed and subjected to close scrutiny at points of entry. Security-related delays or obstacles in bringing in or departing with cameras or electronic equipment are not unusual. Laptop computers and other electronic equipment have been confiscated from travelers leaving Israel from Ben Gurion Airport during security checks. While most are returned prior to departure, some equipment has been damaged, destroyed or lost as a result. Americans who have had personal property damaged due to security procedures at Ben Gurion can contact the Commissioner of Complaints at the airport for redress. During searches and questioning, Israeli authorities have denied American citizens access to U.S. consular officers, lawyers, or family members.”

This is not the only source that confirms these practices.

2. It is frequently reported, that airport and entry points officials,

refuse to stamp the israeli entry permit in a separate paper and insist on stamping it in the passport. Travelers with an israeli visa, or even exit/entry stamp in their passports, may not enter many countries, including Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, and Sudan, and perhaps other countries of which i have no knowledge. Carriers of visas and stamps from any of these countries and other countries as well (such as Bahrain, Pakistan, Algeria, Indonesia, and Malaysia) are reported to be frequently harassed and maltreated as they attempt to enter Israel.

3. I am rather concerned about the difficulty, and impossibility of some

interested participants to be able to attend had they wanted. There are problems on the levels of acquiring a visa, then leaving their countries to Israel without trouble, then entering Israel, then leaving Israel, then getting back to their countries from Israel; the prospect of trouble and maltreatment exists with every step of these. Participants from Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine, and maybe other countries, are not even allowed to enter into Israel. Why should they not be able to participate in the wikimania annual conference? And why should the conference be held in such a place, in which precisely “ease of attendance” is absolutely lacking?!

I believe that Israel is not an appropriate place in which to hold a conference such as wikimania for all the reasons mentioned above, and i believe that it is fair to reconsider the decision, and i hope that we, along with the wikimedia foundation, and along with the israeli participants too, will find reason to address the issue with view to fairness and practicality.

Most appreciatively, Maysara Omar

---

Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

---

Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hello to All :)

1) Of course i am aware that the decision has already been made. I would not have brought this issue had i not thought, (along with many others by the way who are unfortunately not here to express themselves about this) that whatever jury took that decision has fallen into a manifest error, that justifies a look back and reconsideration, rather than be ignored, and regardless of whether this will change things or not. The issue needs to be addressed, because it is very important. It is a fact, that participants from Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and possibly other countries, will never have the chance to attend the next wikimania conference should it be held in Israel. Further, other participants from other countries, particularly "Arab" countries whose citizens do not usually go to Israel for any purpose, and this applies to both Jordan and Egypt with whom Israel is in diplomatically fine terms, will find many troubles from both the Israeli and their own governments. This is no speculation, there are hundreds of accounts on the internet of maltreatment and confiscation of belongings of passengers for all sorts of reasons by Israeli officials at entry/exit points. Questions asked in such aggressive tonality and attitude regarding the passengers' views and opinion of Israel and the conflict in the middle east. Please ask the ministry of foreign affairs, whether they will let some attendees in, if they answered these questions as they do believe rather than fake a friendly answer!

2) If even presidential elections can be repeated because their results were doubtful, i cannot see why everyone here so far is talking about the "impossibility" of reconsidering the validity of the decision made by the jury, as though it is a sanctified or infallible one! Somehow it seems that so far no one apart from myself, who could get into Israel only following a car or bus ride of 8 hours from my very home in Cairo, took the time to think of the position of those who will never be permitted into Israel, or who will avoid doing so because Israel is in fact a problematic destination for them. And regardless of whether any of this is fair or not, we currently do have a realistic situation that is laden with injustice and great potential of practical disorder, which somehow was not raised during the decision making process, although it is no secret or news! This suggests that non of those who will be negatively effected by the decision, were present when the process of deciding was ongoing. One of the benefits of this discussion then, is perhaps to give more attention to such matters as representativeness, inclusive deliberation, and outreach, in further such processes of wikimania biding and decision making. Perhaps from now on, we should make more effort in reaching out for, you know, "all the people on Earth" who might want to come to wikimania with their experiences, etc. Unfortunately I was not there then, and maybe i won't be able to be there later, but I do not believe that it is too late to bring this issue now, and to attempt to correct what is wrong even by those who, understandably, love their own country and would have loved to see it hosting such a wonderful event. It is for a clean, freeing, progressive, and Humanistic experience and social process that we commit ourselves; the passing-by moments in this experience will be destructive if they are absorbed only in the passing-by moment!

Finally, Wikimania conferences must be accessible to everyone, without having to speak of making "exceptions" and taking extra measures to smoothen the passage of those who participate together everyday in creating and making the new free knowledge and culture of our age and the future. This is the position that I have chosen for myself, rather than the one that you ask me to adopt, that is, to suggest solutions to numberless problems and to an erroneous and unfair condition and situation. And now I ask you, what is YOUR position?

:) -- Maysara

Nathan, we are not complaining about the cultural political "accommodations" that participants would naturally need to subject themselves to, WHERE EVER the conference would be! We are speaking about the very access to the conference. And I disagree, once such cultural/political accommodation requirements become excessive (such as asking women to wear full face veil for example), then these excesses should be a sufficient reason to look for an option that has a more moderate, open, accepting, and enlightened cultural/political identity. You come to the matter under discussion from without; no one said anything about the cultural/political accommodations that we will still need to adopt when in Haifa. And your statement "If some simply can't make it to Israel, then I hope they can make it to the following event." is arrogant, inconsiderate, and lacking in all Human empathy. It is exactly for such statements, and the rationale and spirit that resides beneath and within them, that I am bringing this issue here. Those "some" that you refer to are being "prevented" from making it to Israel, and not necessarily because they choose so. And those "some" are being thus prevented just because they happen to possess a specific national identity. I do not fall in this category, although I am not entirely excluded from it, yet, i wished this awkward condition encompassed you and embraced you like an over protective mother!

I do not think that it's a disaster to have a wikimania conference without Arabs in it. Actually i don't think it's a problem at all. And if i personally was Syrian or Iranian or Lebanese, etc, I would not have made the fuss because I am this or that. It's only that i don't think this situation is intentional, and therefore it must be unnecessary! That's why I systematically point to the beginning of it, the process of decision making, and find validity and purpose in reconsidering its results and correcting its errors.

You could reconsider your position, or you could continue to think, and primarily feel, that the positions of others don't matter! But in any case, you will always be the vigorous and energetic Nathan who is himself more fit to survive!! -- Maysara "All that is necessary to right action, is right judgment." _Rene Descartes

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 6:01 AM, Nathan nawrich@gmail.com wrote:

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Maysara Omar maysara.omar@gmail.com wrote: And now I ask you, what is YOUR position?

...

:)

My position, since you asked, is that if we can (and should) hold Wikimania in Egypt, we can also do so in Israel. Just like Wikimedians had to make accommodations with the cultural and political situation in Egypt, so must they do so in Israel. That accommodations must be made is not sufficient reason to undo a decision already announced and planning already begun. The bid team in Israel has said they will provide whatever assistance they can, and I'm sure they will. If some simply can't make it to Israel, then I hope they can make it to the following event.

Nathan

---

Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Gerald A wrote:

I'm not sure what a "manifest error" is.

A manifest error is one that could be easily and visibly seen and detected. Having a conference of the nature of wikimania, in a place that will prevent many people from attending because of their nationality, is a very good example of what a "manifest error" is.

However, the Jury is made up of smart people ...

HAHAHAHA! So what?! I am smart too! ;)

Some presidential elections are repeated/questioned because of

irregularities in the voting process. Unless you are questioning the integrity of the jury's selection process, (which I don't believe you are), then your analogy doesn't hold.

