I personally contacted people from the Palestinian community of Israel and spread the word in the meetings I had with Palestinians from the West Bank. People showed some interest, some of them were not too acquainted with Wikipedia and asked questions, but apparently it didn't bring them to the registration page. Furthermore, I was responsible to the translation of the whole site into Arabic, including the landing page and registration page. This means that Wikimania in Haifa pops up in Arabic in Google or any other search engines. I also translated the press release about the event and I know it was sent to the major Arabic-language newspapers in the country.
That said, I am more than willing to contact any person in the West Bank in order to promote Palestinian participation. Many Palestinians have permanent entry permits into Israel, so they can reach Haifa easily, and there are many with Jerusalemite residency, who also don't need any bureaucratic arrangements. In case some bureaucracy is required, I do my best effort, as I have the necessary phone numbers at hand.
It is important to note that we encountered this year unprecedented attempts to discourage people, particularly Arab people, from coming to the event. I don't blame anyone, and I respect the freedom of speech of everybody, but it is very hard to promote an event among Arabic-speaking people, when there are FaceBook groups and blogs, some of them initiated by Wikipedians, calling upon Arab people not to attend, and even spreading false information.
Dror K
On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 12:44:22PM -0400, dror1975@icqmail.com wrote:
It is important to note that we encountered this year unprecedented attempts to discourage people, particularly Arab people, from coming to the event. I don't blame anyone, and I respect the freedom of speech of everybody, but it is very hard to promote an event among Arabic-speaking people, when there are FaceBook groups and blogs, some of them initiated by Wikipedians, calling upon Arab people not to attend, and even spreading false information.
This is something I would like to counter, if possible.
I think we need to be very specific when we talk about advice to Wikimedians in Arab countries re going to Haifa. Encouraging Wikimedians who live in countries where it would be illegal to visit Israel to break the laws of the country they live in and attend such a public event strikes me as inappropriate and unethical (lobbying to change a law is something I see as very different encouraging others to break a law).
Encouraging a boycott amongst Wikimedians who legally could go to Israel is a very different thing. We all have real life POVs, but we are supposed to leave them at the door when we logon to Wikimedia.
Of course if this involves offsite blogs and facebook then it drifts into that contentious area of offwiki activities that impact Wikipedia. For me that's fairly easy - when I'm WereSpielChequers I'm a wikimedian, I don't use that identity outside of Wikimedia and some of my closest friends don't know about this hobby of mine. But for others I can see things getting more blurred, especially if they edit in their own name. For wikimedians from cultures and countries where Israel's continued occupation of the lands it captured in 1967 is considered illegal and unethical, and the consequent boycott of Israel is a cultural norm, the decision to host Wikimania in Haifa must be making it very difficult to keep their on and off wiki positions from getting blurred.
WereSpielChequers
On 6 July 2011 04:51, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 12:44:22PM -0400, dror1975@icqmail.com wrote:
It is important to note that we encountered this year unprecedented attempts to discourage people, particularly Arab people, from coming to the event. I don't blame anyone, and I respect the freedom of speech of everybody, but it is very hard to promote an event among Arabic-speaking people, when there are FaceBook groups and blogs, some of them initiated by Wikipedians, calling upon Arab people not to attend, and even spreading false information.
This is something I would like to counter, if possible.
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Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On 07/06/2011 11:13 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote:
Encouraging Wikimedians who live in countries where it would be illegal to visit Israel to break the laws of the country they live in and attend such a public event strikes me as inappropriate and unethical (lobbying to change a law is something I see as very different encouraging others to break a law).
Slightly OT, but I depending on how you meant this, I disagree.
We should make it clear that it's their risk to break the law, but if they are willing to take that risk, I don't have any problem with that and in fact I think in that case we should help them any way we can. It's the Wikimedians who break the law we should protect, not unjust laws themselves. If a Wikimedian feels reasonably safe traveling to Israel, even though it might be illegal, he deserves our support.
