The reason I asked to discuss here is to ascertain whether or not there seems to be a different set of notability standards by gender.
I encourage students to contribute to Wikipedia. But when notability is an editor's decision with so many exceptions...how do you encourage?
Really, I am careful and if a book by a brilliant woman like Zoe Wicomb causes notability queries..how, on earth, can this gender gap be addressed?
Here is Ms. Wicomb's prize announcement at Yale. http://windhamcampbell.org/2013/winner/zo%C3%AB-wicomb
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case < dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
On what basis in Clive Cussler notable?
That he’s a regular denizen of the bestseller lists in many countries who’s had works adapted into major motion pictures (To be honest, I think we should say that “all published works by authors who have their paperbacks displayed prominently in the racks near the front of bookstores at airports are notable [image: Smile]“).
Well, I don't know. I had never heard of Cussler before today (don't spend a lot of time in airport bookshops), but I did look at a couple of his novels' Wikipedia articles, and they didn't indicate significance any better than the October article. (One of them had a single, ephemeral reference; the other had 7 that seemed pretty thin.)
I can see how Kathleen would be frustrated by what surely appears from her perspective to be a double standard.
Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
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I believe what caused the more in-depth examination was the creation of a brand new, otherwise unlinked category for the book, which drew the attention of a very different group of editors than the ones who pay attention to works of fiction. You've got the category-interested editors looking at the article, instead of the fiction-interested editors.
It's just a notability tag, it's already been removed, and I'm sure folks will be able to find some more reviews about October (novel).
I don't think it has anything at all to do with the fact that the author is a woman. As best I can tell, the only person comparing this novel to Cussler books is you.
Risker/Anne
On 22 July 2014 13:39, Kathleen McCook klmccook@gmail.com wrote:
The reason I asked to discuss here is to ascertain whether or not there seems to be a different set of notability standards by gender.
I encourage students to contribute to Wikipedia. But when notability is an editor's decision with so many exceptions...how do you encourage?
Really, I am careful and if a book by a brilliant woman like Zoe Wicomb causes notability queries..how, on earth, can this gender gap be addressed?
Here is Ms. Wicomb's prize announcement at Yale. http://windhamcampbell.org/2013/winner/zo%C3%AB-wicomb
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case < dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
On what basis in Clive Cussler notable?
That he’s a regular denizen of the bestseller lists in many countries who’s had works adapted into major motion pictures (To be honest, I think we should say that “all published works by authors who have their paperbacks displayed prominently in the racks near the front of bookstores at airports are notable [image: Smile]“).
Well, I don't know. I had never heard of Cussler before today (don't spend a lot of time in airport bookshops), but I did look at a couple of his novels' Wikipedia articles, and they didn't indicate significance any better than the October article. (One of them had a single, ephemeral reference; the other had 7 that seemed pretty thin.)
I can see how Kathleen would be frustrated by what surely appears from her perspective to be a double standard.
Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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There are two questions here, and I think it's important to look at them separately: * How does systemic bias manifest in what is kept, and what is not, on Wikipedia? * What is the best way for a student to engage with Wikipedia?
I'd like to address the second one, where I have more experience. It depends on what learning outcomes aiming for. If you're looking to give the student some practical experience with Wikipedia, in a general way -- which is what I've done -- I would strongly urge you to design your lessons in a way that guide students away from topics where notability is a substantial concern (grey areas) in their early edits. Put them in a context where they are more likely to have productive encounters, than difficult arguments.
If you're looking to have the students engage with Wikipedia's systemic bias, I think it might be more worthwhile to have them evaluate existing deletion debates (and similar discussions) -- rather than having them contribute directly to Wikipedia. I think it would be easier for them to look at a larger number of cases, and observe without having their personal attachment to an article come into play, if they read stuff that they haven't been involved in.
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Kathleen McCook klmccook@gmail.com wrote:
The reason I asked to discuss here is to ascertain whether or not there seems to be a different set of notability standards by gender.
I encourage students to contribute to Wikipedia. But when notability is an editor's decision with so many exceptions...how do you encourage?
Really, I am careful and if a book by a brilliant woman like Zoe Wicomb causes notability queries..how, on earth, can this gender gap be addressed?
Here is Ms. Wicomb's prize announcement at Yale. http://windhamcampbell.org/2013/winner/zo%C3%AB-wicomb
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case < dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
On what basis in Clive Cussler notable?
That he’s a regular denizen of the bestseller lists in many countries who’s had works adapted into major motion pictures (To be honest, I think we should say that “all published works by authors who have their paperbacks displayed prominently in the racks near the front of bookstores at airports are notable [image: Smile]“).
Well, I don't know. I had never heard of Cussler before today (don't spend a lot of time in airport bookshops), but I did look at a couple of his novels' Wikipedia articles, and they didn't indicate significance any better than the October article. (One of them had a single, ephemeral reference; the other had 7 that seemed pretty thin.)
I can see how Kathleen would be frustrated by what surely appears from her perspective to be a double standard.
Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 7:46 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
If you're looking to have the students engage with Wikipedia's systemic bias, I think it might be more worthwhile to have them evaluate existing deletion debates (and similar discussions) -- rather than having them contribute directly to Wikipedia.
That's an interesting idea, Pete! If that sounds like a meaningful classroom exercise, I'd be happy to get involved.