No! The purpose of the analogy was to break the stiffness that was shown in refusing the prospect of reconsideration altogether, and not because of the possibility of irregularities in the voting process, THUS, my analogy does hold! In any case, I hereby declare that both the deliberative and decision-making processes of that jury must be subjected to scrutinizing investigation, because, as a matter of fact, the concerns raised now here were actually raised since January 2010 (one year and 8 months before the date of the event!!!), HERE: [ http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa]

My position is that while life should be fair, it is often not. [...]

My idealism is concerned with the RESULT of the decision making process, while it is you who is idealizing the process itself! If OUR very basic requirements are "beyond the scope of the organizers to address", then THEY shall not be given the responsibility of organization, rather than we abandoning our requirements(.)

Any place that the Jury picks will make it difficult or preclude some from

attending Wikimania.

I don't believe you! Any place that will make it difficult or preclude "some" from attending wikimania shall come second to a place that will not make it difficult for anyone, or will at least make it less difficult. However, how and why a place makes it difficult for "some" to attend must always be carefully considered.

-- Maysara "All that is necessary to right action, is right judgment" _Rene Descartes

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Gerald A geraldablists@gmail.com wrote:

Hello again Maysara

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Maysara Omar maysara.omar@gmail.comwrote:

...

Of course i am aware that the decision has already been made. [...] whatever jury took that decision has fallen into a manifest error

I'm not sure what a "manifest error" is. However, the Jury is made up of smart people, and I've assisted on a few bids for Wikimania. They ask tough questions. Competitive cities and ordinary Wikimedians are also invited to ask questions while the bidding is going on. This is an open and honest process, and it was during that time that questions should have been brought up. Did you ask these questions at that time?

2. If even presidential elections can be repeated because their results

...

were doubtful, i cannot see why everyone here so far is talking about the "impossibility" of reconsidering the validity of the decision made by the jury, as though it is a sanctified or infallible one!

Some presidential elections are repeated/questioned because of irregularities in the voting process. Unless you are questioning the integrity of the jury's selection process, (which I don't believe you are), then your analogy doesn't hold. The Jury made a decision, and you don't agree with it. That doesn't mean it should be subject to review.

...

Finally, Wikimania conferences must be accessible to everyone, without having to speak of making "exceptions" and taking extra measures to smoothen the passage of those who participate together everyday in creating and making the new free knowledge and culture of our age and the future. This is the position that I have chosen for myself, rather than the one that you ask me to adopt, that is, to suggest solutions to numberless problems and to an erroneous and unfair condition and situation. And now I ask you, what is YOUR position?

My position is that while life should be fair, it is often not. While world peace and human harmony are laudable goals that I fully support, we have to live with the realities of today. Any place that the Jury picks will make it difficult or preclude some from attending Wikimania. Sometimes these considerations are geographical, sometimes they will be political, and no matter what they are, they aren't going to be fair for some. So, in the framework of this imperfect world, we should realize that we can't accommodate everyone. And we shouldn't second guess the Wikimania Jury who spent time going through all of the various bids and questioning many organizing teams and coming to a difficult decision.

Now, you can spend a bunch of effort trying to revisit the Jury's decision, or you can expend that same effort trying to assist the current organizing team in helping to accommodate as many people as they can. Or you can even try to revise the selection criteria for future years. I'd think that the best use of effort would be in assisting others, but it is both your time and prerogative to do with as you see fit.

Gerald

---

Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hello Maysara and all,

I feel like I have to send an e-mail again regarding what you wrote below as there is a lot of miss information in what you wrote.

Firstly, let's put things on the table, as an Egyptian you are not feeling good with coming to Israel as it would seem to your friends back home like you are trying to "normalize" relations with Israel. Although there are almost 30 years of peace between our countries, Egypt and Egyptians have been always against normalizing relation with Israel and in fact there is a lot of incitement towards Israel and Jews in general in Egyptian media, books, cultural events and so. Israeli cultural products (movies, music, theater and such) were band from participation in festival in Egypt even international ones held in Egypt. The situation with Jordan is not better…unfortunately. On the meantime, Israel has welcomed movies, music and artists from Egypt and Jordan that have participated in festivals and events in Israel.

I can guarantee that people from all over the world will have no problem coming to the event in Israel. Israeli authorities will allow everyone from everywhere to come to Wikimania providing he/she has not been engaged in terrorist activities…which I believe is not the case for the participants of our event….I doubt Al Qaida, Hammas and Hezbollah care about Wikipedia. I can tell you from past experience that people from Libya and Lebanon came to conferences in Israel without any trouble. The problem maybe with their own home government….but that, unfortunately, we can't control.

Again, accusation bout maltreatment and confiscation of belongings are NONSENCE I want to remind you that Israel is a full functioning democracy!!! We DO NOT do things against the law and will not confiscate anything from anyone unless there is a solid reason. Again, I have been involved with tens of conferences in Israel and had many friends from all over the world coming to Israel, none of them suffered from any of those things you maintained. I would like to kindly ask you to stop with those accusations.

Regarding arriving to Israel from Cairo, again, you don’t have to do that by bus or car only like you said….you can easily fly to Ben gurion international airport in Tel Aviv on a non-stop flight from Cairo with El-Al Israeli airline or Air Sinai (part of Air Egypt). If you need help with making the reservations, I would love to help….

I think that change comes from people and not for the leaders….I would expect you to see this event as a great opportunity to start real dialogue between people in the Mideast and use such an important source of information like Wikipedia to a good use as a tool to bring people together, break stigmas and fight prejudice. The only way we can live together in peace is if we will get to know each other….I have visited Egypt and Jordan as well as the Palestinian territories…I know a lot about the Arab world…what do you know about me?

Hopping to show you all the real face of Israel when you are hear...

Good night from Haifa, Israel

Yohai Edery

יוחאי אדרי

E-mail: yohaied@gmail.com P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Maysara Omar Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:46 AM To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Problematic aspects of hosting the next conference in Haifa, Israel

Hello to All :)

1) Of course i am aware that the decision has already been made. I would not have brought this issue had i not thought, (along with many others by the way who are unfortunately not here to express themselves about this) that whatever jury took that decision has fallen into a manifest error, that justifies a look back and reconsideration, rather than be ignored, and regardless of whether this will change things or not. The issue needs to be addressed, because it is very important. It is a fact, that participants from Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and possibly other countries, will never have the chance to attend the next wikimania conference should it be held in Israel. Further, other participants from other countries, particularly "Arab" countries whose citizens do not usually go to Israel for any purpose, and this applies to both Jordan and Egypt with whom Israel is in diplomatically fine terms, will find many troubles from both the Israeli and their own governments. This is no speculation, there are hundreds of accounts on the internet of maltreatment and confiscation of belongings of passengers for all sorts of reasons by Israeli officials at entry/exit points. Questions asked in such aggressive tonality and attitude regarding the passengers' views and opinion of Israel and the conflict in the middle east. Please ask the ministry of foreign affairs, whether they will let some attendees in, if they answered these questions as they do believe rather than fake a friendly answer!

2) If even presidential elections can be repeated because their results were doubtful, i cannot see why everyone here so far is talking about the "impossibility" of reconsidering the validity of the decision made by the jury, as though it is a sanctified or infallible one! Somehow it seems that so far no one apart from myself, who could get into Israel only following a car or bus ride of 8 hours from my very home in Cairo, took the time to think of the position of those who will never be permitted into Israel, or who will avoid doing so because Israel is in fact a problematic destination for them. And regardless of whether any of this is fair or not, we currently do have a realistic situation that is laden with injustice and great potential of practical disorder, which somehow was not raised during the decision making process, although it is no secret or news! This suggests that non of those who will be negatively effected by the decision, were present when the process of deciding was ongoing. One of the benefits of this discussion then, is perhaps to give more attention to such matters as representativeness, inclusive deliberation, and outreach, in further such processes of wikimania biding and decision making. Perhaps from now on, we should make more effort in reaching out for, you know, "all the people on Earth" who might want to come to wikimania with their experiences, etc. Unfortunately I was not there then, and maybe i won't be able to be there later, but I do not believe that it is too late to bring this issue now, and to attempt to correct what is wrong even by those who, understandably, love their own country and would have loved to see it hosting such a wonderful event. It is for a clean, freeing, progressive, and Humanistic experience and social process that we commit ourselves; the passing-by moments in this experience will be destructive if they are absorbed only in the passing-by moment!

