Hey folks :)
Charlie has been working on concepts for making it possible to edit Wikidata from Wikipedia and other wikis. This was her bachelor thesis. She has now published it: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Facilitating_the_use_of_Wikidata_in_... I am very happy she put a lot of thought and work into figuring out all the complexities of the topic and how to make this understandable for editors. We still have more work to do on the concepts and then actually have to implement it. Comments welcome.
Cheers Lydia
Page 21, moving to manual import of statements. I would really like to see the analysis written out that ends in this conclusion. It is very tempting, but the idea don't scale.
We have now about 5-10 000 articles per active user. Those users have a huge backlog of missing references. If they shall manage statements in addition to their current backlog, then they will simply be overwhelmed.
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Lydia Pintscher < Lydia.Pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
Hey folks :)
Charlie has been working on concepts for making it possible to edit Wikidata from Wikipedia and other wikis. This was her bachelor thesis. She has now published it: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Facilitating_the_use_of_Wikidata_in_... I am very happy she put a lot of thought and work into figuring out all the complexities of the topic and how to make this understandable for editors. We still have more work to do on the concepts and then actually have to implement it. Comments welcome.
Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Hoi, The notion that we have so many editors who are engaged in adding sources is based on what? IMHO it is wishful thinking that sources matters that much to most editors. When you say that they cannot manage statements as well as sources you miss several important points.
- It is more fun to add statements than sources, statements are useful in other languages. - statements are used in info boxes so they are part of the article that is written - statements help build a concept cloud around a subject - sources as part of a "library base" or as part of Wikidata make sense because this does add value [1] - sources on their own are only supportive to an article, they are a dead end
Manually importing of statements is done extensively, I blogged this week about Mrs Nataliya Kobrynska [2] and as a consequence I imported over 1000 statements.Manual import is an existing practice and consequently it is not part of the paper. It is however possible to do away with much of the importing when the content of lists and categories are based on statements .. Much of the basics for such a thing is in place. It will likely change the practices in all Wikipedias when we go that route.
If there is one problem with this vision, it is that it is too Wikipedia centric. The problem is not Wikipedia an sich but the problem is that there is not one Wikipedia but there are so many of them and they all have the notion that they know best. At that they are wrong on principle. A good example are subjects that are "local", this is where the local language typically has an advantage over languages like German, French or English. I am currently adding info on legislative representatives from Kerala and they are much better described in Malayalam [3]. I am however adding info from English..
In conclusion, I understand your point. However, when you look at it from another point of view it is not what will move us on to higher quality for our projects.
Thanks
GerardM
[1] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2016/05/wikipedia-citations-librarybase.h...
[2] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2016/05/facebook-nataliya-kobrynska.html
[3] http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2016/05/wikidata-kerala-mla-constituencie...
On 30 May 2016 at 23:43, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Page 21, moving to manual import of statements. I would really like to see the analysis written out that ends in this conclusion. It is very tempting, but the idea don't scale.
We have now about 5-10 000 articles per active user. Those users have a huge backlog of missing references. If they shall manage statements in addition to their current backlog, then they will simply be overwhelmed.
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Lydia Pintscher < Lydia.Pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
Hey folks :)
Charlie has been working on concepts for making it possible to edit Wikidata from Wikipedia and other wikis. This was her bachelor thesis. She has now published it: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Facilitating_the_use_of_Wikidata_in_... I am very happy she put a lot of thought and work into figuring out all the complexities of the topic and how to make this understandable for editors. We still have more work to do on the concepts and then actually have to implement it. Comments welcome.
Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Given Lydias post I wonder if it is to be expected that editors on Wikipedia shall manually import statements from Wikidata, as this is what can be read out of this thesis. This will create a huge backlog of work on all Wikipedias, and I can't see how we possibly can do this. For the moment we have a huge backlog on sources on nowiki, and adding a lot of additional manual work will not go very well with the community.
What is the plan, can Lydia or some else please clarify?
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 11:43 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Page 21, moving to manual import of statements. I would really like to see the analysis written out that ends in this conclusion. It is very tempting, but the idea don't scale.
We have now about 5-10 000 articles per active user. Those users have a huge backlog of missing references. If they shall manage statements in addition to their current backlog, then they will simply be overwhelmed.