Of course that doesn't mean that we should talk people into taking risks that they don't want to take (and if that's all you meant to say, I completely agree :))
--Tobias
Absolutely if someone does come from a country that has laws against their attending then we should do our best to keep them safe. I hope that my concerns turn out to be overcautious, but I do worry that we have some young, enthusiastic and occasionally naive editors, and we could have a fellow editor attend who for decades to come lives in fear of being exposed as the Wikimedian from his or her country who broke the law against going to Israel. And yes I've heard the argument that some of the countries that have laws against their citizens going to Israel don't currently do much to enforce those laws. But it is that sort of complacency and short termism that makes me genuinely fearful that we could have someone getting into serious trouble because they broke their country's law against attending an event in Israel.
There are fine lines between enabling people to break a law and encouraging or discouraging them from doing so.
But regardless of all that the decision was taken many months ago to hold Wikimania in Haifa. The time to debate that decision is long past, what we should concentrate on now is making the event a success and enabling more virtual participation, as in my view that is the biggest opportunity at this stage to increase participation. If people are going to come in person presumably they have already booked.
WSC
WereSpielChequers WSC
On 6 July 2011 11:09, church.of.emacs.ml church.of.emacs.ml@googlemail.com wrote:
On 07/06/2011 11:13 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote:
Encouraging Wikimedians who live in countries where it would be illegal to visit Israel to break the laws of the country they live in and attend such a public event strikes me as inappropriate and unethical (lobbying to change a law is something I see as very different encouraging others to break a law).
Slightly OT, but I depending on how you meant this, I disagree.
We should make it clear that it's their risk to break the law, but if they are willing to take that risk, I don't have any problem with that and in fact I think in that case we should help them any way we can. It's the Wikimedians who break the law we should protect, not unjust laws themselves. If a Wikimedian feels reasonably safe traveling to Israel, even though it might be illegal, he deserves our support.
Of course that doesn't mean that we should talk people into taking risks that they don't want to take (and if that's all you meant to say, I completely agree :))
--Tobias
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 01:11:09PM +0100, WereSpielChequers wrote:
Absolutely if someone does come from a country that has laws against their attending then we should do our best to keep them safe.
I don't think it's really against the law anywhere, and we haven't heard reports about there being any issues (I did ask explicitly).
The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going to be beneficial to all parties. :-)
For starters I think we need to figure out why palestinians aren't attending. If it's really a small sample, it might simply be because none happen to have time.
Could folks ask around on their home wikis ?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
Visiting Israel is against the law in several Islamic countries, this is covered in http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas#Visas_for_Middle_Eastern_Count...
And was discussed earlier this year at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa#Arab_countries
WSC
On 6 July 2011 12:33, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
On Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 01:11:09PM +0100, WereSpielChequers wrote:
Absolutely if someone does come from a country that has laws against their attending then we should do our best to keep them safe.
I don't think it's really against the law anywhere, and we haven't heard reports about there being any issues (I did ask explicitly).
The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going to be beneficial to all parties. :-)
For starters I think we need to figure out why palestinians aren't attending. If it's really a small sample, it might simply be because none happen to have time.
Could folks ask around on their home wikis ?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
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Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:33 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going to be beneficial to all parties. :-)
Strictly speaking, we don't actually know this to be a problem. There is no proof of the BDS campaign having dissuaded large numbers of potential attendees, especially from Arab countries. Any such potential attendees would have been dissuaded by other reasons, already discussed extensively on this and other lists, -- political climate in their countries, personal perception of attendance as implicit support of the Israeli government policy, etc..
By all means go on publicizing WM2011 among Arabic speakers. Once again, the local team has made it clear it is committed to helping anyone who would like to attend. But perhaps it's time to stop pretending it is entirely up to us whether Arabic speakers would be well-represented in this Wikimania or not?
Asaf
This is a contact I sent to this list almost a year ago. When I was asked to reach out to anyone and see if there is someone interested in coordinating with the WM11 team. I was told by my Palestinian-American friends that this university and its dean have campuses in East Jerusalem and the WB, making it easy for Israelis to contact. The dean's cv has his phone and email. It would be good if he is contacted to see if he is willing to help.
http://sari.alquds.edu/cv_sari.htm http://www.alquds.edu/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_University http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sari_Nusseibeh
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:33 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going to be beneficial to all parties. :-)
Strictly speaking, we don't actually know this to be a problem. There is no proof of the BDS campaign having dissuaded large numbers of potential attendees, especially from Arab countries. Any such potential attendees would have been dissuaded by other reasons, already discussed extensively on this and other lists, -- political climate in their countries, personal perception of attendance as implicit support of the Israeli government policy, etc..