My dissertation research used deletion debates as a case study -- the Research Newsletter has a couple of writeups here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Newsletter/2012/September#cite_ref-... https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Newsletter/2013/May#In_brief
I think it would be easier for them to look at a larger number of cases,
and observe without having their personal attachment to an article come into play, if they read stuff that they haven't been involved in.
Detachment certainly helps!
Another way to look at systemic bias is to connect to current research about how - geographic coverage varies - language editions have different depths and coverage
Happy to talk further if that interests anybody...
-Jodi
-Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
Hi Kathleen,
I suppose you are writing about this revision (or thereabouts): http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=October_(novel)&direction=next...
A notability tag is not a "Scarlet A": it is merely a sign that the notability of the topic hasn't been sufficiently asserted.
The best way to avoid it?
Choose multiple, clear, independent sources. Check the subject-specific notability guidelines. For books, for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(books)
Given a revision with two sources, one from a little-known site called "we love this book", it's unsurprising! Remember that editors come from all backgrounds and we don't all know as much as/the same things as you!
I've thought a lot about notability, as a researcher, so if you want to talk more about it, let me know!
-Jodi
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 7:39 PM, Kathleen McCook klmccook@gmail.com wrote:
The reason I asked to discuss here is to ascertain whether or not there seems to be a different set of notability standards by gender.
I encourage students to contribute to Wikipedia. But when notability is an editor's decision with so many exceptions...how do you encourage?
Really, I am careful and if a book by a brilliant woman like Zoe Wicomb causes notability queries..how, on earth, can this gender gap be addressed?
Here is Ms. Wicomb's prize announcement at Yale. http://windhamcampbell.org/2013/winner/zo%C3%AB-wicomb
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case < dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
On what basis in Clive Cussler notable?
That he’s a regular denizen of the bestseller lists in many countries who’s had works adapted into major motion pictures (To be honest, I think we should say that “all published works by authors who have their paperbacks displayed prominently in the racks near the front of bookstores at airports are notable [image: Smile]“).
Well, I don't know. I had never heard of Cussler before today (don't spend a lot of time in airport bookshops), but I did look at a couple of his novels' Wikipedia articles, and they didn't indicate significance any better than the October article. (One of them had a single, ephemeral reference; the other had 7 that seemed pretty thin.)
I can see how Kathleen would be frustrated by what surely appears from her perspective to be a double standard.
Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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She's an African woman. She's won Yale's big prize. She is notable except this guy thought she wasn't.The I LOVE THIS book site mean to show she also had a general appeal. I see how they expect so much more to justify notability for a woman of color than a male author of potboilers. It's discouraging and the gender list even more so. Thanks for your input. I just don't think the wikipeople feel women count. They have to show so much more than the men. Thank you for taking the time.
-K
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 5:06 PM, Jodi Schneider jschneider@pobox.com wrote:
Hi Kathleen,
I suppose you are writing about this revision (or thereabouts):
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=October_(novel)&direction=next...
A notability tag is not a "Scarlet A": it is merely a sign that the notability of the topic hasn't been sufficiently asserted.
The best way to avoid it?
Choose multiple, clear, independent sources. Check the subject-specific notability guidelines. For books, for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(books)
Given a revision with two sources, one from a little-known site called "we love this book", it's unsurprising! Remember that editors come from all backgrounds and we don't all know as much as/the same things as you!
I've thought a lot about notability, as a researcher, so if you want to talk more about it, let me know!
-Jodi
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 7:39 PM, Kathleen McCook klmccook@gmail.com wrote:
The reason I asked to discuss here is to ascertain whether or not there seems to be a different set of notability standards by gender.
I encourage students to contribute to Wikipedia. But when notability is an editor's decision with so many exceptions...how do you encourage?
Really, I am careful and if a book by a brilliant woman like Zoe Wicomb causes notability queries..how, on earth, can this gender gap be addressed?
Here is Ms. Wicomb's prize announcement at Yale. http://windhamcampbell.org/2013/winner/zo%C3%AB-wicomb
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Pete Forsyth peteforsyth@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case < dancase@frontiernet.net> wrote:
On what basis in Clive Cussler notable?
That he’s a regular denizen of the bestseller lists in many countries who’s had works adapted into major motion pictures (To be honest, I think we should say that “all published works by authors who have their paperbacks displayed prominently in the racks near the front of bookstores at airports are notable [image: Smile]“).
Well, I don't know. I had never heard of Cussler before today (don't spend a lot of time in airport bookshops), but I did look at a couple of his novels' Wikipedia articles, and they didn't indicate significance any better than the October article. (One of them had a single, ephemeral reference; the other had 7 that seemed pretty thin.)
I can see how Kathleen would be frustrated by what surely appears from her perspective to be a double standard.
Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]]
Gendergap mailing list Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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She's an African woman. She's won Yale's big prize.
Which, as I’ve noted, wasn’t even mentioned in the article at the time the tag was placed.
She is notable except this guy thought she wasn't.
The placing of the tag doesn’t mean (necessarily) that he doubted her notability, as Jodi just pointed out. It means that he didn’t see it asserted, and was perhaps trying to goad you to add that to the article.
I see how they expect so much more to justify notability for a >woman of color than a male author of potboilers.
Well, as I did point out a day or so ago, someone tagged an article on one of Cussler’s books with the same tag nine months ago. And it’s still there.
Daniel Case
