On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Max Semenik maxsem.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
On 20.08.2011, 22:23 Martijn wrote:
On wikimedia projects that are not Wikipedia (Wikia in specific comes to mind) I often find myself using templates that have not been defined on that installation. The English Wikipedia (which I am most familiar with) has many very usefull templates, especially the {{citeFoo}} templates, but numerous others as well. Trying to 'import' one is a bit of a pain though. Many templates depend on other templates, and it is not often very clear how (as a fun exercise for the reader, try to import the {{convert}} template to a new wiki, and see how easy it is!). I was wondering if it might be a good idea to include a standard template library to Wikimedia installations, containing a set of utility templates along with the Wikimedia distribution. I'm cross-posting foudation, for possible discussion if this is desirable, and wikitech, for possible discussion if this is feasable.
Don't forget, English is one of 300-something languages we support. And users of other languages typically don't feel comfortable with using English templates, because words like "cite book", "author" and "link" are meaningless to them. So we're speaking about 300+ sets of templates. This is both unmaintainable and burdensome. And don't forget, not every MediaWiki (that's how our software is called, not Wikimedia!) will want them. I would suppport a system that downloads them on-demand, however shipping zillion templates out of the box is simply out of the question.
-- Best regards, ?Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
eh, Derp on the MediaWiki/Wikimedia, dunno where that came from. Also I'm not proposing to export all the en.wiki templates, but rather establish a core set of templates that could be exported (and translated!) on demand.
Regards,
Martijn
The English Wikipedia has useful templates for an encyclopedia. MediaWiki-software is useful for making an encyclopedia, but doesn't have to be forced to be one. If someone wants a template from en.wp, they will export it and import it at their own MediaWiki-install. If that takes two hours, it says more about the total mess of the en.wp template structure, then about the 'lack of standard templates' in a MediaWiki-install. It will still take a considerable amount of time to import a template with standard templates in place.
Then there will be a discussion what will be useful templates for a new MediaWiki install. If you decide to ship a MediaWiki install with a set of templates, the best case is that they will use all templates. Every worse case is that they will end up with a few templates they can use/want to use and lots and lots of junk.
Furthermore I am wondering who wants to maintain such an arbitrary bunch of templates for 200 languages? It's not only the name of the templates that need to be translated. The contents of every template, including transclusions of other templates and language-specific outcome of 'magic words' (for example in {{#ifeq: }}-statements) need to be translated. If one wants to import a template from en.wp, he/she has to import templates and templates where that template is depending on like before. Now they have to translate the inclusion of standard templates too, because on their wiki these standard templates now have names in their custom language.
Sumurai8
On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Max Semenik maxsem.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
On 20.08.2011, 22:23 Martijn wrote:
On wikimedia projects that are not Wikipedia (Wikia in specific comes to mind) I often find myself using templates that have not been defined on that installation. The English Wikipedia (which I am most familiar with) has many very usefull templates, especially the {{citeFoo}} templates, but numerous others as well. Trying to 'import' one is a bit of a pain though. Many templates depend on other templates, and it is not often very clear how (as a fun exercise for the reader, try to import the {{convert}} template to a new wiki, and see how easy it is!). I was wondering if it might be a good idea to include a standard template library to Wikimedia installations, containing a set of utility templates along with the Wikimedia distribution. I'm cross-posting foudation, for possible discussion if this is desirable, and wikitech, for possible discussion if this is feasable.
Don't forget, English is one of 300-something languages we support. And users of other languages typically don't feel comfortable with using English templates, because words like "cite book", "author" and "link" are meaningless to them. So we're speaking about 300+ sets of templates. This is both unmaintainable and burdensome. And don't forget, not every MediaWiki (that's how our software is called, not Wikimedia!) will want them. I would suppport a system that downloads them on-demand, however shipping zillion templates out of the box is simply out of the question.
-- Best regards, ?Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
eh, Derp on the MediaWiki/Wikimedia, dunno where that came from. Also I'm not proposing to export all the en.wiki templates, but rather establish a core set of templates that could be exported (and translated!) on demand.