Finally, Wikimania conferences must be accessible to everyone, without having to speak of making "exceptions" and taking extra measures to smoothen the passage of those who participate together everyday in creating and making the new free knowledge and culture of our age and the future. This is the position that I have chosen for myself, rather than the one that you ask me to adopt, that is, to suggest solutions to numberless problems and to an erroneous and unfair condition and situation. And now I ask you, what is YOUR position?

:)

--

Maysara

I can only join Moushira in the hopes for this thread (and similar threads on the other lists) to be peacefully closed now that everyone has made their position clear.

If someone from either side feels obliged to add anything to this thread, let it be constructive and free of any critical judgment on either side.

Harel

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Moushira Elamrawy moushirah@gmail.com wrote:

I believe this thread has the capacity to keep going from now until the time of the conference. Avoiding politics is difficult, but I think it is a must.  Wikimania, was not the reason and will not help resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict. So, maybe it is better not to overload it with what is more than it can bear.

Being judgmental regarding the Israeli or Arab or Islamic governments or societies will also not help the conversation, which I can not tell what is the point behind it now anyway?? The conference venue will not change and there is no need to change it. Every destination could be problematic to a portion of the world; for instance, Middle Eastern citizens need guarantees for an EU and UK visa including a steady job and good looking bank account and other details. Haifa has its own complications with regard to the other countries that will not allow persons with Israeli stamps on their passport. Moreover, some people from the Arab or Muslim population do not find it moral or ethical to visit the State of Israel at the current time, which I believe they have the right to adopt their point of view and express it freely whenever there is a need to, they might even ask for a boycott, but not on this list. I don't see this discussion progressing in much constructive thoughts anyway.

As for Wikimania and Ramadan (thanks to Phoebe for bringing this up) actually, the presence of the mosque is not as troublesome as the fact of having to fast (no eating or driniking) from sun rise to sunset, and do additional spiritual rituals, while you need to attend sessions, analyze and concentrat for a whole day. For those who realize fasting as myself, the decision to travel to attend a conference in Ramadan will be difficult, but will it be reason enough to consider shifting the conference date?

Moushira Looking forward to a peaceful closure of this email thread

2010/8/12 Yohai Edery yohaied@gmail.com

...

Hello Maysara and all,

I feel like I have to send an e-mail again regarding what you wrote below as there is a lot of miss information in what you wrote.

Firstly, let's put things on the table, as an Egyptian you are not feeling good with coming to Israel as it would seem to your friends back home like you are trying to "normalize" relations with Israel. Although there are almost 30 years of peace between our countries, Egypt and Egyptians have been always against normalizing relation with Israel and in fact there is a lot of incitement towards Israel and Jews in general in Egyptian media, books, cultural events and so. Israeli cultural products (movies, music, theater and such) were band from participation in festival in Egypt even international ones held in Egypt. The situation with Jordan is not better…unfortunately. On the meantime, Israel has welcomed movies, music and artists from Egypt and Jordan that have participated in festivals and events in Israel.

I can guarantee that people from all over the world will have no problem coming to the event in Israel. Israeli authorities will allow everyone from everywhere to come to Wikimania providing he/she has not been engaged in terrorist activities…which I believe is not the case for the participants of our event….I doubt Al Qaida, Hammas and Hezbollah care about Wikipedia. I can tell you from past experience that people from Libya and Lebanon came to conferences in Israel without any trouble. The problem maybe with their own home government….but that, unfortunately, we can't control.

Again, accusation bout maltreatment and confiscation of belongings are NONSENCE I want to remind you that Israel is a full functioning democracy!!! We DO NOT do things against the law and will not confiscate anything from anyone unless there is a solid reason. Again, I have been involved with tens of conferences in Israel and had many friends from all over the world coming to Israel, none of them suffered from any of those things you maintained. I would like to kindly ask you to stop with those accusations.

Regarding arriving to Israel from Cairo, again, you don’t have to do that by bus or car only like you said….you can easily fly to Ben gurion international airport in Tel Aviv on a non-stop flight from Cairo with El-Al Israeli airline or Air Sinai (part of Air Egypt). If you need help with making the reservations, I would love to help….

I think that change comes from people and not for the leaders….I would expect you to see this event as a great opportunity to start real dialogue between people in the Mideast and use such an important source of information like Wikipedia to a good use as a tool to bring people together, break stigmas and fight prejudice. The only way we can live together in peace is if we will get to know each other….I have visited Egypt and Jordan as well as the Palestinian territories…I know a lot about the Arab world…what do you know about me?

Hopping to show you all the real face of Israel when you are hear...

Good night from Haifa, Israel

Yohai Edery

יוחאי אדרי

E-mail: yohaied@gmail.com P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Maysara Omar Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:46 AM To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Problematic aspects of hosting the next conference in Haifa, Israel

Hello to All :)

1. Of course i am aware that the decision has already been made. I would

not have brought this issue had i not thought, (along with many others by the way who are unfortunately not here to express themselves about this) that whatever jury took that decision has fallen into a manifest error, that justifies a look back and reconsideration, rather than be ignored, and regardless of whether this will change things or not. The issue needs to be addressed, because it is very important. It is a fact, that participants from Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and possibly other countries, will never have the chance to attend the next wikimania conference should it be held in Israel. Further, other participants from other countries, particularly "Arab" countries whose citizens do not usually go to Israel for any purpose, and this applies to both Jordan and Egypt with whom Israel is in diplomatically fine terms, will find many troubles from both the Israeli and their own governments. This is no speculation, there are hundreds of accounts on the internet of maltreatment and confiscation of belongings of passengers for all sorts of reasons by Israeli officials at entry/exit points. Questions asked in such aggressive tonality and attitude regarding the passengers' views and opinion of Israel and the conflict in the middle east. Please ask the ministry of foreign affairs, whether they will let some attendees in, if they answered these questions as they do believe rather than fake a friendly answer!

2. If even presidential elections can be repeated because their results

were doubtful, i cannot see why everyone here so far is talking about the "impossibility" of reconsidering the validity of the decision made by the jury, as though it is a sanctified or infallible one! Somehow it seems that so far no one apart from myself, who could get into Israel only following a car or bus ride of 8 hours from my very home in Cairo, took the time to think of the position of those who will never be permitted into Israel, or who will avoid doing so because Israel is in fact a problematic destination for them. And regardless of whether any of this is fair or not, we currently do have a realistic situation that is laden with injustice and great potential of practical disorder, which somehow was not raised during the decision making process, although it is no secret or news! This suggests that non of those who will be negatively effected by the decision, were present when the process of deciding was ongoing. One of the benefits of this discussion then, is perhaps to give more attention to such matters as representativeness, inclusive deliberation, and outreach, in further such processes of wikimania biding and decision making. Perhaps from now on, we should make more effort in reaching out for, you know, "all the people on Earth" who might want to come to wikimania with their experiences, etc. Unfortunately I was not there then, and maybe i won't be able to be there later, but I do not believe that it is too late to bring this issue now, and to attempt to correct what is wrong even by those who, understandably, love their own country and would have loved to see it hosting such a wonderful event. It is for a clean, freeing, progressive, and Humanistic experience and social process that we commit ourselves; the passing-by moments in this experience will be destructive if they are absorbed only in the passing-by moment!

