Links to lists in major news outlets (NYT, BBC, LA TImes, Toronto Star, etc.) along with commentary on gender bias in obits: http://forward.com/sisterhood/330631/for-women-gender-bias-continues-even-in...
The three women listed in the article do have WP articles. It would take some digging--paywalls, registration, etc,--to see if any of the other women do not yet have articles.
some obits are not behind paywall. a reference to do list would make good work.
maybe we could get Mietchen or Magnus to make an automated list article / category "list of people with obituaries"
cheers
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Links to lists in major news outlets (NYT, BBC, LA TImes, Toronto Star, etc.) along with commentary on gender bias in obits:
http://forward.com/sisterhood/330631/for-women-gender-bias-continues-even-in...
The three women listed in the article do have WP articles. It would take some digging--paywalls, registration, etc,--to see if any of the other women do not yet have articles.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
At least in the USA, we have to be cautious about "what is an obituary." Newspapers also run "death notices" which (both in print and online) look much like obituaries, but are actually paid advertisements. I'm not even certain that the terminology ("obituary"=editorial, "death notice"=paid ad) is consistent across news outlets, I'm just reflecting what I learned from the specific papers I dealt with after my dad died.
Any "systemic bias" in death notices would therefore consider a much bigger/more complex system than simply the editorial powers-that-be. You'd have to also consider what drives families to pay for death notices for some people more than others.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 6:07 PM, J Hayes slowking4@gmail.com wrote:
some obits are not behind paywall. a reference to do list would make good work.
maybe we could get Mietchen or Magnus to make an automated list article / category "list of people with obituaries"
cheers
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Links to lists in major news outlets (NYT, BBC, LA TImes, Toronto Star, etc.) along with commentary on gender bias in obits:
http://forward.com/sisterhood/330631/for-women-gender-bias-continues-even-in...
The three women listed in the article do have WP articles. It would take some digging--paywalls, registration, etc,--to see if any of the other women do not yet have articles.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
pete, the article linked is listing NYTimes, WashPost, and LATimes. not the paid notices there seems to be no process to systematically incorporate these, even when they provide strong support for notability.
cheers
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 9:15 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
At least in the USA, we have to be cautious about "what is an obituary." Newspapers also run "death notices" which (both in print and online) look much like obituaries, but are actually paid advertisements. I'm not even certain that the terminology ("obituary"=editorial, "death notice"=paid ad) is consistent across news outlets, I'm just reflecting what I learned from the specific papers I dealt with after my dad died.
Any "systemic bias" in death notices would therefore consider a much bigger/more complex system than simply the editorial powers-that-be. You'd have to also consider what drives families to pay for death notices for some people more than others.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 6:07 PM, J Hayes slowking4@gmail.com wrote:
some obits are not behind paywall. a reference to do list would make good work.
maybe we could get Mietchen or Magnus to make an automated list article / category "list of people with obituaries"
cheers
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Links to lists in major news outlets (NYT, BBC, LA TImes, Toronto Star, etc.) along with commentary on gender bias in obits:
http://forward.com/sisterhood/330631/for-women-gender-bias-continues-even-in...
The three women listed in the article do have WP articles. It would take some digging--paywalls, registration, etc,--to see if any of the other women do not yet have articles.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Jim,
Sorry, I should have been clearer -- I didn't mean to take issue with the original post (which raises a worthy point), merely to introduce another dimension that I learned about only recently, which came as a surprise. It's possible that the NY Times does a good job of maintaining a clear line between editorial and paid content; but the Boston Globe, which is owned by the NY Times, does not do that very well, and I suspect that is common of "medium-large" papers.
Gender bias in obituaries is a worthy topic unto itself. Just wanted to establish that not everything most people think of as an "obituary" is actually an obituary.
Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 6:32 PM, J Hayes slowking4@gmail.com wrote:
pete, the article linked is listing NYTimes, WashPost, and LATimes. not the paid notices there seems to be no process to systematically incorporate these, even when they provide strong support for notability.
cheers
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 9:15 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
At least in the USA, we have to be cautious about "what is an obituary." Newspapers also run "death notices" which (both in print and online) look much like obituaries, but are actually paid advertisements. I'm not even certain that the terminology ("obituary"=editorial, "death notice"=paid ad) is consistent across news outlets, I'm just reflecting what I learned from the specific papers I dealt with after my dad died.