Regards,
Martijn
The English Wikipedia has useful templates for an encyclopedia. MediaWiki-software is useful for making an encyclopedia, but doesn't have to be forced to be one. If someone wants a template from en.wp, they will export it and import it at their own MediaWiki-install. If that takes two hours, it says more about the total mess of the en.wp template structure, then about the 'lack of standard templates' in a MediaWiki-install. It will still take a considerable amount of time to import a template with standard templates in place.
Then there will be a discussion what will be useful templates for a new MediaWiki install. If you decide to ship a MediaWiki install with a set of templates, the best case is that they will use all templates. Every worse case is that they will end up with a few templates they can use/want to use and lots and lots of junk.
Furthermore I am wondering who wants to maintain such an arbitrary bunch of templates for 200 languages? It's not only the name of the templates that need to be translated. The contents of every template, including transclusions of other templates and language-specific outcome of 'magic words' (for example in {{#ifeq: }}-statements) need to be translated. If one wants to import a template from en.wp, he/she has to import templates and templates where that template is depending on like before. Now they have to translate the inclusion of standard templates too, because on their wiki these standard templates now have names in their custom language.
Sumurai8
I guess those who would want to maintain this would be people interested in forks of Wikipedia. Good point though about the template structure on Wikipedia. Rationalization of that would be part of this.
Fred
----- Original Message -----
From: Sumurai8 (DD) sumurai8@gmail.com To: wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 11:15 PM Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] Mediawiki and a standard template library
On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 8:35 PM, Max Semenik maxsem.wiki@gmail.com
wrote:
On 20.08.2011, 22:23 Martijn wrote:
On wikimedia projects that are not Wikipedia (Wikia in specific
comes
to mind) I often find myself using templates that have not been defined on that installation. The English Wikipedia (which I am
most
familiar with) has many very usefull templates, especially the {{citeFoo}} templates, but numerous others as well. Trying to
'import'
one is a bit of a pain though. Many templates depend on other templates, and it is not often very clear how (as a fun exercise
for
the reader, try to import the {{convert}} template to a new wiki,
and
see how easy it is!). I was wondering if it might be a good idea to include a standard template library to Wikimedia installations, containing a set of utility templates along with the Wikimedia distribution. I'm cross-posting foudation, for possible
discussion if
this is desirable, and wikitech, for possible discussion if this is feasable.
Don't forget, English is one of 300-something languages we support. And users of other languages typically don't feel comfortable with using English templates, because words like "cite book",
"author" and
"link" are meaningless to them. So we're speaking about
300+ sets of
templates. This is both unmaintainable and burdensome. And don't forget, not every MediaWiki (that's how our software is called, not Wikimedia!) will want them. I would suppport a system that downloads them on-demand, however shipping zillion templates out of the box is simply out of the question.
-- Best regards, ?Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])
eh, Derp on the MediaWiki/Wikimedia, dunno where that came from. Also I'm not proposing to export all the en.wiki templates, but rather establish a core set of templates that could be exported (and translated!) on demand.
Regards,
Martijn
The English Wikipedia has useful templates for an encyclopedia. MediaWiki-software is useful for making an encyclopedia, but doesn't have to be forced to be one. If someone wants a template from en.wp, they will export it and import it at their own MediaWiki-install. If that takes two hours, it says more about the total mess of the en.wp template structure, then about the 'lack of standard templates' in a MediaWiki-install. It will still take a considerable amount of time to import a template with standard templates in place.
Then there will be a discussion what will be useful templates for a new MediaWiki install. If you decide to ship a MediaWiki install with a set of templates, the best case is that they will use all templates. Every worse case is that they will end up with a few templates they can use/want to use and lots and lots of junk.
Furthermore I am wondering who wants to maintain such an arbitrary bunch of templates for 200 languages? It's not only the name of the templates that need to be translated. The contents of every template, including transclusions of other templates and language-specific outcome of 'magic words' (for example in {{#ifeq: }}-statements) need to be translated. If one wants to import a template from en.wp, he/she has to import templates and templates where that template is depending on like before. Now they have to translate the inclusion of standard templates too, because on their wiki these standard templates now have names in their custom language.
Sumurai8
So, if I can express some simple opinion, perhaps what would be useful is a mean to easily export/import a template and all those which are necessary for it to work properly. I don't know if such a tool exist, but could it bea (partial) solution?
G. Moko (Forgive my poor english...)
So, if I can express some simple opinion, perhaps what would be useful is a mean to easily export/import a template and all those which are necessary for it to work properly. I don't know if such a tool exist, but could it bea (partial) solution?