Finally, Wikimania conferences must be accessible to everyone, without having to speak of making "exceptions" and taking extra measures to smoothen the passage of those who participate together everyday in creating and making the new free knowledge and culture of our age and the future. This is the position that I have chosen for myself, rather than the one that you ask me to adopt, that is, to suggest solutions to numberless problems and to an erroneous and unfair condition and situation. And now I ask you, what is YOUR position?

:)

--

Maysara

---

Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

---

Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

As for Wikimania and Ramadan (thanks to Phoebe for bringing this up) actually, the presence of the mosque is not as troublesome as the fact of having to fast (no eating or driniking) from sun rise to sunset, and do additional spiritual rituals, while you need to attend sessions, analyze and concentrat for a whole day. For those who realize fasting as myself, the decision to travel to attend a conference in Ramadan will be difficult, but will it be reason enough to consider shifting the conference date? |I proposed changing the date about three months ago due to Ramadhan, but I don't think that's possible:-( Check out my post on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011#proposed_date_for_wikiman...

Of course it is not possible and not required actually. Organizers can not (and don't have to) accommodate the needs and suitability of each and every person or groups who are likely to attend.....

Moushira

2010/8/12 Yohai Edery yohaied@gmail.com

Hello Maysara and all,

I feel like I have to send an e-mail again regarding what you wrote below as there is a lot of miss information in what you wrote.

Firstly, let's put things on the table, as an Egyptian you are not feeling good with coming to Israel as it would seem to your friends back home like you are trying to "normalize" relations with Israel. Although there are almost 30 years of peace between our countries, Egypt and Egyptians have been always against normalizing relation with Israel and in fact there is a lot of incitement towards Israel and Jews in general in Egyptian media, books, cultural events and so. Israeli cultural products (movies, music, theater and such) were band from participation in festival in Egypt even international ones held in Egypt. The situation with Jordan is not better…unfortunately. On the meantime, Israel has welcomed movies, music and artists from Egypt and Jordan that have participated in festivals and events in Israel.

I can guarantee that people from all over the world will have no problem coming to the event in Israel. Israeli authorities will allow everyone from everywhere to come to Wikimania providing he/she has not been engaged in terrorist activities…which I believe is not the case for the participants of our event….I doubt Al Qaida, Hammas and Hezbollah care about Wikipedia. I can tell you from past experience that people from Libya and Lebanon came to conferences in Israel without any trouble. The problem maybe with their own home government….but that, unfortunately, we can't control.

Again, accusation bout maltreatment and confiscation of belongings are *NONSENCE *I want to remind you that Israel is a full functioning democracy!!! We DO NOT do things against the law and will not confiscate anything from anyone unless there is a solid reason. Again, I have been involved with tens of conferences in Israel and had many friends from all over the world coming to Israel, none of them suffered from any of those things you maintained. I would like to kindly ask you to stop with those accusations.

Regarding arriving to Israel from Cairo, again, you don’t have to do that by bus or car only like you said….you can easily fly to Ben gurion international airport in Tel Aviv on a non-stop flight from Cairo with El-Al Israeli airline or Air Sinai (part of Air Egypt). If you need help with making the reservations, I would love to help….

I think that change comes from people and not for the leaders….I would expect you to see this event as a great opportunity to start real dialogue between people in the Mideast and use such an important source of information like Wikipedia to a good use as a tool to bring people together, break stigmas and fight prejudice. The only way we can live together in peace is if we will get to know each other….I have visited Egypt and Jordan as well as the Palestinian territories…I know a lot about the Arab world…what do you know about me?

Hopping to show you all the real face of Israel when you are hear...

Good night from Haifa, Israel

*Yohai Edery*

*יוחאי אדרי *

E-mail: yohaied@gmail.com http://gmail.com/ P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to**

*From:* wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Maysara Omar *Sent:* Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:46 AM

*To:* Wikimania general list (open subscription) *Subject:* Re: [Wikimania-l] Problematic aspects of hosting the next conference in Haifa, Israel

Hello to All :)

1. Of course i am aware that the decision has already been made. I would

not have brought this issue had i not thought, (along with many others by the way who are unfortunately not here to express themselves about this) that whatever jury took that decision has fallen into a manifest error, that justifies a look back and reconsideration, rather than be ignored, and regardless of whether this will change things or not. The issue needs to be addressed, because it is very important. It is a fact, that participants from Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and possibly other countries, will never have the chance to attend the next wikimania conference should it be held in Israel. Further, other participants from other countries, particularly "Arab" countries whose citizens do not usually go to Israel for any purpose, and this applies to both Jordan and Egypt with whom Israel is in diplomatically fine terms, will find many troubles from both the Israeli and their own governments. This is no speculation, there are hundreds of accounts on the internet of maltreatment and confiscation of belongings of passengers for all sorts of reasons by Israeli officials at entry/exit points. Questions asked in such aggressive tonality and attitude regarding the passengers' views and opinion of Israel and the conflict in the middle east. Please ask the ministry of foreign affairs, whether they will let some attendees in, if they answered these questions as they do believe rather than fake a friendly answer!

2. If even presidential elections can be repeated because their results

were doubtful, i cannot see why everyone here so far is talking about the "impossibility" of reconsidering the validity of the decision made by the jury, as though it is a sanctified or infallible one! Somehow it seems that so far no one apart from myself, who could get into Israel only following a car or bus ride of 8 hours from my very home in Cairo, took the time to think of the position of those who will never be permitted into Israel, or who will avoid doing so because Israel is in fact a problematic destination for them. And regardless of whether any of this is fair or not, we currently do have a realistic situation that is laden with injustice and great potential of practical disorder, which somehow was not raised during the decision making process, although it is no secret or news! This suggests that non of those who will be negatively effected by the decision, were present when the process of deciding was ongoing. One of the benefits of this discussion then, is perhaps to give more attention to such matters as representativeness, inclusive deliberation, and outreach, in further such processes of wikimania biding and decision making. Perhaps from now on, we should make more effort in reaching out for, you know, "all the people on Earth" who might want to come to wikimania with their experiences, etc. Unfortunately I was not there then, and maybe i won't be able to be there later, but I do not believe that it is too late to bring this issue now, and to attempt to correct what is wrong even by those who, understandably, love their own country and would have loved to see it hosting such a wonderful event. It is for a clean, freeing, progressive, and Humanistic experience and social process that we commit ourselves; the passing-by moments in this experience will be destructive if they are absorbed only in the passing-by moment!

Finally, Wikimania conferences must be accessible to everyone, without having to speak of making "exceptions" and taking extra measures to smoothen the passage of those who participate together everyday in creating and making the new free knowledge and culture of our age and the future. This is the position that I have chosen for myself, rather than the one that you ask me to adopt, that is, to suggest solutions to numberless problems and to an erroneous and unfair condition and situation. And now I ask you, what is YOUR position?

:)

--

Maysara

---

Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

_______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

---

Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 4:54 PM, phoebe ayers phoebe.ayers@gmail.comwrote:

As for Wikimania and Ramadan (thanks to Phoebe for bringing this up)

...

actually, the presence of the mosque is not as troublesome as the fact of having to fast (no eating or driniking) from sun rise to sunset, and do additional spiritual rituals, while you need to attend sessions, analyze and concentrat for a whole day.

Hi all -- it's a good point but I don't want to take credit for something I didn't say; the Ramadan issue was raised by WereSpielChequers, who was having trouble sending to the list, so I forwarded his email for him.