Any "systemic bias" in death notices would therefore consider a much bigger/more complex system than simply the editorial powers-that-be. You'd have to also consider what drives families to pay for death notices for some people more than others.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 6:07 PM, J Hayes slowking4@gmail.com wrote:
some obits are not behind paywall. a reference to do list would make good work.
maybe we could get Mietchen or Magnus to make an automated list article / category "list of people with obituaries"
cheers
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Links to lists in major news outlets (NYT, BBC, LA TImes, Toronto Star, etc.) along with commentary on gender bias in obits:
http://forward.com/sisterhood/330631/for-women-gender-bias-continues-even-in...
The three women listed in the article do have WP articles. It would take some digging--paywalls, registration, etc,--to see if any of the other women do not yet have articles.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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"there seems to be no process to systematically incorporate these, even when they provide strong support for notability."
In fact, there's a lot of discouragement when you try to incorporate people from notable obits into the Deaths in 20xx articles: redlinks removed, stubs targeted for deletion. This only helps to perpetuate systemic bias.
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 9:32 PM, J Hayes slowking4@gmail.com wrote:
pete, the article linked is listing NYTimes, WashPost, and LATimes. not the paid notices there seems to be no process to systematically incorporate these, even when they provide strong support for notability.
cheers
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 9:15 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
At least in the USA, we have to be cautious about "what is an obituary." Newspapers also run "death notices" which (both in print and online) look much like obituaries, but are actually paid advertisements. I'm not even certain that the terminology ("obituary"=editorial, "death notice"=paid ad) is consistent across news outlets, I'm just reflecting what I learned from the specific papers I dealt with after my dad died.
Any "systemic bias" in death notices would therefore consider a much bigger/more complex system than simply the editorial powers-that-be. You'd have to also consider what drives families to pay for death notices for some people more than others.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 6:07 PM, J Hayes slowking4@gmail.com wrote:
some obits are not behind paywall. a reference to do list would make good work.
maybe we could get Mietchen or Magnus to make an automated list article / category "list of people with obituaries"
cheers
On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Links to lists in major news outlets (NYT, BBC, LA TImes, Toronto Star, etc.) along with commentary on gender bias in obits:
http://forward.com/sisterhood/330631/for-women-gender-bias-continues-even-in...
The three women listed in the article do have WP articles. It would take some digging--paywalls, registration, etc,--to see if any of the other women do not yet have articles.
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
At least in the USA, we have to be cautious about "what is an obituary." Newspapers also run "death notices" which (both in print and >online) look much like obituaries, but are actually paid advertisements. I'm not even certain that the terminology ("obituary"=editorial, >"death notice"=paid ad) is consistent across news outlets, I'm just reflecting what I learned from the specific papers I dealt with after >my dad died.
Writing as someone who once got paid to write newspaper obits, “paids” are, in print, always in [[agate type]], like sports boxscores; obits look like any other story in the same newspaper.
However, textwise, the distinction may be blurring as newspapers cut back on expenses (such as the newbies and interns who cut their journalistic teeth writing obits. Just earlier this week, a young coworker of my wife’s died rather suddenly; when I saw his obit in our local paper I figured they had just printed the text the funeral home sent along since it read like a paid, with all sorts of flowery, non-NPOV language that we never included in obits back in the mid-‘90s regardless of what the funeral home said in the fax, no mention whatsoever of the cause of death, and mentions of a rather wide scope of survivors (the main reason for paids, as families of the decedents usually want to mention relatives outside the scope of the immediate family that newspapers limit their obits to for space if nothing else).
Daniel Case
i should not imagine a fear of paid notices, should prevent a systematic inclusion of NYTimes obits, which are assumed notable. especially with the reference generator doing all the formatting.
no one is doing this; the article mentions 25% female among these. i.e. we don't include reliable sources even to the extent they present less of a gap than we do.
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case < dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
At least in the USA, we have to be cautious about "what is an obituary."
Newspapers also run "death notices" which (both in print and >online) look much like obituaries, but are actually paid advertisements. I'm not even certain that the terminology ("obituary"=editorial, >"death notice"=paid ad) is consistent across news outlets, I'm just reflecting what I learned from the specific papers I dealt with after >my dad died.