By all means go on publicizing WM2011 among Arabic speakers. Once again, the local team has made it clear it is committed to helping anyone who would like to attend. But perhaps it's time to stop pretending it is entirely up to us whether Arabic speakers would be well-represented in this Wikimania or not?
Asaf
Asaf Bartov (personal opinion)
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Any updates on this? did you guys manage to contact him?
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:11 AM, Muhammad Yahia shipmaster@gmail.comwrote:
This is a contact I sent to this list almost a year ago. When I was asked to reach out to anyone and see if there is someone interested in coordinating with the WM11 team. I was told by my Palestinian-American friends that this university and its dean have campuses in East Jerusalem and the WB, making it easy for Israelis to contact. The dean's cv has his phone and email. It would be good if he is contacted to see if he is willing to help.
http://sari.alquds.edu/cv_sari.htm http://www.alquds.edu/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_University http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sari_Nusseibeh
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:33 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nlwrote:
The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going to be beneficial to all parties. :-)
Strictly speaking, we don't actually know this to be a problem. There is no proof of the BDS campaign having dissuaded large numbers of potential attendees, especially from Arab countries. Any such potential attendees would have been dissuaded by other reasons, already discussed extensively on this and other lists, -- political climate in their countries, personal perception of attendance as implicit support of the Israeli government policy, etc..
By all means go on publicizing WM2011 among Arabic speakers. Once again, the local team has made it clear it is committed to helping anyone who would like to attend. But perhaps it's time to stop pretending it is entirely up to us whether Arabic speakers would be well-represented in this Wikimania or not?
Asaf
Asaf Bartov (personal opinion)
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Best Regards, Muhammad Yahia
Dear Muhammad,
The short answer is that we never contacted Sari Nusseibeh, and we're not very satisfied with this situation.
This is for a mixture of reasons, some of them mundane (nobody really picked up this specific suggestion; we were all busy; we forgot about it; we all assumed someone else will do it) and some of them more to the point - first and foremost because he is perceived, at least in the Israeli public, as a downright political figure, having held formal positions positions on the Palestinian side.
Clearly he's perceived as a moderate political figure, but that is totally beside the point - we never meant to make Wikimania political (such as for example inviting politicians to speak before us), and Sari Nusseibeh is very much about politics.
Even his affiliation with moderate/leftist organizations on the Israeli side of the political spectrum make this a political move in the inner Israeli political perspective of the conference, and we don't want to make Wikimania political even in this narrow sense.
We are not opposed to people trying to contact him, and I hope someone like Dror Kamir on our part might still do it, but we are somewhat reserved about his specific suitability here, because of unmistakeable political involvement.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 10:11, Muhammad Yahia shipmaster@gmail.com wrote:
This is a contact I sent to this list almost a year ago. When I was asked to reach out to anyone and see if there is someone interested in coordinating with the WM11 team. I was told by my Palestinian-American friends that this university and its dean have campuses in East Jerusalem and the WB, making it easy for Israelis to contact. The dean's cv has his phone and email. It would be good if he is contacted to see if he is willing to help.
http://sari.alquds.edu/cv_sari.htm http://www.alquds.edu/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_University http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sari_Nusseibeh
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:33 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nlwrote:
The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going to be beneficial to all parties. :-)
Strictly speaking, we don't actually know this to be a problem. There is no proof of the BDS campaign having dissuaded large numbers of potential attendees, especially from Arab countries. Any such potential attendees would have been dissuaded by other reasons, already discussed extensively on this and other lists, -- political climate in their countries, personal perception of attendance as implicit support of the Israeli government policy, etc..
By all means go on publicizing WM2011 among Arabic speakers. Once again, the local team has made it clear it is committed to helping anyone who would like to attend. But perhaps it's time to stop pretending it is entirely up to us whether Arabic speakers would be well-represented in this Wikimania or not?
Asaf
Asaf Bartov (personal opinion)
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Best Regards, Muhammad Yahia
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
I seem to be missing the point here.
I thought you guys were going to contact him in his capacity as the dean of the Al-Quds university, exploring how to cooperate with him on spreading the news about Wikimania among students and helping those who want to attend. Something which you guys have said repeatedly you are open to only if someone can find you a contact? I don't see how his political affiliations factor into the equation here.
