Since I didn't went to wikimania and other people were already making the points I wanted to make I tried to stay out of the conversation, but now I need to answer something.
***Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish) from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live in have a different experience of life to everyone else.
Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are much more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic minorities, LGBT people, and others who don't match that description.***
First of all, let's not forget that the incident that started all of this happened to a white straight man from Europe, and so far the only people who were "disqualified" from the conversation for their identity (and trus suffered harassment for something they CAN'T Change) were white males. So if we are going to town identity politics into this, I would say with the basis of this conversation that they are MORE likely to suffer discrimination not less.
Second, no. Every man (or woman) is an island. Each experience is different. Telling someone that all white people thinks the same is like saying <insert racist stereotype here> (I can give exemples but if I do this thread will devolve into a discussion of the stereotype and we done want that).
The best thing that come up of the suffragete and civil rights movements are that we should listen to the ideas not the person who has them, and we should uphold to that if equality is what we want.
PS. : Because I know people will say stuff about if, let's preempt all of it: for those who don't know, I'm Latina and a woman, but that SHOULDN'T be the reason why you listen to me.
On Jul 30, 2018 3:13 PM, "Chris Keating" chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com wrote:
Probably the best thing that can happen to this thread now is that it dies off, but I did just want to respond to this point by Pine, because it's really important:
- How, exactly, are white males unqualified to discuss the Friendly
Space Policy because of their/our identity as white males?
Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish) from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live in have a different experience of life to everyone else.
Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are much more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic minorities, LGBT people, and others who don't match that description.
So a conversation mainly conducted by white men about something like a Friendly Space Policy is mainly being conducted by people who do not experience the issue that the Friendly Space Policy is designed to address. Or if they do experience it, it's an unusual thing that's easy to laugh off.
Therefore this kind of conversation is much more likely to conclude that there isn't a real problem, or the policy isn't working, or other things are more important (e.g. being REALLY TRANSPARENT ABOUT EVERYTHING), or whatever has happened in a particular case isn't an issue. Which, predictably enough, is *exactly* what has happened in this conversation.
Regards,
Chris
_______________________________________________ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Hey all,
The Trust & Safety team appreciates and has carefully reviewed the input provided here, in person during the event, and off-list. As the wider Wikimedia movement and offline Wikimedia events grow and mature, so must support for those events. That support takes many forms, but includes friendly/safe space policies (FSP).
This is not a need surfaced by the Foundation or by any specific group, but a request raised by countless event attendees and organizers. Attendees, regardless of culture and background, want to be sure that there is some baseline standard of behavior they can expect and that they are empowered to set their own boundaries within reason - and that those will be respected. Event organizers want help to set up a process like this and to ensure that it is appropriately communicated and enforced.
This type of support is ongoing from both multiple Foundation departments and many affiliates. Trust & Safety has, for example, been working on a collection of trainings and visual materials for event organizers which were recently published on Meta-Wiki[1] and used at Wikimania. The feedback so far from event organizers and attendees has been good (and we welcome more feedback on Meta!), but it is very clear that there is more that can and should be done from all directions.
The event has surfaced a number of issues relating to event safety, including how best to handle incidents when they are discussed publicly, and clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues (which may touch on FSP needs but are generally longer term situations) which are often being dealt with simultaneously. The support role we take on at large events such as Wikimania, which are attended by hundreds of people and run by relatively small organizing teams, can blur this line.
These and other items raised strike us as opportunities for a more structured discussion of how to improve the existing policy and the implementation expectations it sets.
Therefore, we will be facilitating a public review of our friendly space policies early in Q3 (January-March 2019). The facilitated process will aim to have a reviewed version of the FSP ready for final conversations and refinements around the time of the Wikimedia Conference 2019 in March.
In addition, the Board asked the Community Engagement department in April to produce a report on FSP violations reported to us, which will happen twice-yearly. The first of these is due December 21 for violations during the first half of our fiscal year, and so that will also will be available for the consultation period and cover incidents tracked since July 1st in appropriate form.
Again, we recognize that this is a important topic to get right, and we hope that these steps will help to improve these processes within the Wikimedia movement going forward.
James
1, https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Keeping_events_safe
*James Alexander* Manager, Trust & Safety (Operations) Wikimedia Foundation
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 12:46 PM Béria Lima berialima@gmail.com wrote:
Since I didn't went to wikimania and other people were already making the points I wanted to make I tried to stay out of the conversation, but now I need to answer something.
***Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish) from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live in have a different experience of life to everyone else.
Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are much more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic minorities, LGBT people, and others who don't match that description.***
First of all, let's not forget that the incident that started all of this happened to a white straight man from Europe, and so far the only people who were "disqualified" from the conversation for their identity (and trus suffered harassment for something they CAN'T Change) were white males. So if we are going to town identity politics into this, I would say with the basis of this conversation that they are MORE likely to suffer discrimination not less.
