Hi,
I just posted the last post in our series on the Berlin hackathon on the tech blog: http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/05/16/developers-go-home-after-productive-ber...
I'm particularly interested in hearing about how people here felt about the communications around and during the event (whether they attended in person or followed the event remotely): e.g. did you watch and/or participate in the live video feed, live note-taking, IRCing, tweeting, blogging, and did you find it useful.
Setting up the live video feed isn't easy, and taking notes in real time is pretty time- and energy-consuming, but we can make efforts to continue to do it in the future, if it's worth it. We'd just like to know how useful it is.
Thanks!
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Guillaume Paumier gpaumier@wikimedia.orgwrote:
Setting up the live video feed isn't easy, and taking notes in real time is pretty time- and energy-consuming, but we can make efforts to continue to do it in the future, if it's worth it. We'd just like to know how useful it is.
The EtherPad notes were especially useful for me. The live video was less useful because of the time difference. The videos after the fact are fun, so if it was a combination of notes and post-produced videos I'd be happy.
Thanks for all the hard work on documentation. It sure was nice to read the blog posts as you all went along.
Steven
"Steven Walling" steven.walling@gmail.com wrote in message news:BANLkTi=TGX+f01W6bjftqO40ORtOuBDa-w@mail.gmail.com...
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Guillaume Paumier gpaumier@wikimedia.orgwrote:
Setting up the live video feed isn't easy, and taking notes in real time is pretty time- and energy-consuming, but we can make efforts to continue to do it in the future, if it's worth it. We'd just like to know how useful it is.
The EtherPad notes were especially useful for me. The live video was less useful because of the time difference. The videos after the fact are fun, so if it was a combination of notes and post-produced videos I'd be happy.
Thanks for all the hard work on documentation. It sure was nice to read the blog posts as you all went along.
Steven
Being in a similar timezone avoided that problem for me, and it was a welcome distraction from RL to watch some of the videos; but I didn't gain anything particular out of it being live because there was no obvious way to interact back. Admittedly I was hampered by being unable to use IRC, but were people on it 'live' during the event? I was tempted to drop a question onto the EtherPad and see if anyone picked it up.
I suspect that there actually was a reasonable amount of scope for remote interactivity, just that it wasn't as obvious or well-advertised as it could have been. But since the only advantage to *outputting* media feeds in real-time is if remote viewers can *input* straight back, that's something that would be worth consolidating in the future.
--HM
On 05/18/2011 12:29 AM, Happy-melon wrote:
"Steven Walling"steven.walling@gmail.com wrote in message news:BANLkTi=TGX+f01W6bjftqO40ORtOuBDa-w@mail.gmail.com...
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Guillaume Paumier gpaumier@wikimedia.orgwrote:
Setting up the live video feed isn't easy, and taking notes in real time is pretty time- and energy-consuming, but we can make efforts to continue to do it in the future, if it's worth it. We'd just like to know how useful it is.
The EtherPad notes were especially useful for me. The live video was less useful because of the time difference. The videos after the fact are fun, so if it was a combination of notes and post-produced videos I'd be happy.
Thanks for all the hard work on documentation. It sure was nice to read the blog posts as you all went along.
Steven
Being in a similar timezone avoided that problem for me, and it was a welcome distraction from RL to watch some of the videos; but I didn't gain anything particular out of it being live because there was no obvious way to interact back. Admittedly I was hampered by being unable to use IRC, but were people on it 'live' during the event? I was tempted to drop a question onto the EtherPad and see if anyone picked it up.
I suspect that there actually was a reasonable amount of scope for remote interactivity, just that it wasn't as obvious or well-advertised as it could have been. But since the only advantage to *outputting* media feeds in real-time is if remote viewers can *input* straight back, that's something that would be worth consolidating in the future.
--HM
Why were you unable to use IRC? There exist web clients as well, in case installing an application is the blocker. And yes, we and many other participants were on it, live, during the event. And why didn't you ask your question in Etherpad? We chatted there with both onsite and remote participants while taking notes.
What publicity channels do you pay attention to, such that we could have persuaded you to interact more with us during the event? It sounds like our techblog posts and mailing list posts didn't work. I may sound frustrated but I am seriously asking -- if you didn't get the message that we wanted remote participation, then some others did not as well.