It is disappointing to me that you guys repeatedly said you were willing to do outreach into the palestinian territory but you lack contacts. And then when contacts are available, as hard as it was to get them, you don't consider even talking to them because of their political views. I doubt I can find you any contacts that are 'apolitical' given the situation between the Israelis and the Palestinians. And I am not even asking you to talk to someone with extreme views that might offend you, You yourself said he was a moderate.
I am sad to say that at this point I am inclined to think that the whole outreach into under-privileged territories effort was not genuinely considered.
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Muhammad,
The short answer is that we never contacted Sari Nusseibeh, and we're not very satisfied with this situation.
This is for a mixture of reasons, some of them mundane (nobody really picked up this specific suggestion; we were all busy; we forgot about it; we all assumed someone else will do it) and some of them more to the point - first and foremost because he is perceived, at least in the Israeli public, as a downright political figure, having held formal positions positions on the Palestinian side.
Clearly he's perceived as a moderate political figure, but that is totally beside the point - we never meant to make Wikimania political (such as for example inviting politicians to speak before us), and Sari Nusseibeh is very much about politics.
Even his affiliation with moderate/leftist organizations on the Israeli side of the political spectrum make this a political move in the inner Israeli political perspective of the conference, and we don't want to make Wikimania political even in this narrow sense.
We are not opposed to people trying to contact him, and I hope someone like Dror Kamir on our part might still do it, but we are somewhat reserved about his specific suitability here, because of unmistakeable political involvement.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 10:11, Muhammad Yahia shipmaster@gmail.com wrote:
This is a contact I sent to this list almost a year ago. When I was asked to reach out to anyone and see if there is someone interested in coordinating with the WM11 team. I was told by my Palestinian-American friends that this university and its dean have campuses in East Jerusalem and the WB, making it easy for Israelis to contact. The dean's cv has his phone and email. It would be good if he is contacted to see if he is willing to help.
http://sari.alquds.edu/cv_sari.htm http://www.alquds.edu/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_University http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sari_Nusseibeh
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Asaf Bartov abartov@wikimedia.orgwrote:
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:33 AM, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nlwrote:
The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going to be beneficial to all parties. :-)
Strictly speaking, we don't actually know this to be a problem. There is no proof of the BDS campaign having dissuaded large numbers of potential attendees, especially from Arab countries. Any such potential attendees would have been dissuaded by other reasons, already discussed extensively on this and other lists, -- political climate in their countries, personal perception of attendance as implicit support of the Israeli government policy, etc..
By all means go on publicizing WM2011 among Arabic speakers. Once again, the local team has made it clear it is committed to helping anyone who would like to attend. But perhaps it's time to stop pretending it is entirely up to us whether Arabic speakers would be well-represented in this Wikimania or not?
Asaf
Asaf Bartov (personal opinion)
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Best Regards, Muhammad Yahia
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 22:35, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
The short answer is that we never contacted Sari Nusseibeh, and we're not very satisfied with this situation.
This is for a mixture of reasons, some of them mundane (nobody really picked up this specific suggestion; we were all busy; we forgot about it; we all assumed someone else will do it) and some of them more to the point - first and foremost because he is perceived, at least in the Israeli public, as a downright political figure, having held formal positions positions on the Palestinian side.
Clearly he's perceived as a moderate political figure, but that is totally beside the point - we never meant to make Wikimania political (such as for example inviting politicians to speak before us), and Sari Nusseibeh is very much about politics.
Even his affiliation with moderate/leftist organizations on the Israeli side of the political spectrum make this a political move in the inner Israeli political perspective of the conference, and we don't want to make Wikimania political even in this narrow sense.
We are not opposed to people trying to contact him, and I hope someone like Dror Kamir on our part might still do it, but we are somewhat reserved about his specific suitability here, because of unmistakeable political involvement.
Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to us.
Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to us.
Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name from contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to help. I think there is a big chance he will be though.
On 7/13/2011 4:48 PM, Muhammad Yahia wrote:
Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to us.Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name from contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to help. I think there is a big chance he will be though.
Just an observation in case we do contact him - somebody should take a look at the Wikipedia articles about him to make sure they aren't problematic. Otherwise we might find that his willingness to help evaporates.