Second, no. Every man (or woman) is an island. Each experience is different. Telling someone that all white people thinks the same is like saying <insert racist stereotype here> (I can give exemples but if I do this thread will devolve into a discussion of the stereotype and we done want that).
The best thing that come up of the suffragete and civil rights movements are that we should listen to the ideas not the person who has them, and we should uphold to that if equality is what we want.
PS. : Because I know people will say stuff about if, let's preempt all of it: for those who don't know, I'm Latina and a woman, but that SHOULDN'T be the reason why you listen to me.
On Jul 30, 2018 3:13 PM, "Chris Keating" chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com wrote:
Probably the best thing that can happen to this thread now is that it dies off, but I did just want to respond to this point by Pine, because it's really important:
- How, exactly, are white males unqualified to discuss the Friendly
Space Policy because of their/our identity as white males?
Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish) from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live in have a different experience of life to everyone else.
Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are much more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic minorities, LGBT people, and others who don't match that description.
So a conversation mainly conducted by white men about something like a Friendly Space Policy is mainly being conducted by people who do not experience the issue that the Friendly Space Policy is designed to address. Or if they do experience it, it's an unusual thing that's easy to laugh off.
Therefore this kind of conversation is much more likely to conclude that there isn't a real problem, or the policy isn't working, or other things are more important (e.g. being REALLY TRANSPARENT ABOUT EVERYTHING), or whatever has happened in a particular case isn't an issue. Which, predictably enough, is *exactly* what has happened in this conversation.
Regards,
Chris
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Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
Thanks for your attention to these issues.
I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead
of the local organizers
I'm not sure if saying that the Foundation is in charge of safe space at local events is accurate; I see it as a shared responsibility between the Foundation and local organizers, and participants as well.
As an organizer of several events in the US space, having the Foundation's involvement is valuable. As is clear from this thread, managing the safety of an event isn't an easy task, and so many different situations can arise. Organizers might not always fully have the needed experience and capacity to deal with these issues, and even if they do, it can be helpful to have the Foundation's personnel and prior experience.
There is also the importance of tracking incidents across spaces i.e. if an incident occurs at one event, being able to ensure the incident does not continue (or similar incidents do not occur) at future events is important - and the Foundation is in a good position to be able to facilitate that.
Thanks, Kevin Payravi SuperHamster
On Fri, Aug 3, 2018, 2:08 PM Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
Thanks for your attention to these issues.
Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
I agree on the tracking issue. A few years ago I heard about a situation in which a law enforcement agency was tracking complaints about its officers and learned through that system that one of its officers had a pattern of receiving "courtesy complaints", not bad enough to indicate that the officer should be fired, but problematic enough in a pattern to suggest that intervention from a supervisor was appropriate. The intervention that was attempted was to pair that officer with a more experienced officer to teach the younger officer about how to do his/her job with less friction. After that intervention, the pattern of complaints stopped.
Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 7:32 PM, Kevin Payravi kevinpayravi@gmail.com wrote:
I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events
instead of the local organizers
I'm not sure if saying that the Foundation is in charge of safe space at local events is accurate; I see it as a shared responsibility between the Foundation and local organizers, and participants as well.
As an organizer of several events in the US space, having the Foundation's involvement is valuable. As is clear from this thread, managing the safety of an event isn't an easy task, and so many different situations can arise. Organizers might not always fully have the needed experience and capacity to deal with these issues, and even if they do, it can be helpful to have the Foundation's personnel and prior experience.
There is also the importance of tracking incidents across spaces i.e. if an incident occurs at one event, being able to ensure the incident does not continue (or similar incidents do not occur) at future events is important
- and the Foundation is in a good position to be able to facilitate that.
Thanks, Kevin Payravi SuperHamster
On Fri, Aug 3, 2018, 2:08 PM Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
Thanks for your attention to these issues.
Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
--
Kevin Payravi W: http://www.kevinpayravi.com P: (330) 554 - 3397
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
This is reasonable, and could save lots of dramah. I am going to assume that the default position is “not offended by friendly contact”, but whichever is the most common position should be default in both cases, and suggest that the indicator should be visible all round.
Cheers,
Peter
From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: 03 August 2018 21:08 To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
Thanks for your attention to these issues.
Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient Image removed by sender.
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I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
Kudpung
On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
Thanks for your attention to these issues.
Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.
On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs cs@edubkk.org wrote:
I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
Kudpung
On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
Thanks for your attention to these issues.
Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
In which case, those people should have the decency to not present themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give their place over to someone else.
Kudpung
On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.