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Lydia Pintscher < Lydia.Pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
Hey folks :)
Charlie has been working on concepts for making it possible to edit Wikidata from Wikipedia and other wikis. This was her bachelor thesis. She has now published it: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Facilitating_the_use_of_Wikidata_in_... I am very happy she put a lot of thought and work into figuring out all the complexities of the topic and how to make this understandable for editors. We still have more work to do on the concepts and then actually have to implement it. Comments welcome.
Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
An aditional note.
The problem is that a community can handle a quite specific workload. Some of that goes into producing new articles, some goes into patrolling. Some goes into maintenance of existing articles. When a project has to much dynamic content (and it will always have some dynamic content) they start to move into a maintenance mode, because they are swamped by the dynamic content.
A typical indication that something is going on is that the patrol log starts to overflow. Another is that the production of new articles starts to drop, but that will drop anyhow because of addition of new content to old articles.[1] To get good numbers we need the factor "new content"/"edited old content". When that number start to drop then we know that the community starts to run into problems.
If we had unlimited sources, then we could add more workload, but we don't have unlimited sources (aka manhours). The community is limited. Adding new work to the existing will thus not scale very well, if at all. We need ways to cope with the existing workload, not additional work.
In short; nice thesis, but even if it can be _implemented_ it will not scale on Wikipedia.
And of course, someone will surly claim that we could just just get some more members in the community. Yes, sure, some of us has been working on that for several years.[2]
[1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stats-nowiki-2016-05-07-new-articles... [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stats-nowiki-2016-05-07-new-users.pn...
On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 11:55 AM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Given Lydias post I wonder if it is to be expected that editors on Wikipedia shall manually import statements from Wikidata, as this is what can be read out of this thesis. This will create a huge backlog of work on all Wikipedias, and I can't see how we possibly can do this. For the moment we have a huge backlog on sources on nowiki, and adding a lot of additional manual work will not go very well with the community.
What is the plan, can Lydia or some else please clarify?
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 11:43 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Page 21, moving to manual import of statements. I would really like to see the analysis written out that ends in this conclusion. It is very tempting, but the idea don't scale.
We have now about 5-10 000 articles per active user. Those users have a huge backlog of missing references. If they shall manage statements in addition to their current backlog, then they will simply be overwhelmed.
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Lydia Pintscher < Lydia.Pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
Hey folks :)
Charlie has been working on concepts for making it possible to edit Wikidata from Wikipedia and other wikis. This was her bachelor thesis. She has now published it: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Facilitating_the_use_of_Wikidata_in_... I am very happy she put a lot of thought and work into figuring out all the complexities of the topic and how to make this understandable for editors. We still have more work to do on the concepts and then actually have to implement it. Comments welcome.
Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 12:16 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
An aditional note.
The problem is that a community can handle a quite specific workload. Some of that goes into producing new articles, some goes into patrolling. Some goes into maintenance of existing articles. When a project has to much dynamic content (and it will always have some dynamic content) they start to move into a maintenance mode, because they are swamped by the dynamic content.
A typical indication that something is going on is that the patrol log starts to overflow. Another is that the production of new articles starts to drop, but that will drop anyhow because of addition of new content to old articles.[1] To get good numbers we need the factor "new content"/"edited old content". When that number start to drop then we know that the community starts to run into problems.
Agreed.
If we had unlimited sources, then we could add more workload, but we don't have unlimited sources (aka manhours). The community is limited. Adding new work to the existing will thus not scale very well, if at all. We need ways to cope with the existing workload, not additional work.
In short; nice thesis, but even if it can be _implemented_ it will not scale on Wikipedia.
And of course, someone will surly claim that we could just just get some more members in the community. Yes, sure, some of us has been working on that for several years.[2]
I think you are misreading some of the text. One of the core ideas of Wikidata is to share workload across Wikipedias. The concept Charlie worked on is a step to help more with that.
Cheers Lydia
Hoi, To be honest, I think that it is important to patrol changes in the changed data. However, accepting changes manually on all Wikipedias does not scale. You are completely right in this. When changes occur in Wikidata, it will result in changes everywhere in the same way as changes at Commons.