--Michael Snow
Again, I'm not sure everyone out there in the world is aware of and familiar with all the political intricacies of the local situation between Israelis and Palestinians and can judge what could easily workout and what would not.
Specifically, as I wrote, Sari Nusseibeh was both a kind of embarrassing oversight on our part (his name came up in some single thread of discussion a year ago, and was forgotten about), but also, in our view, not a very good suggestion either, for the reasons I explained (in short: he's a politician). I hope Dror Kamir, who speaks fluent Arabic, will try to engage him in the few weeks we have left, though I don't have very high expectations from this - his name was merely a suggestion, not based on any real promise. Let's see.
I'm happy to say we have a couple of young Arab Israeli attendees/volunteers, I hope this small number will expand. We also made our utmost to try to accommodate the very few seemingly-authentic requests for participation we got from the Middle East - from Saudi Arabia and from the Gaza Strip, but these people simply never got back to us after a certain point in time, despite repeated attempts to contact them.
I must say, again, that there's just so much we can do to increase participation from among a group of people whose size is totally unknown (apparently, there just aren't many active Wikimedians in the Middle East who would consider going to Wikimania - *any* Wikimania, and very few of them are Palestinian) and their willingness to participate is a mystery.
We also have a great confernece to prepare for those ~500 people out there who are going to attend, and we've been working very hard this past year to make sure that's exactly what we'll have. I hope we made a good job at that. Actually, I'm sure we did.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 02:48, Muhammad Yahia shipmaster@gmail.com wrote:
Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to us.
Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name from contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to help. I think there is a big chance he will be though. -- Best Regards, Muhammad Yahia
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Following up on my latest mail, I'm glad to let you know that we drafted a letter to Sari Nusseibeh and after final proofreading we hope to send it out, hopefully today. I'll let you know if something comes out of this.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 08:41, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
Again, I'm not sure everyone out there in the world is aware of and familiar with all the political intricacies of the local situation between Israelis and Palestinians and can judge what could easily workout and what would not.
Specifically, as I wrote, Sari Nusseibeh was both a kind of embarrassing oversight on our part (his name came up in some single thread of discussion a year ago, and was forgotten about), but also, in our view, not a very good suggestion either, for the reasons I explained (in short: he's a politician). I hope Dror Kamir, who speaks fluent Arabic, will try to engage him in the few weeks we have left, though I don't have very high expectations from this - his name was merely a suggestion, not based on any real promise. Let's see.
I'm happy to say we have a couple of young Arab Israeli attendees/volunteers, I hope this small number will expand. We also made our utmost to try to accommodate the very few seemingly-authentic requests for participation we got from the Middle East - from Saudi Arabia and from the Gaza Strip, but these people simply never got back to us after a certain point in time, despite repeated attempts to contact them.
I must say, again, that there's just so much we can do to increase participation from among a group of people whose size is totally unknown (apparently, there just aren't many active Wikimedians in the Middle East who would consider going to Wikimania - *any* Wikimania, and very few of them are Palestinian) and their willingness to participate is a mystery.
We also have a great confernece to prepare for those ~500 people out there who are going to attend, and we've been working very hard this past year to make sure that's exactly what we'll have. I hope we made a good job at that. Actually, I'm sure we did.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 02:48, Muhammad Yahia shipmaster@gmail.comwrote:
Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to us.
Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name from contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to help. I think there is a big chance he will be though. -- Best Regards, Muhammad Yahia
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Just as it is way too late to debate the venue, it is probably too late to make much difference to the physical attendance this year (maybe some locals with an hour or three's journey can be recruited in the last couple of weeks, and maybe some who expressed an interest but didn't firm up can be encouraged to come). But it is still a suitable time to promote this as a virtual conference and I'd like to suggest that we try and focus on that.
See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa#Virtual_confer... and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Not_The_Wikipedia_Weekly#Our_next_Sky...
I'm hoping to hold my presentation as a Skype chat, either simultaneously with Wikimania or otherwise.
WereSpielChequers
On 14 July 2011 08:10, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
Following up on my latest mail, I'm glad to let you know that we drafted a letter to Sari Nusseibeh and after final proofreading we hope to send it out, hopefully today. I'll let you know if something comes out of this.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 08:41, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
Again, I'm not sure everyone out there in the world is aware of and familiar with all the political intricacies of the local situation between Israelis and Palestinians and can judge what could easily workout and what would not.