Also, as the (non-voting) facilitator of last year's jury, along with Cary and James Forrester, I'm glad to answer questions about the process in general if I can; but it's really not very exotic -- the group reviews the bids closely, discusses the evidence, and then discusses/argues until they reach consensus on the bid that they think, out of the options, will lead to the most successful Wikimania. This is pretty much the process that's been used every year, with varying degrees of community controversy around the results. Despite controversy, to my knowledge there haven't been many proposals to date for alternative methodologies.

And not to prolong this thread any longer than necessary, but I think it's worth stating explicitly that the jury tries very hard to base their decisions on the requirements listed under the judging criteria and official requirements: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Judging_criteria

In the juries I have been involved in (2007-2011), jury members have taken these requirements very seriously, holding the organizing team and their proposed facilities to high standards, while not ignoring the travel and local laws criteria; however, politics, religion etc. have no part in the decision. As I have stated before, I think that choosing the Wikimania location is a very difficult decision to make, because there are indeed so many factors that go into it. Here is what I as facilitator asked the jury to do: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Jury

-- phoebe

Thomas: Touché! Blessed as you are with extraordinary brainpower. Muslims are allowed to not fast both during travel and while at wikimania so long as they'll pay back the un-fasted days by fasting at a later date.

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 04:49:36 +0100 From: thomas.dalton@gmail.com To: wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Problematic aspects of hosting the next conference in Haifa, Israel

On 12 August 2010 22:00, Moushira Elamrawy moushirah@gmail.com wrote:

...

As for Wikimania and Ramadan (thanks to Phoebe for bringing this up) actually, the presence of the mosque is not as troublesome as the fact of having to fast (no eating or driniking) from sun rise to sunset, and do additional spiritual rituals, while you need to attend sessions, analyze and concentrat for a whole day. For those who realize fasting as myself, the decision to travel to attend a conference in Ramadan will be difficult, but will it be reason enough to consider shifting the conference date?

I studied Islam in some detail at GCSE (British exams taken aged 16, which was 7 years ago for me, so I can't remember all of it) and I seem to remember something about an exception to the fasting for people travelling (with the missed days taken later). I'm not sure whether "travelling" only includes days actually spent travelling from one place to another or if it includes any days spent away from home, but could that exception make life a little easier for Muslims wanting to come to Wikimania?

(Incidentally, Phoebe didn't bring it up, she was just forwarding an email from WereSpielChequers, so he's the one you should thank.)

---

Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:37 PM, Josh Lim jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com wrote:

Thomas,

I believe that exception only applies to when you're traveling between point A and point B, not while you're in point A or point B.

Regards,

Josh

They do apply at point A or B as long as you don't intend to stay there for an extended period of time ('period' varies, but certainly 2-5 days qualify for the exception).

Harel and Moushira,

why the rush on closing this thread?!! :) Let us give time and space for a civilized and purposeful dialogue and deliberation to come to fruition and realization!

-- Maysara "All that is necessary to right action, is right judgment" _Rene Descartes

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:12 AM, Maysara Omar maysara.omar@gmail.comwrote:

Dear Yohai,

I thought it was pretty clear that this has nothing to do with me personally. But just to emphasize, and not to yell or anything like this: THIS DISCUSSION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME PERSONALLY!

Most appreciatively,

Maysara "All that is necessary to right action, is right judgment." _Rene Descartes

2010/8/12 Yohai Edery yohaied@gmail.com

...

Hello Maysara and all,

I feel like I have to send an e-mail again regarding what you wrote below as there is a lot of miss information in what you wrote.

Firstly, let's put things on the table, as an Egyptian you are not feeling good with coming to Israel as it would seem to your friends back home like you are trying to "normalize" relations with Israel. Although there are almost 30 years of peace between our countries, Egypt and Egyptians have been always against normalizing relation with Israel and in fact there is a lot of incitement towards Israel and Jews in general in Egyptian media, books, cultural events and so. Israeli cultural products (movies, music, theater and such) were band from participation in festival in Egypt even international ones held in Egypt. The situation with Jordan is not better…unfortunately. On the meantime, Israel has welcomed movies, music and artists from Egypt and Jordan that have participated in festivals and events in Israel.

I can guarantee that people from all over the world will have no problem coming to the event in Israel. Israeli authorities will allow everyone from everywhere to come to Wikimania providing he/she has not been engaged in terrorist activities…which I believe is not the case for the participants of our event….I doubt Al Qaida, Hammas and Hezbollah care about Wikipedia. I can tell you from past experience that people from Libya and Lebanon came to conferences in Israel without any trouble. The problem maybe with their own home government….but that, unfortunately, we can't control.

Again, accusation bout maltreatment and confiscation of belongings are *NONSENCE *I want to remind you that Israel is a full functioning democracy!!! We DO NOT do things against the law and will not confiscate anything from anyone unless there is a solid reason. Again, I have been involved with tens of conferences in Israel and had many friends from all over the world coming to Israel, none of them suffered from any of those things you maintained. I would like to kindly ask you to stop with those accusations.

Regarding arriving to Israel from Cairo, again, you don’t have to do that by bus or car only like you said….you can easily fly to Ben gurion international airport in Tel Aviv on a non-stop flight from Cairo with El-Al Israeli airline or Air Sinai (part of Air Egypt). If you need help with making the reservations, I would love to help….

I think that change comes from people and not for the leaders….I would expect you to see this event as a great opportunity to start real dialogue between people in the Mideast and use such an important source of information like Wikipedia to a good use as a tool to bring people together, break stigmas and fight prejudice. The only way we can live together in peace is if we will get to know each other….I have visited Egypt and Jordan as well as the Palestinian territories…I know a lot about the Arab world…what do you know about me?

Hopping to show you all the real face of Israel when you are hear...

Good night from Haifa, Israel

*Yohai Edery*

*יוחאי אדרי *

E-mail: yohaied@gmail.com http://yohaied@gmail.com%20 P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

*From:* wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Maysara Omar *Sent:* Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:46 AM

*To:* Wikimania general list (open subscription) *Subject:* Re: [Wikimania-l] Problematic aspects of hosting the next conference in Haifa, Israel

Hello to All :)

1. Of course i am aware that the decision has already been made. I would

not have brought this issue had i not thought, (along with many others by the way who are unfortunately not here to express themselves about this) that whatever jury took that decision has fallen into a manifest error, that justifies a look back and reconsideration, rather than be ignored, and regardless of whether this will change things or not. The issue needs to be addressed, because it is very important. It is a fact, that participants from Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and possibly other countries, will never have the chance to attend the next wikimania conference should it be held in Israel. Further, other participants from other countries, particularly "Arab" countries whose citizens do not usually go to Israel for any purpose, and this applies to both Jordan and Egypt with whom Israel is in diplomatically fine terms, will find many troubles from both the Israeli and their own governments. This is no speculation, there are hundreds of accounts on the internet of maltreatment and confiscation of belongings of passengers for all sorts of reasons by Israeli officials at entry/exit points. Questions asked in such aggressive tonality and attitude regarding the passengers' views and opinion of Israel and the conflict in the middle east. Please ask the ministry of foreign affairs, whether they will let some attendees in, if they answered these questions as they do believe rather than fake a friendly answer!