When a change at Wikidata has been "patrolled", it is imho up to a Wikipedia to accept patrolled changes. In this way changes only need to be accepted once for all our projects. When they want to patrol locally as well, it is their choice as are the consequences of the extra work load and the negligible benefit of this effort. The problem I see is that the people who are most likely to insist on more work are not the ones who will be do this work. Thanks, GerardM
On 4 June 2016 at 11:55, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Given Lydias post I wonder if it is to be expected that editors on Wikipedia shall manually import statements from Wikidata, as this is what can be read out of this thesis. This will create a huge backlog of work on all Wikipedias, and I can't see how we possibly can do this. For the moment we have a huge backlog on sources on nowiki, and adding a lot of additional manual work will not go very well with the community.
What is the plan, can Lydia or some else please clarify?
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 11:43 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Page 21, moving to manual import of statements. I would really like to see the analysis written out that ends in this conclusion. It is very tempting, but the idea don't scale.
We have now about 5-10 000 articles per active user. Those users have a huge backlog of missing references. If they shall manage statements in addition to their current backlog, then they will simply be overwhelmed.
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Lydia Pintscher < Lydia.Pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
Hey folks :)
Charlie has been working on concepts for making it possible to edit Wikidata from Wikipedia and other wikis. This was her bachelor thesis. She has now published it: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Facilitating_the_use_of_Wikidata_in_... I am very happy she put a lot of thought and work into figuring out all the complexities of the topic and how to make this understandable for editors. We still have more work to do on the concepts and then actually have to implement it. Comments welcome.
Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Charlie, Lydia, Lucie, and Wikdiatans,
It's so great to have two examples of undergraduate theses that are both Wikidata and computer science focused. (CC WUaS seeks to require an undergraduate thesis in all countries' main languages for free best STEM-centric CC OCW degrees, accrediting on CC MIT OCW in 7 languages and CC Yale OYC to begin). CC WUaS seeks to develop CC MIT OCW much much further in CC Wikdiata/Wikibase and with AI, machine learning and machine translation - and these theses are the first! :)
Thank you for writing (and focusing) these! Scott https://twitter.com/WorldUnivAndSch
On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 4:06 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, To be honest, I think that it is important to patrol changes in the changed data. However, accepting changes manually on all Wikipedias does not scale. You are completely right in this. When changes occur in Wikidata, it will result in changes everywhere in the same way as changes at Commons.
When a change at Wikidata has been "patrolled", it is imho up to a Wikipedia to accept patrolled changes. In this way changes only need to be accepted once for all our projects. When they want to patrol locally as well, it is their choice as are the consequences of the extra work load and the negligible benefit of this effort. The problem I see is that the people who are most likely to insist on more work are not the ones who will be do this work. Thanks, GerardM
On 4 June 2016 at 11:55, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Given Lydias post I wonder if it is to be expected that editors on Wikipedia shall manually import statements from Wikidata, as this is what can be read out of this thesis. This will create a huge backlog of work on all Wikipedias, and I can't see how we possibly can do this. For the moment we have a huge backlog on sources on nowiki, and adding a lot of additional manual work will not go very well with the community.
What is the plan, can Lydia or some else please clarify?
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 11:43 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Page 21, moving to manual import of statements. I would really like to see the analysis written out that ends in this conclusion. It is very tempting, but the idea don't scale.
We have now about 5-10 000 articles per active user. Those users have a huge backlog of missing references. If they shall manage statements in addition to their current backlog, then they will simply be overwhelmed.
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 6:05 PM, Lydia Pintscher < Lydia.Pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
Hey folks :)
Charlie has been working on concepts for making it possible to edit Wikidata from Wikipedia and other wikis. This was her bachelor thesis. She has now published it: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Facilitating_the_use_of_Wikidata_in_... I am very happy she put a lot of thought and work into figuring out all the complexities of the topic and how to make this understandable for editors. We still have more work to do on the concepts and then actually have to implement it. Comments welcome.
Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
Wikidata mailing list Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, To be honest, I think that it is important to patrol changes in the changed data. However, accepting changes manually on all Wikipedias does not scale. You are completely right in this. When changes occur in Wikidata, it will result in changes everywhere in the same way as changes at Commons.