-Sumana Harihareswara, one of the note-takers
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Happy-melon happy-melon@live.com wrote:
"Steven Walling" steven.walling@gmail.com wrote in message news:BANLkTi=TGX+f01W6bjftqO40ORtOuBDa-w@mail.gmail.com...
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Guillaume Paumier gpaumier@wikimedia.orgwrote:
Setting up the live video feed isn't easy, and taking notes in real time is pretty time- and energy-consuming, but we can make efforts to continue to do it in the future, if it's worth it. We'd just like to know how useful it is.
The EtherPad notes were especially useful for me. The live video was less useful because of the time difference. The videos after the fact are fun, so if it was a combination of notes and post-produced videos I'd be happy.
Thanks for all the hard work on documentation. It sure was nice to read the blog posts as you all went along.
Steven
Being in a similar timezone avoided that problem for me, and it was a welcome distraction from RL to watch some of the videos; but I didn't gain anything particular out of it being live because there was no obvious way to interact back. Admittedly I was hampered by being unable to use IRC, but were people on it 'live' during the event? I was tempted to drop a question onto the EtherPad and see if anyone picked it up.
I suspect that there actually was a reasonable amount of scope for remote interactivity, just that it wasn't as obvious or well-advertised as it could have been. But since the only advantage to *outputting* media feeds in real-time is if remote viewers can *input* straight back, that's something that would be worth consolidating in the future.
I was only really available for the Tech Days, so I guess it's a bit different. However, I dropped in and followed the conversation. It wasn't particularly clear what I was supposed to do with my opinion — the etherpad is generally considered a record of what was said in person, and I wasn't necessarily comfortable adding my own thoughts in there. At the same time, I had mixed results asking questions in the etherpad chat.
So I agree with HM that, while it was pretty easy to follow what was going on (and I have to give big props to the people who set it up like that), it wasn't too obvious how I could actually contribute to the discussion.
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Andrew Garrett agarrett@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Happy-melon happy-melon@live.com wrote:
"Steven Walling" steven.walling@gmail.com wrote in message news:BANLkTi=TGX+f01W6bjftqO40ORtOuBDa-w@mail.gmail.com...
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Guillaume Paumier gpaumier@wikimedia.orgwrote:
Setting up the live video feed isn't easy, and taking notes in real time is pretty time- and energy-consuming, but we can make efforts to continue to do it in the future, if it's worth it. We'd just like to know how useful it is.
The EtherPad notes were especially useful for me. The live video was less useful because of the time difference. The videos after the fact are fun, so if it was a combination of notes and post-produced videos I'd be happy.
Thanks for all the hard work on documentation. It sure was nice to read the blog posts as you all went along.
Steven
Being in a similar timezone avoided that problem for me, and it was a welcome distraction from RL to watch some of the videos; but I didn't gain anything particular out of it being live because there was no obvious way to interact back. Admittedly I was hampered by being unable to use IRC, but were people on it 'live' during the event? I was tempted to drop a question onto the EtherPad and see if anyone picked it up.
I suspect that there actually was a reasonable amount of scope for remote interactivity, just that it wasn't as obvious or well-advertised as it could have been. But since the only advantage to *outputting* media feeds in real-time is if remote viewers can *input* straight back, that's something that would be worth consolidating in the future.
I was only really available for the Tech Days, so I guess it's a bit different. However, I dropped in and followed the conversation. It wasn't particularly clear what I was supposed to do with my opinion — the etherpad is generally considered a record of what was said in person, and I wasn't necessarily comfortable adding my own thoughts in there. At the same time, I had mixed results asking questions in the etherpad chat.
So I agree with HM that, while it was pretty easy to follow what was going on (and I have to give big props to the people who set it up like that), it wasn't too obvious how I could actually contribute to the discussion.