Writing as someone who once got paid to write newspaper obits, “paids” are, in print, always in [[agate type]], like sports boxscores; obits look like any other story in the same newspaper.
However, textwise, the distinction may be blurring as newspapers cut back on expenses (such as the newbies and interns who cut their journalistic teeth writing obits. Just earlier this week, a young coworker of my wife’s died rather suddenly; when I saw his obit in our local paper I figured they had just printed the text the funeral home sent along since it read like a paid, with all sorts of flowery, non-NPOV language that we never included in obits back in the mid-‘90s regardless of what the funeral home said in the fax, no mention whatsoever of the cause of death, and mentions of a rather wide scope of survivors (the main reason for paids, as families of the decedents usually want to mention relatives outside the scope of the immediate family that newspapers limit their obits to for space if nothing else).
Daniel Case
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
Yes, a bot-driven list would be quite helpful, if for no other reason than being standardized and therefore race- and gender-blind as far as selection criteria. I have just finished compiling a list from the NYT article, and it was very labor intensive just to generate the list, before even starting to look for red links.
Note, obituary notices from international newspapers are "articles", not advertisements; for further info see the NYT article on how to tell their classified pages from an article. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/25/business/media/25asktheeditors.html Also see the WP article on "obituary". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obituary
The *articles* referenced in the above "lists of notable deaths in 2015" are:
**Los Angeles Times*, "Notable deaths of 2015" http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-2015-notable-deaths-gallery-ph...
**The Washington Post*, "Notable deaths of 2015 and 2016" https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/notable-deaths-of-2015/2015/...
*The Wall Street Journal, "2015 Year in Review: Notable Deaths" http://www.wsj.com/articles/2015-year-in-review-notable-deaths-1450647522
*The Telegraph, "Culture stars who died in 2015" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/news/culture-stars-who-died-in-2015/
**BBC*, "Notable UK deaths of 2015" http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35060400 **New York Times,* "Notable Deaths of 2015" http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/obituaries/notable-deaths-2015.html?...
Out of the 200-odd notable deaths in the NYT article, the following women are red links: * December*: Mariuccia Mandelli, Peggy Say; *November*; Janet Wolfe; *October*: Olga Hirshhorn; *August*:Blondell Cummings, *April*: Evelyn Starks Hardy, Anne-Claude Leflaive.
In addition, there are problems noted--several of the articles are stubs, one appears to be at the wrong name, one shares an article with her husband, and others have tags for reasons that are not immediately apparent. One could wish the people who tag these things would actually fix them if they see a problem, or at least leave a note on the talk page. I noted several of the articles did not have photos, but did not make a note of that. Is there some checklist? It would seem if they are now deceased it would be possible to find a fair-use image. Complete notes and links, as well as links to existing articles are at: https://neotarf.wordpress.com/2016/01/25/lists-of-notable-deaths-of-2015/
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 2:59 PM, J Hayes slowking4@gmail.com wrote:
i should not imagine a fear of paid notices, should prevent a systematic inclusion of NYTimes obits, which are assumed notable. especially with the reference generator doing all the formatting.
no one is doing this; the article mentions 25% female among these. i.e. we don't include reliable sources even to the extent they present less of a gap than we do.
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case < dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
At least in the USA, we have to be cautious about "what is an obituary."
Newspapers also run "death notices" which (both in print and >online) look much like obituaries, but are actually paid advertisements. I'm not even certain that the terminology ("obituary"=editorial, >"death notice"=paid ad) is consistent across news outlets, I'm just reflecting what I learned from the specific papers I dealt with after >my dad died.
Writing as someone who once got paid to write newspaper obits, “paids” are, in print, always in [[agate type]], like sports boxscores; obits look like any other story in the same newspaper.
However, textwise, the distinction may be blurring as newspapers cut back on expenses (such as the newbies and interns who cut their journalistic teeth writing obits. Just earlier this week, a young coworker of my wife’s died rather suddenly; when I saw his obit in our local paper I figured they had just printed the text the funeral home sent along since it read like a paid, with all sorts of flowery, non-NPOV language that we never included in obits back in the mid-‘90s regardless of what the funeral home said in the fax, no mention whatsoever of the cause of death, and mentions of a rather wide scope of survivors (the main reason for paids, as families of the decedents usually want to mention relatives outside the scope of the immediate family that newspapers limit their obits to for space if nothing else).