Specifically, as I wrote, Sari Nusseibeh was both a kind of embarrassing oversight on our part (his name came up in some single thread of discussion a year ago, and was forgotten about), but also, in our view, not a very good suggestion either, for the reasons I explained (in short: he's a politician). I hope Dror Kamir, who speaks fluent Arabic, will try to engage him in the few weeks we have left, though I don't have very high expectations from this - his name was merely a suggestion, not based on any real promise. Let's see.
I'm happy to say we have a couple of young Arab Israeli attendees/volunteers, I hope this small number will expand. We also made our utmost to try to accommodate the very few seemingly-authentic requests for participation we got from the Middle East - from Saudi Arabia and from the Gaza Strip, but these people simply never got back to us after a certain point in time, despite repeated attempts to contact them.
I must say, again, that there's just so much we can do to increase participation from among a group of people whose size is totally unknown (apparently, there just aren't many active Wikimedians in the Middle East who would consider going to Wikimania - *any* Wikimania, and very few of them are Palestinian) and their willingness to participate is a mystery.
We also have a great confernece to prepare for those ~500 people out there who are going to attend, and we've been working very hard this past year to make sure that's exactly what we'll have. I hope we made a good job at that. Actually, I'm sure we did.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 02:48, Muhammad Yahia shipmaster@gmail.com wrote:
Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to us.
Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name from contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to help. I think there is a big chance he will be though. -- Best Regards, Muhammad Yahia
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-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
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Given the fact that we're less than a month away, and we're late enough if not too late, wouldn't a phone call be faster than a letter?
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 12:10 AM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
Following up on my latest mail, I'm glad to let you know that we drafted a letter to Sari Nusseibeh and after final proofreading we hope to send it out, hopefully today. I'll let you know if something comes out of this.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 08:41, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
Again, I'm not sure everyone out there in the world is aware of and familiar with all the political intricacies of the local situation between Israelis and Palestinians and can judge what could easily workout and what would not.
Specifically, as I wrote, Sari Nusseibeh was both a kind of embarrassing oversight on our part (his name came up in some single thread of discussion a year ago, and was forgotten about), but also, in our view, not a very good suggestion either, for the reasons I explained (in short: he's a politician). I hope Dror Kamir, who speaks fluent Arabic, will try to engage him in the few weeks we have left, though I don't have very high expectations from this - his name was merely a suggestion, not based on any real promise. Let's see.
I'm happy to say we have a couple of young Arab Israeli attendees/volunteers, I hope this small number will expand. We also made our utmost to try to accommodate the very few seemingly-authentic requests for participation we got from the Middle East - from Saudi Arabia and from the Gaza Strip, but these people simply never got back to us after a certain point in time, despite repeated attempts to contact them.
I must say, again, that there's just so much we can do to increase participation from among a group of people whose size is totally unknown (apparently, there just aren't many active Wikimedians in the Middle East who would consider going to Wikimania - *any* Wikimania, and very few of them are Palestinian) and their willingness to participate is a mystery.
We also have a great confernece to prepare for those ~500 people out there who are going to attend, and we've been working very hard this past year to make sure that's exactly what we'll have. I hope we made a good job at that. Actually, I'm sure we did.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 02:48, Muhammad Yahia shipmaster@gmail.comwrote:
Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to us.
Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name from contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to help. I think there is a big chance he will be though. -- Best Regards, Muhammad Yahia
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
It's an e-mail, not a paper letter, so the speed is the same. I'm not sure Mr. Nusseibeh is the kind of person you can really simply call up on the phone either.
Harel
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 18:50, Muhammad Yahia shipmaster@gmail.com wrote:
Given the fact that we're less than a month away, and we're late enough if not too late, wouldn't a phone call be faster than a letter?
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 12:10 AM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
Following up on my latest mail, I'm glad to let you know that we drafted a letter to Sari Nusseibeh and after final proofreading we hope to send it out, hopefully today. I'll let you know if something comes out of this.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 08:41, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
Again, I'm not sure everyone out there in the world is aware of and familiar with all the political intricacies of the local situation between Israelis and Palestinians and can judge what could easily workout and what would not.