-- Andrew Garrett Wikimedia Foundation agarrett@wikimedia.org
Thanks for clarifying, Andrew and Happy-melon. I've thought of a few things we could have done, but were often too busy directly taking notes to do:
* Ensured that the speakers actively asked for questions _from IRC and remote participants_ * More consistently & explicitly asked for questions via IRC and Etherpad
Happy-melon, I do believe that posting to wikitech-l is a way to tell people who are actively seeking MediaWiki-related information -- after all, they chose to subscribe to the list! But I take your point. For next time:
* Include "we want your remote participation, here's how" summary at the *top* of the hackathon's canonical page -- in this case, at mediawiki.org
With folks in the #mediawiki IRC channel, I've also developed some additional lessons learned/TODOs for next time:
* Need multiple dedicated notetakers (1 is not enough during quickly-moving discussions) PLUS a person to actively monitor IRC/Etherpad/Twitter and explicitly ask for questions and comments, plus probably another for backup/relief. (Wikimedia's Germany chapter had attempted to recruit more local hackers as notetakers and couldn't get them -- perhaps next time!) * Etherpad makes it unclear how to ask questions -- chat? main body of the text? Consider a dedicated Etherpad for Q&A, or templated areas within the notes set aside for questions * Encourage other people at the conference to get on IRC & Etherpad and respond to the questions and comments from remote participants * Consider dedicating discussion time, possibly after each batch of speakers, for questions and comments from remote and in-person participants
I'm glad it was easy to follow what was going on from afar! So it sounds like this was definitely an improvement over past hackathons in this respect. Next time: better interactivity. Thank you for the bug reports.
Best, Sumana Harihareswara
Hi Sumana!
Thank you for this very useful summary of the feedback. That goes streight to our Lessons Learned page :)
And of course a special thanks to you and Guillome for tirelessly hacking the sessions into etherpad. And of course to Jesse Scott, who took care of the streaming. We would have been lost without you, guys!
-- daniel
On 19.05.2011 12:59, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
Thanks for clarifying, Andrew and Happy-melon. I've thought of a few things we could have done, but were often too busy directly taking notes to do:
- Ensured that the speakers actively asked for questions _from IRC and
remote participants_
- More consistently & explicitly asked for questions via IRC and Etherpad
Happy-melon, I do believe that posting to wikitech-l is a way to tell people who are actively seeking MediaWiki-related information -- after all, they chose to subscribe to the list! But I take your point. For next time:
- Include "we want your remote participation, here's how" summary at
the *top* of the hackathon's canonical page -- in this case, at mediawiki.org
With folks in the #mediawiki IRC channel, I've also developed some additional lessons learned/TODOs for next time:
- Need multiple dedicated notetakers (1 is not enough during
quickly-moving discussions) PLUS a person to actively monitor IRC/Etherpad/Twitter and explicitly ask for questions and comments, plus probably another for backup/relief. (Wikimedia's Germany chapter had attempted to recruit more local hackers as notetakers and couldn't get them -- perhaps next time!)
- Etherpad makes it unclear how to ask questions -- chat? main body
of the text? Consider a dedicated Etherpad for Q&A, or templated areas within the notes set aside for questions
- Encourage other people at the conference to get on IRC & Etherpad
and respond to the questions and comments from remote participants
- Consider dedicating discussion time, possibly after each batch of
speakers, for questions and comments from remote and in-person participants
I'm glad it was easy to follow what was going on from afar! So it sounds like this was definitely an improvement over past hackathons in this respect. Next time: better interactivity. Thank you for the bug reports.
Best, Sumana Harihareswara
Daniel,
You are very welcome, and thanks to the WMDE team for making it all possible.
At Nikerabbit's suggestion, an excerpt from a LWN article about Ubuntu Developer Summit describing how to thoroughly encourage participation from remote & local audiences:
All of the UDS meetings are set up the same, with a "fishbowl" of half-a-dozen chairs in the center where the microphone is placed so that audio from the meeting can be streamed live. There are two projector screens in each room, one showing the IRC channel so that external participants can comment and ask questions; the other is generally "tuned" to the Etherpad notes for the session, though it can be showing the Launchpad blueprint or some other document of interest.
The team that is running the meeting sits in the fishbowl, while the other attendees are seated just outside of it; sometimes all over the floor and spilling out into the hallway. "Audience" participation is clearly an important part of UDS sessions.
-Sumana
On 05/19/2011 11:07 AM, Daniel Kinzler wrote:
Hi Sumana!
Thank you for this very useful summary of the feedback. That goes streight to our Lessons Learned page :)
And of course a special thanks to you and Guillome for tirelessly hacking the sessions into etherpad. And of course to Jesse Scott, who took care of the streaming. We would have been lost without you, guys!