Daniel Case
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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nice work this is worth making into do list and adding to women in red tasks
it might be worth scraping nytimes and working back, i.e. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/obituaries/notable-deaths-2014.html
this is a nice task for newbies, like the 1lib1ref for everyone, just sprinkling nytimes notability dust throughout.
cheers.
On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 3:51 AM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, a bot-driven list would be quite helpful, if for no other reason than being standardized and therefore race- and gender-blind as far as selection criteria. I have just finished compiling a list from the NYT article, and it was very labor intensive just to generate the list, before even starting to look for red links.
Note, obituary notices from international newspapers are "articles", not advertisements; for further info see the NYT article on how to tell their classified pages from an article. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/25/business/media/25asktheeditors.html Also see the WP article on "obituary". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obituary
The *articles* referenced in the above "lists of notable deaths in 2015" are:
**Los Angeles Times*, "Notable deaths of 2015" http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-2015-notable-deaths-gallery-ph...
**The Washington Post*, "Notable deaths of 2015 and 2016" https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/notable-deaths-of-2015/2015/...
*The Wall Street Journal, "2015 Year in Review: Notable Deaths" http://www.wsj.com/articles/2015-year-in-review-notable-deaths-1450647522
*The Telegraph, "Culture stars who died in 2015" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/news/culture-stars-who-died-in-2015/
**BBC*, "Notable UK deaths of 2015" http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35060400 **New York Times,* "Notable Deaths of 2015" http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/obituaries/notable-deaths-2015.html?...
Out of the 200-odd notable deaths in the NYT article, the following women are red links:
- December*: Mariuccia Mandelli, Peggy Say; *November*; Janet Wolfe;
*October*: Olga Hirshhorn; *August*:Blondell Cummings, *April*: Evelyn Starks Hardy, Anne-Claude Leflaive.
In addition, there are problems noted--several of the articles are stubs, one appears to be at the wrong name, one shares an article with her husband, and others have tags for reasons that are not immediately apparent. One could wish the people who tag these things would actually fix them if they see a problem, or at least leave a note on the talk page. I noted several of the articles did not have photos, but did not make a note of that. Is there some checklist? It would seem if they are now deceased it would be possible to find a fair-use image. Complete notes and links, as well as links to existing articles are at: https://neotarf.wordpress.com/2016/01/25/lists-of-notable-deaths-of-2015/
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 2:59 PM, J Hayes slowking4@gmail.com wrote:
i should not imagine a fear of paid notices, should prevent a systematic inclusion of NYTimes obits, which are assumed notable. especially with the reference generator doing all the formatting.
no one is doing this; the article mentions 25% female among these. i.e. we don't include reliable sources even to the extent they present less of a gap than we do.
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case < dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
At least in the USA, we have to be cautious about "what is an
obituary." Newspapers also run "death notices" which (both in print and
online) look much like obituaries, but are actually paid advertisements.
I'm not even certain that the terminology ("obituary"=editorial, >"death notice"=paid ad) is consistent across news outlets, I'm just reflecting what I learned from the specific papers I dealt with after >my dad died.
Writing as someone who once got paid to write newspaper obits, “paids” are, in print, always in [[agate type]], like sports boxscores; obits look like any other story in the same newspaper.
However, textwise, the distinction may be blurring as newspapers cut back on expenses (such as the newbies and interns who cut their journalistic teeth writing obits. Just earlier this week, a young coworker of my wife’s died rather suddenly; when I saw his obit in our local paper I figured they had just printed the text the funeral home sent along since it read like a paid, with all sorts of flowery, non-NPOV language that we never included in obits back in the mid-‘90s regardless of what the funeral home said in the fax, no mention whatsoever of the cause of death, and mentions of a rather wide scope of survivors (the main reason for paids, as families of the decedents usually want to mention relatives outside the scope of the immediate family that newspapers limit their obits to for space if nothing else).
Daniel Case
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org To manage your subscription preferences, including unsubscribing, please visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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Exactly. It would inoculate some of these articles against premature deletion requests. While the red link focus is good, the newbies aren't necessarily ready to write an article from scratch. Adding refs is perfect place to start developing editing skills, especially if the source has already been vetted.