When a change at Wikidata has been "patrolled", it is imho up to a Wikipedia to accept patrolled changes. In this way changes only need to be accepted once for all our projects. When they want to patrol locally as well, it is their choice as are the consequences of the extra work load and the negligible benefit of this effort. The problem I see is that the people who are most likely to insist on more work are not the ones who will be do this work.
Patrolling changes is not what is suggested at all.
Cheers Lydia
Il 06 giu 2016 5:29 PM, "Lydia Pintscher" lydia.pintscher@wikimedia.de ha scritto:
When a change at Wikidata has been "patrolled", it is imho up to a
Wikipedia
to accept patrolled changes. In this way changes only need to be
accepted
once for all our projects. When they want to patrol locally as well, it
is
their choice as are the consequences of the extra work load and the negligible benefit of this effort. The problem I see is that the people
who
are most likely to insist on more work are not the ones who will be do
this
work.
Patrolling changes is not what is suggested at all.
If we get to access data from reliable source through identifiers and establish a good data exchange workflow, patrolling wouldn't be needed.
I'm more concerned about John's opinions, since I agree with him. We need to connect the "more help wanted" issue with the "data exchange with reliable sources" issue IMHO.
L.
On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 11:55 AM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Given Lydias post I wonder if it is to be expected that editors on Wikipedia shall manually import statements from Wikidata, as this is what can be read out of this thesis. This will create a huge backlog of work on all Wikipedias, and I can't see how we possibly can do this. For the moment we have a huge backlog on sources on nowiki, and adding a lot of additional manual work will not go very well with the community.
What is the plan, can Lydia or some else please clarify?
It is a way to deal with one of the many ways Wikipedias currently make use of Wikidata's data. We need to accommodate them. It is not a judgement call if any of them are best. So no they are not expected to do that for everything by hand.
Cheers Lydia
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 11:43 PM, John Erling Blad jeblad@gmail.com wrote:
Page 21, moving to manual import of statements. I would really like to see the analysis written out that ends in this conclusion. It is very tempting, but the idea don't scale.
We have now about 5-10 000 articles per active user. Those users have a huge backlog of missing references. If they shall manage statements in addition to their current backlog, then they will simply be overwhelmed.
I am not sure what you mean. Can you quote from the thesis what you are referring to please?
Cheers Lydia
This is a wishlist item for me -- to have an editable form to input Wikidata-friendly data while on Wikipedia -- so I am very happy to see this analysis, especially as it seems to focus on usability and end-user perspectives.
I hope equal weight is given to both the Visual Editor and the Wiki Markup one. I also hope that the interface form is similar in behavior and style to the current forms (i.e., RefToolbar's Cite forms) -- as it would be a shame to reinvent the wheel, and would encourage onboarding of the interface if it looked like something editors have seen.
While I have an ongoing obsession with citations and machine-readable pipe-heavy templates like the Infobox, I would suspect that Wikipedia editors are very amenable to and recognize the importance of citations and supporting references for data on Wikipedia. That could and ideally should translate to similar approaches on Wikidata. So when I put a birth date on a biographical entry on Wikipedia, I need to provide a supporting citation. The same should be true for Wikidata. Unless I am missing something here.
So although the scale might be overwhelming, I would like to see every element on Wikidata supported by a citation.
Very exciting work. Any ideas on the timeframe for potential implementation, Lydia?
Best,
- Erika
*Erika Herzog* Wikipedia *User:BrillLyle* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BrillLyle Secretary, Wikimedia NYC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Lydia Pintscher < Lydia.Pintscher@wikimedia.de> wrote:
Hey folks :)
Charlie has been working on concepts for making it possible to edit Wikidata from Wikipedia and other wikis. This was her bachelor thesis. She has now published it: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Facilitating_the_use_of_Wikidata_in_... I am very happy she put a lot of thought and work into figuring out all the complexities of the topic and how to make this understandable for editors. We still have more work to do on the concepts and then actually have to implement it. Comments welcome.
Cheers Lydia
On Wed, Jun 8, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Brill Lyle wp.brilllyle@gmail.com wrote:
Very exciting work. Any ideas on the timeframe for potential implementation, Lydia?
Unfortunately not yet. Charlie will keep working on refining the concept as the next step.
Cheers Lydia