G. Moko (Forgive my poor english...)
If the category scheme is rational importing all the templates in a category will work.
Fred
IMHO, the idea of a decent set of common, shared, english-named, standard templates is really a a good one. Noone have nothing against the fact that reserved words of any programming language is english-named and standard.
I presume, that many of existing templates aren't used into ns0 or other content namespaces; in my opinion, the core shared templates should be focused on common content namespaces troubles.
Please consider too that many templates require some peculiar css settings too; perhaps a common, shared ccs for tags used in content namespaces would be both more simple to do, and very useful so build a shared group of templates.
Alex brollo
Note that things like {{Cite}} and {{trim}} should probably be an extension that adds a parser function, not a template.
Although the overlap between extensions adding parser functions and and templates getting tighter with WikiScripts, in general templates are for re-used wikitext and formatting.
Parser functions / magic words are for computing and logic.
So to share such logic from one wiki to another, one doesn't. One simply installs the same extension.
-- Krinkle
On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 11:31 PM, go moko gomoko@yahoo.com wrote:
So, if I can express some simple opinion, perhaps what would be useful is a mean to easily export/import a template and all those which are necessary for it to work properly. I don't know if such a tool exist, but could it bea (partial) solution?
This should not be too hard to program - what is needed is that one exports/imports not only the template but also all templates included in it. There is already functionality to get this list - they are shown on the edit page. Thus, all that is needed is some kind of interface to "export this page and all templates directly or indirectly included in it". Also useful in case someone wants to fork with only a subset of the pages.
On 25 August 2011 08:28, Andre Engels andreengels@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 11:31 PM, go moko gomoko@yahoo.com wrote:
So, if I can express some simple opinion, perhaps what would be useful is a mean to easily export/import a template and all those which are necessary for it to work properly. I don't know if such a tool exist, but could it bea (partial) solution?
This should not be too hard to program - what is needed is that one exports/imports not only the template but also all templates included in it. There is already functionality to get this list - they are shown on the edit page. Thus, all that is needed is some kind of interface to "export this page and all templates directly or indirectly included in it".
You mean like… checking the “Include templates” box on Special:Export?
But the problem is more difficult than that. MediaWiki has no chance of knowing which templates are “necessary for it to work properly”, it can only detect those that are _actually used_ in a specific use case (as you say, those which are shown on the edit page), which is just a subset of those required in general.
-- [[cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec]]
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Petr Kadlec petr.kadlec@gmail.com wrote:
You mean like… checking the “Include templates” box on Special:Export?
I guess that's what I mean, it's been a few years since I last saw Special:Export - long enough that I have no idea whether that box is from before or after that time.
But the problem is more difficult than that. MediaWiki has no chance of knowing which templates are “necessary for it to work properly”, it can only detect those that are _actually used_ in a specific use case (as you say, those which are shown on the edit page), which is just a subset of those required in general.
No, but it does at least mean that exporting and importing any single template should be possible in a very short time indeed.
On 25 August 2011 10:47, Andre Engels andreengels@gmail.com wrote:
But the problem is more difficult than that. MediaWiki has no chance of knowing which templates are “necessary for it to work properly”, it can only detect those that are _actually used_ in a specific use case (as you say, those which are shown on the edit page), which is just a subset of those required in general.
No, but it does at least mean that exporting and importing any single template should be possible in a very short time indeed.
Well… no, generally not. Check for instance {{flagicon}}. There is no way Special:Export could recognize it is required to export all 2556 (!) templates in [[Special:Prefixindex/Template:Country data]].
Of course, this does help for “simpler” template systems.
-- Petr Kadlec / Mormegil
It could frequently come out a big problem of collisions with existing templates with different code. I feel that synonimous templates, with different features, are a very subtle and harmful touble. This raises the long-standing problem of "redundancy and coherence" so deeply afflicting anything into wiki contents, but extension tags. It's impossible to leave to the willingness of bold, sometimes unexperienced users, the hard task to align templates. Exactly the same, for experienced users.
But perhaps, a "SharedTemplatesExtension" could be built, ensuring a common repository of template routines, matched with common names. I can't imagine how this can be done. :-(
Alex
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