The "list of deaths by year" series is here, I had not seen that before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_deaths_by_year The lists have pretty much what WiR would need for task list--you can see at a glance if it is blue or red, also a brief description, so someone can pick artists, scientists, etc, depending on their interests, and a link to the source. I don't see any category by gender, you might not be able to get a bot to do that, or even want to. The 2015 NYT list had about 8% red links for women, I would imagine a similar result for other years.
Does anyone know how to approach a bot developer for advice?
On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:14 PM, J Hayes slowking4@gmail.com wrote:
nice work this is worth making into do list and adding to women in red tasks
it might be worth scraping nytimes and working back, i.e. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/obituaries/notable-deaths-2014.html
this is a nice task for newbies, like the 1lib1ref for everyone, just sprinkling nytimes notability dust throughout.
cheers.
On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 3:51 AM, Neotarf neotarf@gmail.com wrote:
Yes, a bot-driven list would be quite helpful, if for no other reason than being standardized and therefore race- and gender-blind as far as selection criteria. I have just finished compiling a list from the NYT article, and it was very labor intensive just to generate the list, before even starting to look for red links.
Note, obituary notices from international newspapers are "articles", not advertisements; for further info see the NYT article on how to tell their classified pages from an article. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/25/business/media/25asktheeditors.html Also see the WP article on "obituary". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obituary
The *articles* referenced in the above "lists of notable deaths in 2015" are:
**Los Angeles Times*, "Notable deaths of 2015" http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-2015-notable-deaths-gallery-ph...
**The Washington Post*, "Notable deaths of 2015 and 2016" https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/notable-deaths-of-2015/2015/...
*The Wall Street Journal, "2015 Year in Review: Notable Deaths" http://www.wsj.com/articles/2015-year-in-review-notable-deaths-1450647522
*The Telegraph, "Culture stars who died in 2015" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/news/culture-stars-who-died-in-2015/
**BBC*, "Notable UK deaths of 2015" http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35060400 **New York Times,* "Notable Deaths of 2015" http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/obituaries/notable-deaths-2015.html?...
Out of the 200-odd notable deaths in the NYT article, the following women are red links:
- December*: Mariuccia Mandelli, Peggy Say; *November*; Janet Wolfe;
*October*: Olga Hirshhorn; *August*:Blondell Cummings, *April*: Evelyn Starks Hardy, Anne-Claude Leflaive.
In addition, there are problems noted--several of the articles are stubs, one appears to be at the wrong name, one shares an article with her husband, and others have tags for reasons that are not immediately apparent. One could wish the people who tag these things would actually fix them if they see a problem, or at least leave a note on the talk page. I noted several of the articles did not have photos, but did not make a note of that. Is there some checklist? It would seem if they are now deceased it would be possible to find a fair-use image. Complete notes and links, as well as links to existing articles are at: https://neotarf.wordpress.com/2016/01/25/lists-of-notable-deaths-of-2015/
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 2:59 PM, J Hayes slowking4@gmail.com wrote:
i should not imagine a fear of paid notices, should prevent a systematic inclusion of NYTimes obits, which are assumed notable. especially with the reference generator doing all the formatting.
no one is doing this; the article mentions 25% female among these. i.e. we don't include reliable sources even to the extent they present less of a gap than we do.
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case < dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
At least in the USA, we have to be cautious about "what is an
obituary." Newspapers also run "death notices" which (both in print and
online) look much like obituaries, but are actually paid advertisements.
I'm not even certain that the terminology ("obituary"=editorial, >"death notice"=paid ad) is consistent across news outlets, I'm just reflecting what I learned from the specific papers I dealt with after >my dad died.
Writing as someone who once got paid to write newspaper obits, “paids” are, in print, always in [[agate type]], like sports boxscores; obits look like any other story in the same newspaper.
However, textwise, the distinction may be blurring as newspapers cut back on expenses (such as the newbies and interns who cut their journalistic teeth writing obits. Just earlier this week, a young coworker of my wife’s died rather suddenly; when I saw his obit in our local paper I figured they had just printed the text the funeral home sent along since it read like a paid, with all sorts of flowery, non-NPOV language that we never included in obits back in the mid-‘90s regardless of what the funeral home said in the fax, no mention whatsoever of the cause of death, and mentions of a rather wide scope of survivors (the main reason for paids, as families of the decedents usually want to mention relatives outside the scope of the immediate family that newspapers limit their obits to for space if nothing else).
Daniel Case
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