2. If even presidential elections can be repeated because their results

were doubtful, i cannot see why everyone here so far is talking about the "impossibility" of reconsidering the validity of the decision made by the jury, as though it is a sanctified or infallible one! Somehow it seems that so far no one apart from myself, who could get into Israel only following a car or bus ride of 8 hours from my very home in Cairo, took the time to think of the position of those who will never be permitted into Israel, or who will avoid doing so because Israel is in fact a problematic destination for them. And regardless of whether any of this is fair or not, we currently do have a realistic situation that is laden with injustice and great potential of practical disorder, which somehow was not raised during the decision making process, although it is no secret or news! This suggests that non of those who will be negatively effected by the decision, were present when the process of deciding was ongoing. One of the benefits of this discussion then, is perhaps to give more attention to such matters as representativeness, inclusive deliberation, and outreach, in further such processes of wikimania biding and decision making. Perhaps from now on, we should make more effort in reaching out for, you know, "all the people on Earth" who might want to come to wikimania with their experiences, etc. Unfortunately I was not there then, and maybe i won't be able to be there later, but I do not believe that it is too late to bring this issue now, and to attempt to correct what is wrong even by those who, understandably, love their own country and would have loved to see it hosting such a wonderful event. It is for a clean, freeing, progressive, and Humanistic experience and social process that we commit ourselves; the passing-by moments in this experience will be destructive if they are absorbed only in the passing-by moment!

Finally, Wikimania conferences must be accessible to everyone, without having to speak of making "exceptions" and taking extra measures to smoothen the passage of those who participate together everyday in creating and making the new free knowledge and culture of our age and the future. This is the position that I have chosen for myself, rather than the one that you ask me to adopt, that is, to suggest solutions to numberless problems and to an erroneous and unfair condition and situation. And now I ask you, what is YOUR position?

:)

--

Maysara

---

Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Come on Harel, you are a true Wikipedian; you must have seen REAL yelling in your time before! :)

m.

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:

You're free to go on, I was just feeling it was becoming less constructive and rather uncivilized, with all that yelling going on.

Harel

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:21 AM, Maysara Omar maysara.omar@gmail.com wrote:

...

Harel and Moushira,

why the rush on closing this thread?!! :) Let us give time and space for

a

...

civilized and purposeful dialogue and deliberation to come to fruition

and

...

realization!

Maysara "All that is necessary to right action, is right judgment" _Rene

Descartes

...

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:12 AM, Maysara Omar maysara.omar@gmail.com wrote:

...

Dear Yohai, I thought it was pretty clear that this has nothing to do with me personally. But just to emphasize, and not to yell or anything like

this:

...

...

THIS DISCUSSION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME PERSONALLY! Most appreciatively, -- Maysara "All that is necessary to right action, is right judgment." _Rene Descartes

2010/8/12 Yohai Edery yohaied@gmail.com

...

Hello Maysara and all,

I feel like I have to send an e-mail again regarding what you wrote

below

...

...

...

as there is a lot of miss information in what you wrote.

Firstly, let's put things on the table, as an Egyptian you are not feeling good with coming to Israel as it would seem to your friends

back

...

...

...

home like you are trying to "normalize" relations with Israel. Although there are almost 30 years of peace between our countries, Egypt and Egyptians have been always against normalizing relation with Israel and

in

...

...

...

fact there is a lot of incitement towards Israel and Jews in general in Egyptian media, books, cultural events and so. Israeli cultural

products

...

...

...

(movies, music, theater and such) were band from participation in

festival

...

...

...

in Egypt even international ones held in Egypt. The situation with

Jordan is

...

...

...

not better…unfortunately. On the meantime, Israel has welcomed movies,

music

...

...

...

and artists from Egypt and Jordan that have participated in festivals

and

...

...

...

events in Israel.

I can guarantee that people from all over the world will have no

problem

...

...

...

coming to the event in Israel. Israeli authorities will allow everyone

from

...

...

...

everywhere to come to Wikimania providing he/she has not been engaged

in

...

...

...

terrorist activities…which I believe is not the case for the

participants of

...

...

...

our event….I doubt Al Qaida, Hammas and Hezbollah care about Wikipedia.

I

...

...

...

can tell you from past experience that people from Libya and Lebanon

came to

...

...

...

conferences in Israel without any trouble. The problem maybe with their

own

...

...

...

home government….but that, unfortunately, we can't control.

Again, accusation bout maltreatment and confiscation of belongings are NONSENCE I want to remind you that Israel is a full functioning

democracy!!!

...

...

...

We DO NOT do things against the law and will not confiscate anything

from

...

...

...

anyone unless there is a solid reason. Again, I have been involved with

tens

...

...

...

of conferences in Israel and had many friends from all over the world

coming

...

...

...

to Israel, none of them suffered from any of those things you

maintained. I

...

...

...

would like to kindly ask you to stop with those accusations.

Regarding arriving to Israel from Cairo, again, you don’t have to do

that

...

...

...

by bus or car only like you said….you can easily fly to Ben gurion international airport in Tel Aviv on a non-stop flight from Cairo with

El-Al

...

...

...

Israeli airline or Air Sinai (part of Air Egypt). If you need help with making the reservations, I would love to help….

I think that change comes from people and not for the leaders….I would expect you to see this event as a great opportunity to start real

dialogue

...

...

...

between people in the Mideast and use such an important source of information like Wikipedia to a good use as a tool to bring people

together,

...

...

...

break stigmas and fight prejudice. The only way we can live together in peace is if we will get to know each other….I have visited Egypt and

Jordan

...

...

...

as well as the Palestinian territories…I know a lot about the Arab world…what do you know about me?

Hopping to show you all the real face of Israel when you are hear...

Good night from Haifa, Israel

Yohai Edery

יוחאי אדרי

E-mail: yohaied@gmail.com P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Maysara

Omar

...

...

...

Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:46 AM

To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Problematic aspects of hosting the next conference in Haifa, Israel

Hello to All :)

1. Of course i am aware that the decision has already been made. I

would

...

...

...

not have brought this issue had i not thought, (along with many others

by

...

...

...

the way who are unfortunately not here to express themselves about

this)

...

...

...

that whatever jury took that decision has fallen into a manifest error,

that

...

...

...

justifies a look back and reconsideration, rather than be ignored, and regardless of whether this will change things or not. The issue needs

to be

...

...

...

addressed, because it is very important. It is a fact, that

participants

...

...

...

from Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and possibly other countries,

will

...

...

...

never have the chance to attend the next wikimania conference should it

be

...

...

...

held in Israel. Further, other participants from other countries, particularly "Arab" countries whose citizens do not usually go to

Israel for

...

...

...

any purpose, and this applies to both Jordan and Egypt with whom Israel

is

...

...

...

in diplomatically fine terms, will find many troubles from both the

Israeli

...

...

...

and their own governments. This is no speculation, there are hundreds

of

...

...

...

accounts on the internet of maltreatment and confiscation of belongings

of

...

...

...

passengers for all sorts of reasons by Israeli officials at entry/exit points. Questions asked in such aggressive tonality and attitude

regarding

...

...

...

the passengers' views and opinion of Israel and the conflict in the

middle

...

...

...

east. Please ask the ministry of foreign affairs, whether they will let

some

...

...

...

attendees in, if they answered these questions as they do believe

rather

...

...

...

than fake a friendly answer!

2. If even presidential elections can be repeated because their results

were doubtful, i cannot see why everyone here so far is talking about

the

...

...

...

"impossibility" of reconsidering the validity of the decision made by

the

...

...

...

jury, as though it is a sanctified or infallible one! Somehow it seems

that

...

...

...

so far no one apart from myself, who could get into Israel only

following a

...

...

...

car or bus ride of 8 hours from my very home in Cairo, took the time to think of the position of those who will never be permitted into Israel,

or

...

...

...

who will avoid doing so because Israel is in fact a problematic

destination

...

...

...

for them. And regardless of whether any of this is fair or not, we

currently

...

...

...

do have a realistic situation that is laden with injustice and great potential of practical disorder, which somehow was not raised during

the

...

...

...

decision making process, although it is no secret or news! This

suggests

...

...

...

that non of those who will be negatively effected by the decision, were present when the process of deciding was ongoing. One of the benefits

of

...

...

...

this discussion then, is perhaps to give more attention to such matters

as

...

...

...

representativeness, inclusive deliberation, and outreach, in further

such

...

...