-- daniel
On 19.05.2011 12:59, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
Thanks for clarifying, Andrew and Happy-melon. I've thought of a few things we could have done, but were often too busy directly taking notes to do:
- Ensured that the speakers actively asked for questions _from IRC and
remote participants_
- More consistently& explicitly asked for questions via IRC and Etherpad
Happy-melon, I do believe that posting to wikitech-l is a way to tell people who are actively seeking MediaWiki-related information -- after all, they chose to subscribe to the list! But I take your point. For next time:
- Include "we want your remote participation, here's how" summary at
the *top* of the hackathon's canonical page -- in this case, at mediawiki.org
With folks in the #mediawiki IRC channel, I've also developed some additional lessons learned/TODOs for next time:
- Need multiple dedicated notetakers (1 is not enough during
quickly-moving discussions) PLUS a person to actively monitor IRC/Etherpad/Twitter and explicitly ask for questions and comments, plus probably another for backup/relief. (Wikimedia's Germany chapter had attempted to recruit more local hackers as notetakers and couldn't get them -- perhaps next time!)
- Etherpad makes it unclear how to ask questions -- chat? main body
of the text? Consider a dedicated Etherpad for Q&A, or templated areas within the notes set aside for questions
- Encourage other people at the conference to get on IRC& Etherpad
and respond to the questions and comments from remote participants
- Consider dedicating discussion time, possibly after each batch of
speakers, for questions and comments from remote and in-person participants
I'm glad it was easy to follow what was going on from afar! So it sounds like this was definitely an improvement over past hackathons in this respect. Next time: better interactivity. Thank you for the bug reports.
Best, Sumana Harihareswara
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Sumana Harihareswara <sumanah@wikimedia.org
wrote:
At Nikerabbit's suggestion, an excerpt from a LWN article about Ubuntu Developer Summit describing how to thoroughly encourage participation from remote & local audiences:
All of the UDS meetings are set up the same, with a "fishbowl" of half-a-dozen chairs in the center where the microphone is placed so that audio from the meeting can be streamed live. There are two projector screens in each room, one showing the IRC channel so that external participants can comment and ask questions; the other is generally "tuned" to the Etherpad notes for the session, though it can be showing the Launchpad blueprint or some other document of interest.
The team that is running the meeting sits in the fishbowl, while the other attendees are seated just outside of it; sometimes all over the floor and spilling out into the hallway. "Audience" participation is clearly an important part of UDS sessions.
That's a great way to run certain kinds of planning or "present cool idea & brainstorm about it to find cool things to start working on" sessions.
It seemed a lot of our sessions this time around were kind of halfway between that style and either an open-room presentation or a small intense workgroup; I think with a little better room/group separation for some of the break-out groups we make more of them work like that and be more inviting to remote participants.
Particularly if we can coordinate a little better with some of the additional groups like the Language Committee & Wiki Loves Monuments people -- as some folks said on-site the langcom folks seemed to be a bit more aggressive about coming over and grabbing devs for questions & comments (hi GerardM! ;) than the WLM folks, and we'd probably benefit from a little explicit session time with both groups. Scheduling a brief breakout session & letting the remote folks have the chance to show up for it too can help here over just the ad-hoc connections we make person-to-person.
Etherpad's a particularly nice medium for the group note-taking since you tend to end up with two or three people each sort of half-covering the session in notes, and they can fill in for each other as attentions wander to and from specific parts of the conversation. It also gives remote participants a *direct* way to interact -- "what was THIS about? can you clarify THAT?" -- before the on-site participants lose their context and end up unable to clarify the documents.
Anyway long story short -- super great meetings, and I think we're well on our way to figuring out how to do a fun & productive hackathon. Thanks to everybody at WMDE, WMF, and the Beta Haus who helped make it a reality this year!
-- brion
On 16/05/11 21:43, Guillaume Paumier wrote: <snip>
I'm particularly interested in hearing about how people here felt about the communications around and during the event (whether they attended in person or followed the event remotely): e.g. did you watch and/or participate in the live video feed, live note-taking, IRCing, tweeting, blogging, and did you find it useful.
<snip>
I have been at the event for 7 days. The main trouble is that most people talk a mix of foreign language and or English. French should be a requirement.
I really liked the live note-taking. It let you catch back when you got disturbed by something else, let you read hard to understand English words and provide a very useful reading about what you have done during the day. I think, on Monday, Haeb used the Etherpad notes to write his articles for the SignPost.
I have not used IRC that much, mostly to find where other people where or to asynchronously ask questions I do not tweet.
Your blog posts on the techblog are the most important things. The reason being that, in the future, they are probably the only text which will still be read by people.
In conclusion: blog : +++ etherpad : ++ IRC : = tweet : - video : = (I was there)
PS: please write blog posts in French next time =))))
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