Specifically, as I wrote, Sari Nusseibeh was both a kind of embarrassing oversight on our part (his name came up in some single thread of discussion a year ago, and was forgotten about), but also, in our view, not a very good suggestion either, for the reasons I explained (in short: he's a politician). I hope Dror Kamir, who speaks fluent Arabic, will try to engage him in the few weeks we have left, though I don't have very high expectations from this - his name was merely a suggestion, not based on any real promise. Let's see.
I'm happy to say we have a couple of young Arab Israeli attendees/volunteers, I hope this small number will expand. We also made our utmost to try to accommodate the very few seemingly-authentic requests for participation we got from the Middle East - from Saudi Arabia and from the Gaza Strip, but these people simply never got back to us after a certain point in time, despite repeated attempts to contact them.
I must say, again, that there's just so much we can do to increase participation from among a group of people whose size is totally unknown (apparently, there just aren't many active Wikimedians in the Middle East who would consider going to Wikimania - *any* Wikimania, and very few of them are Palestinian) and their willingness to participate is a mystery.
We also have a great confernece to prepare for those ~500 people out there who are going to attend, and we've been working very hard this past year to make sure that's exactly what we'll have. I hope we made a good job at that. Actually, I'm sure we did.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 02:48, Muhammad Yahia shipmaster@gmail.comwrote:
Harel, this Wikimania is anyway highly influenced by politics, no matter what we want; which includes this thread. If Sari Nusseibeh is willing to help, you should take that help. I am sure that he is a reasonable person, who would try to avoid making possible problems to us.
Small Disclaimer here: I don't know the guy personally, I got his name from contacts of contacts. Thus I can't vouch for his willingness to help. I think there is a big chance he will be though. -- Best Regards, Muhammad Yahia
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
-- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
-- Best Regards, Muhammad Yahia
Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 09:10, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
Following up on my latest mail, I'm glad to let you know that we drafted a letter to Sari Nusseibeh and after final proofreading we hope to send it out, hopefully today. I'll let you know if something comes out of this.
Great :)
On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 08:41:16AM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
I must say, again, that there's just so much we can do to increase participation from among a group of people whose size is totally unknown (apparently, there just aren't many active Wikimedians in the Middle East who would consider going to Wikimania - *any* Wikimania, and very few of them are Palestinian) and their willingness to participate is a mystery.
Heh, so currently it is
place_of_residence= (world AND NOT middle_east) OR (israel AND NOT (west_bank OR gaza))
Correct? Interesting. <scratches head>
Are we getting our famous Steward-From-Iran this year, at least?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 07:55:51PM +0200, Kim Bruning wrote:
place_of_residence= (world AND NOT middle_east) OR (israel AND NOT (west_bank OR gaza))
For people who have trouble deciphering SQL-ish language ( small letters = sets AND = Intersection OR = Union AND NOT=Intersection )
For people who Just Need A Picture, you can also express this as a venn-like diagram:
http://bruning.xs4all.nl/~kim/People_who_are_coming_to_wikimania.svg
is this indeed correct?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
As to whether this is correct or not, we'll know in a couple of weeks. I think it's not 100% correct (read my previous mails, and some things still brewing too), and I think it's mainly unfair to us organizers.
You could have drawn the same drawing for previous years and the Middle East part would not look much different at all.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 21:22, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 07:55:51PM +0200, Kim Bruning wrote:
place_of_residence= (world AND NOT middle_east) OR (israel AND NOT (west_bank OR gaza))
For people who have trouble deciphering SQL-ish language ( small letters = sets AND = Intersection OR = Union AND NOT=Intersection )
For people who Just Need A Picture, you can also express this as a venn-like diagram:
http://bruning.xs4all.nl/~kim/People_who_are_coming_to_wikimania.svg
is this indeed correct?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
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In fact, it would be really interesting to see just how many people from the Arab Middle East attended any previous Wikimania. For 2008, please check how many attendees came from countries that were not Egypt.
I attended Wikimania in 2007 (Taipei) and 2010 (Gdansk) and I recall just a handful of attendees from Arab countries in each.