...

processes of wikimania biding and decision making. Perhaps from now on,

we

...

...

...

should make more effort in reaching out for, you know, "all the people

on

...

...

...

Earth" who might want to come to wikimania with their experiences, etc. Unfortunately I was not there then, and maybe i won't be able to be

there

...

...

...

later, but I do not believe that it is too late to bring this issue

now, and

...

...

...

to attempt to correct what is wrong even by those who, understandably,

love

...

...

...

their own country and would have loved to see it hosting such a

wonderful

...

...

...

event. It is for a clean, freeing, progressive, and Humanistic

experience

...

...

...

and social process that we commit ourselves; the passing-by moments in

this

...

...

...

experience will be destructive if they are absorbed only in the

passing-by

...

...

...

moment!

Finally, Wikimania conferences must be accessible to everyone, without having to speak of making "exceptions" and taking extra measures to

smoothen

...

...

...

the passage of those who participate together everyday in creating and making the new free knowledge and culture of our age and the future.

This is

...

...

...

the position that I have chosen for myself, rather than the one that

you ask

...

...

...

me to adopt, that is, to suggest solutions to numberless problems and

to an

...

...

...

erroneous and unfair condition and situation. And now I ask you, what

is

...

...

...

YOUR position?

:)

--

Maysara

---

Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

---

Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

---

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On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Maysara Omar maysara.omar@gmail.com wrote:

Harel and Moushira,

why the rush on closing this thread?!! :) Let us give time and space for a civilized and purposeful dialogue and deliberation to come to fruition and realization!

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Maysara Omar maysara.omar@gmail.com wrote:

Come on Harel, you are a true Wikipedian; you must have seen REAL yelling in your time before! :)

First, let me make it clear that although I speak as a member of the selection committee that chose Haifa, I certainly don't speak on its behalf.

I'm not sure why you created this thread, Maysara, since you acknowledge that there's no chance of the venue being moved to another country at this point in time. You're also responsible for over a quarter of the posts in it, most of which are rebuttals to people who are entirely dismissive of your arguments, and now you're basically just egging people on (see quoted text above).

Believe it or not, I actually don't dismiss your arguments—you've raised several valid points, in fact. I do want to point out that, as others have suggested, all of these arguments were raised when considering the bids. Haifa won anyway.

You think that was a bad decision, and it's your right to think so. I obviously think otherwise. :)

Your argument against Israel seems to hinge on visa difficulties, so I just wanted to recap our past venues:

2005: Frankfurt, Germany. Schengen area, a hotbed of immigration dispute (believe me, I'm trying to emigrate there now, and witnessed firsthand both the Dutch and Belgian elections); the default destination for people from North Africa and the Near East, and extremely cautious of people from that region. Many invitation letters were sent; thanks to the hard work of the organizers, most, but not all, resulted in issued visas.

2006: Cambridge, Massachusetts. I think we all know what a hassle it is to get into the USA. My country makes you jump through hoops to get in, but when all was said and done we only had one attendee denied a visa on the basis of merit.

2007: Taipei, Taiwan. Taiwan isn't even recognized as a country by most nations, but almost everyone who wanted to attend was able, including representatives from Hong Kong (PRC).

2008: Alexandria, Egypt. Egypt is, technically speaking, a police state. This said, although a few visas were denied, the organization team made sure that most people—including a few Israelis—were able to attend.

2009: Buenos Aires, Argentina. I actually can't really comment on this one; I believe one or two people were refused visas, but the fact is that there isn't a single country on the planet that allows citizens of all 195 countries (and other jurisdictions) hassle-free entry.

2010: Gdańsk, Poland. Like Frankfurt, in Schengen, but dozens of invitation letters and close cooperation with government authorities ensured that most people could attend.

Each Wikimania will see a few people unable or unwilling to attend because, by definition, most of its attendees will be coming from other countries, and countries mean politics. My colleagues and I considered this issue, researched it extensively, and discussed it for literally hours, and came to a decision that still favored Haifa.

You're entitled to your opinion, and our respective politics regarding Israel are obviously different. Again, though, I want to ask what you're trying to achieve with this, and suggest that politics alone don't warrant a disruptive mailing list thread.

Austin

Omar, you are going in circles trying to push a personal conviction with an empty rhetoric. You first say Visas are only a minor problem, right before starting again explaining how unfair it is for people that cannot/should not have an Israel visa on their passports.The local team is committed to help those interested in assisting to Wikimania, and gave plausible solutions for this situation. There will always be someone that will have more difficulties getting to a point on earth; that's why Wikimania is hosted in a different place every year.

You don't realize that you are insulting not only the jury (of which I was also part) claiming it committed errors you don't mind explaining, but even worse, you insult the Israel team, that place a very solid bid, and are working their arses off to organize the Wikimania and at the same time attend to the necessities of all those interested in participating of it. If you think that you don't want to participate because of the location of the Wikimania, then I suggest you to let these people work. You are not being constructive at all, and going around on this subject any further can only be considered a trolling. Please try to be constructive and help the organizing team though the best Wikimania yet. Insha'Allah, you will decide for travelling to Haifa and have a great experience there. Salam,MarianoC.- --- El jue 12-ago-10, Maysara Omar maysara.omar@gmail.com escribió:

De: Maysara Omar maysara.omar@gmail.com Asunto: Re: [Wikimania-l] Problematic aspects of hosting the next conference in Haifa, Israel Para: "Wikimania general list (open subscription)" wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org Fecha: jueves, 12 de agosto de 2010, 20:27

Austin Hair wrote:

> I'm not sure why you created this thread, Maysara, since you acknowledge that there's no chance of the venue being moved to another country at this point in time. You're also responsible for over a

quarter of the posts in it,  I created this thread because I think this is an important issue to be addressed. And i do believe that there is and should be a chance at least to discuss whether the venue should be moved to another country, and that it should in fact be moved to another country (there is still one year ahead). And i think we need  to do this again now because, with all due respect, people like you who were involved in the initial decision making process made mistakes big enough to justify a serious reconsideration. By the way, did you ever gave a justification as to why, although you knew about all these obstacles, you continued to believe that Haifa should be chosen? In my opinion which i stated above, there are no valid justifications to the current situation; it's absolutely unnecessary and avoidable. Finally i am responsible for over a quarter of the posts in this thread because it is me who brought this issue up, and because i am committed to answer every new argument brought through by the dialogue and discussion (for example, the way i am answering your insignificant point now, about me being responsible for over a quarter of the posts in this thread! and so on!!) And i praise Maysara for doing that! And not just for that, but also for keeping to consistency, integrity, truthfulness, sense of purpose, self-control and self-confidence, despite of the fact that, at least in this forum, I stand alone in defense of my argument and reasoning.

Your argument against Israel seems to hinge on visa difficulties,

That is not true; visa difficulties is only a minor part of the problem. My problem is: why to ignore and deny those whom *WE ALREADY KNOW* cannot have an Israeli visa to participate in wikimania conference. I hold to this argument not against Israel, but in principle of fairness and right of all to attend and come to participation. Therefore I am convinced that my argument should be adopted even by Israelis, as long as they believe in that simple and basic principle: attendance *possible* for all(.) Many of you brought the issue of difficulties as being a fact of life, and existent every where. This is true, if a difficulty exists everywhere, then we can consider it to be a fact of life, or even deal with it as though non-existent (applying for a visa in the first place can be thus considered, regardless of to where). But the situation currently discussed in relation to Israel, is *not* a fact of life, does not exist everywhere, and involve the qualities of social prejudice, discrimination, and hostility. Again, it is an erroneous condition that we should find reason to evade. Those who will be negatively effected by that condition are being done wrong, not because it was an unavoidable condition, and not because no one had any control over changing it. They will be done wrong because everyone responsible to undertake the correction, or to demand such correction, did nothing or even opposed it.