On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org> wrote: I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
Kudpung
On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com mailto:wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
Thanks for your attention to these issues.
Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
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-- GN. Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/ Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017. Order here https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8.
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This is going wildly of topic. But... The decency?
I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants.
Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs cs@edubkk.org wrote:
In which case, those people should have the decency to not present themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give their place over to someone else.
Kudpung
On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.
On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs cs@edubkk.org wrote:
I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
Kudpung
On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
Thanks for your attention to these issues.
Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- GN. Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order here https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8 .
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Indeed. Participants don't get the "no photo" lanyards because they are embarrassed to be part of the movement. There are real and important reasons participants desire not to be photographed. Some come from countries where their participation on the movement is cause enough for arrest. Others simply want to protect their identity online, whether it is because they are a minor (minors do attend Wikimania), have cause to be concerned for the privacy (prior harassment, stalking, etc.), or simply value their privacy (which is valid enough reason by itself).
As a global and inclusive movement, we work hard to accommodate all participants and this is all part of meeting that goal. Naturally these participants should avoid getting in the view of session recordings and whatnot, but being concious of who is photographed isn't a Herculean task and is a small ask to make to ensure a more welcoming, privacy-conscious event.
Kevin Payravi SuperHamster @ en.wiki
On Mon, Aug 6, 2018, 1:38 AM effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
This is going wildly of topic. But... The decency?
I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants.
Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs cs@edubkk.org wrote:
In which case, those people should have the decency to not present themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give their place over to someone else.
Kudpung
On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.
On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs cs@edubkk.org wrote:
I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
Kudpung
On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
Thanks for your attention to these issues.
Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- GN. Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order here https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8 .
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I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an event which of its very nature is much photographed, just need to be aware of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean task.
Kudpung
On 6 Aug 2018, at 13:45, Kevin Payravi kevinpayravi@gmail.com wrote:
Indeed. Participants don't get the "no photo" lanyards because they are embarrassed to be part of the movement. There are real and important reasons participants desire not to be photographed. Some come from countries where their participation on the movement is cause enough for arrest. Others simply want to protect their identity online, whether it is because they are a minor (minors do attend Wikimania), have cause to be concerned for the privacy (prior harassment, stalking, etc.), or simply value their privacy (which is valid enough reason by itself).
As a global and inclusive movement, we work hard to accommodate all participants and this is all part of meeting that goal. Naturally these participants should avoid getting in the view of session recordings and whatnot, but being concious of who is photographed isn't a Herculean task and is a small ask to make to ensure a more welcoming, privacy-conscious event.
Kevin Payravi SuperHamster @ en.wiki
On Mon, Aug 6, 2018, 1:38 AM effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com mailto:effeietsanders@gmail.com> wrote: This is going wildly of topic. But... The decency?
I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants.
Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org> wrote: In which case, those people should have the decency to not present themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give their place over to someone else.
Kudpung
On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com mailto:gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.
On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org> wrote: I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
Kudpung
On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com mailto:wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
Thanks for your attention to these issues.
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On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 1:04 PM CS cs@edubkk.org wrote:
I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an event which of its very nature is much photographed, just need to be aware of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean task.
Kudpung
On 6 Aug 2018, at 13:45, Kevin Payravi kevinpayravi@gmail.com wrote:
Indeed. Participants don't get the "no photo" lanyards because they are embarrassed to be part of the movement. There are real and important reasons participants desire not to be photographed. Some come from countries where their participation on the movement is cause enough for arrest. Others simply want to protect their identity online, whether it is because they are a minor (minors do attend Wikimania), have cause to be concerned for the privacy (prior harassment, stalking, etc.), or simply value their privacy (which is valid enough reason by itself).
As a global and inclusive movement, we work hard to accommodate all participants and this is all part of meeting that goal. Naturally these participants should avoid getting in the view of session recordings and whatnot, but being concious of who is photographed isn't a Herculean task and is a small ask to make to ensure a more welcoming, privacy-conscious event.
Kevin Payravi SuperHamster @ en.wiki
On Mon, Aug 6, 2018, 1:38 AM effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
This is going wildly of topic. But... The decency?
I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants.
Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs cs@edubkk.org wrote:
In which case, those people should have the decency to not present themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give their place over to someone else.
Kudpung
On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.
On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs cs@edubkk.org wrote:
I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career
- but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing
‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
Kudpung
On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
Thanks for your attention to these issues.
Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
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On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 2:34 PM CS cs@edubkk.org wrote:
I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an event which of its very nature is much photographed, just need to be aware of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean task.
I agree with this. Then there is this interpretation (which is new to me) that individuals who expressly consent to be photographed in groups at Wikimedia events can also expect their photos *not* be published online on either Commons or social media (without explaining their position to photographers). I don't think this ever used to be the case. Wikimania, by its very nature, is a social event and there was always a presumption of consent in the absence of express prohibition.