I think those numbers will be teaching, and will put this discussion in the true perspective it deserves.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 22:31, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
As to whether this is correct or not, we'll know in a couple of weeks. I think it's not 100% correct (read my previous mails, and some things still brewing too), and I think it's mainly unfair to us organizers.
You could have drawn the same drawing for previous years and the Middle East part would not look much different at all.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 21:22, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 07:55:51PM +0200, Kim Bruning wrote:
place_of_residence= (world AND NOT middle_east) OR (israel AND NOT (west_bank OR gaza))
For people who have trouble deciphering SQL-ish language ( small letters = sets AND = Intersection OR = Union AND NOT=Intersection )
For people who Just Need A Picture, you can also express this as a venn-like diagram:
http://bruning.xs4all.nl/~kim/People_who_are_coming_to_wikimania.svg
is this indeed correct?
sincerely, Kim Bruning
-- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
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Naturally, it's not my intention to be unfair to the organizers. I know you're doing your best. I do want to know what I'm getting into when I go to speak somewhere though!
(in case you're wondering:"Everything you know about Wikipedia is wrong". Saturday, 09:00, together with mindspillage, ironholds, and fluffernutter . It's going to be fun! Are you coming? :-) )
I think our main conclusion at the end of this will be that we need to do more outreach in arab, north african, and west-asian countries.
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 10:39:59PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
In fact, it would be really interesting to see just how many people from the Arab Middle East attended any previous Wikimania. For 2008, please check how many attendees came from countries that were not Egypt.
That is definitely a good idea. I'd try to generate statistics and graphs, if someone can help me dig up existing attendence figures/records.
(I'd sign a lightweight NDA if required to maintain attendee confidentiality.)
(Note that the content and format of the attendee databases will determine whether it is viable to generate said statistics in a reasonable amount of time.)
I attended Wikimania in 2007 (Taipei) and 2010 (Gdansk) and I recall just a handful of attendees from Arab countries in each.
This is true by my recollection.
I think those numbers will be teaching, and will put this discussion in the true perspective it deserves.
Well, I think we've learned that we need to do more outreach in arab countries, and that possibly we need something other than wikimania.
This does not make wikimania useless however; wikimania serves a lot of other functions besides outreach, of course!
sincerely, Kim Bruning
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 10:39:59PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
I think those numbers will be teaching, and will put this discussion in the true perspective it deserves.
Speaking of putting things in perspective, I've been told off-channel that there have been several previous debates on this topic.
For the record, could someone link me to (some of) these old debates? It's probably more efficient for me to RTFArchive and come back with any remaining questions.
sincerely, Kim Bruning
Most of them are in the archive of wikimania-l, some in the archive of foundation-l, and even fewer in the archive of wikimania-planning-l. The first two are publicly available. Simple Ctrl-Fing of the threads since about June 2010 will find most of the stuff if not all of it.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 17:29, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 10:39:59PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
I think those numbers will be teaching, and will put this discussion in
the
true perspective it deserves.
Speaking of putting things in perspective, I've been told off-channel that there have been several previous debates on this topic.
For the record, could someone link me to (some of) these old debates? It's probably more efficient for me to RTFArchive and come back with any remaining questions.
sincerely, Kim Bruning -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
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Just for the record, in WM08,
there were around 10 people from Bahrain, UAE, Jordan, Syria, Alegria and a speaker from Lebanon in addition to 3 Israelis... I don't think that was bad for a usually under-represented region.
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Harel Cain harel.cain@gmail.com wrote:
Most of them are in the archive of wikimania-l, some in the archive of foundation-l, and even fewer in the archive of wikimania-planning-l. The first two are publicly available. Simple Ctrl-Fing of the threads since about June 2010 will find most of the stuff if not all of it.
Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 local team
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 17:29, Kim Bruning kim@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote:
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 10:39:59PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
I think those numbers will be teaching, and will put this discussion in
the
true perspective it deserves.
Speaking of putting things in perspective, I've been told off-channel that there have been several previous debates on this topic.
For the record, could someone link me to (some of) these old debates? It's probably more efficient for me to RTFArchive and come back with any remaining questions.
sincerely, Kim Bruning -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72
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Wikimania 2010:
Syria (1), Tunisia (1), Egypt (3), Israel (5), Jordan (1), Saudi Arabia (2)
//Marcin
wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org