You're entitled to your opinion, and our respective politics regarding Israel are obviously different.

I never spoke with view to politics thus far, and i don't think i will ever do, although i have much to say.

-- Maysara"All that is necessary to right action, is right judgment." _Rene Descartes

-----Adjunto en línea a continuación-----

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On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 4:44 AM, Gerald A geraldablists@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Austin,

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 6:40 PM, Austin Hair adhair@gmail.com wrote:

...

Believe it or not, I actually don't dismiss your arguments—you've raised several valid points, in fact. I do want to point out that, as others have suggested, all of these arguments were raised when considering the bids. Haifa won anyway.

While I've been suggesting this in passing, I'm glad a member of the Jury has come forward to confirm they actually did understand that some people might have difficulty in making it to a confrence in Haifa, but that it was a consideration that was raised and considered.

...

You think that was a bad decision, and it's your right to think so. I obviously think otherwise. :)

Just to be clear -- I do think everyone has a right to their opinion.

If Moushira believes there is a flaw in the selection process, I would encourage him to make this known to Wikimanians, so that the process can be improved and future selections can avoid that mistake.

He seems to keep at the point that if _some_ people can't attend, then we shouldn't host a Wikimania in that city. With this approach, I feel we would never hold another Wikimania, as someone is always going to have difficulties in getting to a host city.

I think your response is the final word on this -- up until now, I've just been guessing about what the Jury might have considered. Now that we know it was on the table and Haifa won anyways, I think we've addressed all that needed to be addressed.

Thanks, Gerald

Thanks for your final input Gerlad, but I believe you meant Maysara and not

myself, since I am not the one who has problem with Wikimania 2011 decision or its suitability to some nations. Plus, I am a she not a he :)

Regards, M

---

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2009: Buenos Aires, Argentina. I actually can't really comment on this one; I believe one or two people were refused visas, but the fact is that there isn't a single country on the planet that allows citizens of all 195 countries (and other jurisdictions) hassle-free entry.

Not that I want to support this thread any further (and I believe you as a moderator could have already frozen it), but just to remark that as far as I know there is a single country in the world which provides hassle-free entry and hands in visa on arrival to visitors of any nationality. This is Maldives.

Cheers Yaroslav

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 9:32 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter putevod@mccme.ru wrote:

Not that I want to support this thread any further (and I believe you as a moderator could have already frozen it), but just to remark that as far as I know there is a single country in the world which provides hassle-free entry and hands in visa on arrival to visitors of any nationality. This is Maldives.

I did not know that!

Unfortunately, the fact that you can be prosecuted for practicing any religion other than Islam[1] might be a problem for for many of our attendees, making it a non-starter.

Austin

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldives#Religion

Hi,

Well…let's start with a basic fact….mistakes happen. We are all human beings and sometimes we make mistakes…that was obviously one made by the security at TLV airport… BUT, did you read through all of it and saw what the Israel Aviation Authority spokesman said???

Quite from the report you sent:

An IAA spokesperson reported in response: "This incident is unknown to us. We performed a thorough check. There was no contact made with us or any other body. No unusual events were registered at Ben Gurion Airport, and we have no idea about this incident, which, from our perspective, never happened."

IAA officials said that root of the problem is that the host organizations don't bother accompanying their guests to the airport.

So did it really happened? I don’t know but I am sure that the Wikimania team in Israel (which I am not part of…let me be clear about it again) will do his best to make sure each guest will be taken care off.

On the same note, have you ever visited the UK or the US? Did you see the way they treat people with so called "Arab appearance"? will it make you say that we shouldn’t have Wikimania conferences in London or NYC?

Israeli security officers deals with thousands of tourists from all over the world every day. Sometime mistakes like this one (if it really happened) happens, It's great that those incidents are being published (btw, this is an Israeli newspaper and I have seen the story in the Hebrew version as well) so we can learn from it and make sure it won't happen again.

Enjoy,

Yohai Edery

יוחאי אדרי

E-mail: yohaied@gmail.com P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Maysara Omar Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:03 AM To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Problematic aspects of hosting the next conference in Haifa, Israel

Yohai Edery wrote:

Again, accusation bout maltreatment and confiscation of belongings are NONSENCE I want to remind you that Israel is a full functioning democracy!!!

Could you explain this, then: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3931210,00.html

and could you guarantee that it won't happen even to non VIP youth such as ourselves, or maybe to Jimmy Wales if the Israeli officials would grant him VIP status? And is it "nonsense" or fact that the notorious reputation of the full functioning democracy derives from real incidents?

--

Maysara

"All that is necessary to right action, is right judgment." _Rene Descartes

Did you read the respond by the minister of tourism of Israel? " Israeli Tourism Minister Stas Misezhnikov strongly condemned the event" also from the this report "“The ambassador in Finland and the representative of the Ministry of Tourism in our area worked hard to set up Finnish charter flights to Eilat. An investigation is needed so that such events do not recur and the activity does not stop,” the Israeli Embassy in Finland stressed."

Now, it's really a ridiculous attempt to send links to sporadic incidents that might happened everywhere in the world at any time. The fact is that Israel is having about 3 million tourists every year, not including Israeli citizens which with them its more than 10 million people going through security in Israeli airports and land crossing; having those few incidents (which btw I am very regretful for) and in the meantime saving lives of millions of air travelers just shows how good the system works.

Yohai Edery

יוחאי אדרי

E-mail: yohaied@gmail.com P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Maysara Omar Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:25 AM To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Problematic aspects of hosting the next conference in Haifa, Israel

Alright, since you learn from it, here is another mistake:

http://coteret.com/2010/05/25/the-new-frontiers-of-israeli-public-diplomacy-...

;)

2010/8/13 Yohai Edery yohaied@gmail.com

Hi,

Well…let's start with a basic fact….mistakes happen. We are all human beings and sometimes we make mistakes…that was obviously one made by the security at TLV airport… BUT, did you read through all of it and saw what the Israel Aviation Authority spokesman said???

Quite from the report you sent:

An IAA spokesperson reported in response: "This incident is unknown to us. We performed a thorough check. There was no contact made with us or any other body. No unusual events were registered at Ben Gurion Airport, and we have no idea about this incident, which, from our perspective, never happened."

IAA officials said that root of the problem is that the host organizations don't bother accompanying their guests to the airport.

So did it really happened? I don’t know but I am sure that the Wikimania team in Israel (which I am not part of…let me be clear about it again) will do his best to make sure each guest will be taken care off.

On the same note, have you ever visited the UK or the US? Did you see the way they treat people with so called "Arab appearance"? will it make you say that we shouldn’t have Wikimania conferences in London or NYC?

Israeli security officers deals with thousands of tourists from all over the world every day. Sometime mistakes like this one (if it really happened) happens, It's great that those incidents are being published (btw, this is an Israeli newspaper and I have seen the story in the Hebrew version as well) so we can learn from it and make sure it won't happen again.

Enjoy,

Yohai Edery

יוחאי אדרי

E-mail: yohaied@gmail.com http://yohaied@gmail.com%20 P Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to

From: wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Maysara Omar Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:03 AM

To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Problematic aspects of hosting the next conference in Haifa, Israel

Yohai Edery wrote:

Again, accusation bout maltreatment and confiscation of belongings are NONSENCE I want to remind you that Israel is a full functioning democracy!!!

Could you explain this, then: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3931210,00.html

and could you guarantee that it won't happen even to non VIP youth such as ourselves, or maybe to Jimmy Wales if the Israeli officials would grant him VIP status? And is it "nonsense" or fact that the notorious reputation of the full functioning democracy derives from real incidents?

--

Maysara

"All that is necessary to right action, is right judgment." _Rene Descartes

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