I do think now that there is a need for FSP to explicate norms for photography and publishing.
Le lun. 6 août 2018 à 09:34, CS cs@edubkk.org a écrit :
I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an event which of its very nature is much photographed, just need to be aware of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean task.
The goal of Wikimania is not to produce pictures of Wikimania, but to attend to conferences and share experiences, build new projects with others, etc. And Even with the OK photo lanyard, it does not mean people like to be photographed in ridiculous situation or when eating food, etc.
So this is not an herculean task, but it's up to the photographer to get it right, not the other way around.
Concerning photographs, it would be easier if they were generally limited to some kind of "official photographers" & group photographs during those events. I'm new to Wikimedia events, and only attended two, last WMCON in Berlin and Big Fat Brussels. In Brussels we were asked to not photograph the participants unless it was explicitly allowed (such as in group photographs), which I found quite reasonable - and, frankly, it was a relief.
As for touching, I'm a bit shy myself, and feel somewhat uneasy when someone hugs or touches me, but I would never ask someone to not do what generally is a genuine proof of affection & friendship, let alone denounce that person. When it's too close that it becomes embarassing, one can just ask the other to stay a bit farther. We just need to ask, to communicate - it doesn't seem that hard, that difficult. And doesn't seem at all the kind of thing that would grant a report to the Safety team, and even less some kind of reaction from them.
All the best,
Paulo
2018-08-06 10:21 GMT+01:00 Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info:
Le lun. 6 août 2018 à 09:34, CS cs@edubkk.org a écrit :
I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an event which of its very nature is much photographed, just need to be aware of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean task.
The goal of Wikimania is not to produce pictures of Wikimania, but to attend to conferences and share experiences, build new projects with others, etc. And Even with the OK photo lanyard, it does not mean people like to be photographed in ridiculous situation or when eating food, etc.
So this is not an herculean task, but it's up to the photographer to get it right, not the other way around.
-- Pierre-Selim
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
The policy can not be expected to wholly and solely ensure the safety of attendees, likewise stickers arent going to be readily identifiable in all circumstances. Then ask yourself the question what if someone who wears a dont photograph me lanyard is walking around photographing other people. There are more solutions to ensure a person isn't in a shot than preventing someone from taking the photograph.
Placing yourself in a position to prevent others participating is an issue, I can understand and respect that not everyone comes from a society where they have a benevolent government who encourages the dissemination of free knowledge. A safe space policy has to include practical considerations as part of that and we as end users need to also take a level of personal responsibility to ensure that everyone can be part of any event, which is why I raised the example.
On 6 August 2018 at 14:37, effe iets anders effeietsanders@gmail.com wrote:
This is going wildly of topic. But... The decency?
I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants.
Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs cs@edubkk.org wrote:
In which case, those people should have the decency to not present themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give their place over to someone else.
Kudpung
On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.
On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs cs@edubkk.org wrote:
I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
Kudpung
On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
Thanks for your attention to these issues.
Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
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Lodeweik,
I never mentioned nor hinted at second rank participants. If you think some are, that's your problem but don't misquote me. Thank you.
Kudpung
On 6 Aug 2018, at 14:17, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
The policy can not be expected to wholly and solely ensure the safety of attendees, likewise stickers arent going to be readily identifiable in all circumstances. Then ask yourself the question what if someone who wears a dont photograph me lanyard is walking around photographing other people. There are more solutions to ensure a person isn't in a shot than preventing someone from taking the photograph.
Placing yourself in a position to prevent others participating is an issue, I can understand and respect that not everyone comes from a society where they have a benevolent government who encourages the dissemination of free knowledge. A safe space policy has to include practical considerations as part of that and we as end users need to also take a level of personal responsibility to ensure that everyone can be part of any event, which is why I raised the example.
On 6 August 2018 at 14:37, effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com mailto:effeietsanders@gmail.com> wrote: This is going wildly of topic. But... The decency?
I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants.
Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction.
Lodewijk
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org> wrote: In which case, those people should have the decency to not present themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give their place over to someone else.
Kudpung
On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com mailto:gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.
On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <cs@edubkk.org mailto:cs@edubkk.org> wrote: I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
Kudpung
On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com mailto:wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
Thanks for your attention to these issues.
Pine ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
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On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 4:11 AM cs cs@edubkk.org wrote:
I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
No, they don't. This proposal would make Wikimania the first conference to outsource basic social awareness to a set of coloured spots stuck to the front of badges.
I can't say it would be a positive change, not least because people would start blaming harrassment on people not wearing the right coloured badge.
Chris
wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
