Hi everyone,
On the French Wikipedia we're currently reworking our help page about redirects and some of us would like to include a section about common misconceptions, especially those described at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation_popups/About_fixing_redirects&oldid=988508313.
However one user who's used to "fix" redirects is strongly opposed because "this page is from 2006" and it's "unsourced".[1]
So I would like to ask the sysadmins from Wikimedia and the MediaWiki developers who are following this mailing list: is this page created in 2006 still true and relevant in 2020?
Thank you.
-- Kind regards, Thibaut Payet [[User:Thibaut120094]]
the page was created in 2006 [1], but i don't think it's up to date for 2020. the last couple of "constructive" edits were from 2006-2011 but i'm not sure.
[1]: https://xtools.wmflabs.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Tools/Navi... --andreas
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 11:11 PM Thibaut Payet thibaut120094@outlook.fr wrote:
Hi everyone,
On the French Wikipedia we're currently reworking our help page about redirects and some of us would like to include a section about common misconceptions, especially those described at < https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation_popups...
.
However one user who's used to "fix" redirects is strongly opposed because "this page is from 2006" and it's "unsourced".[1]
So I would like to ask the sysadmins from Wikimedia and the MediaWiki developers who are following this mailing list: is this page created in 2006 still true and relevant in 2020?
Thank you.
-- Kind regards, Thibaut Payet [[User:Thibaut120094]]
[1] < https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=Alaspada&page=Discussion_...
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
While the specifics may have changed over time, the general point of the page is correct -- "fixing" a redirect will use significantly more server time than clicking on one. When you click a redirect, MediaWiki queries the redirect table to see where you should go instead. Reads from the database like this are fast. However, when you edit the page to "fix" a redirect, MediaWiki has to save the edit, update the links tables, re-render the HTML, invalidate the cache, and serve the new HTML, among other things.
From a reader's perspective, there's no performance difference between
clicking a redirect and clicking any other internal link. We're talking milliseconds here, if that. If you wanted to really improve the performance of a page, remove all the images. (Note: do not do this.)
This falls under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_worry_about_performance: let the developers and the operations folk worry about performance. If you're already making an edit to an article and you feel like bypassing a few redirects, go ahead and knock yourself out. But going out of your way to "fix" links to redirects is just a waste of your time.
ACN
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 11:23 PM Andreas Papacharalampous me@apap04.com wrote:
the page was created in 2006 [1], but i don't think it's up to date for 2020. the last couple of "constructive" edits were from 2006-2011 but i'm not sure.
--andreas
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 11:11 PM Thibaut Payet thibaut120094@outlook.fr wrote:
Hi everyone,
On the French Wikipedia we're currently reworking our help page about redirects and some of us would like to include a section about common misconceptions, especially those described at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation_popups/About_fixing_redirects&oldid=988508313.
However one user who's used to "fix" redirects is strongly opposed because "this page is from 2006" and it's "unsourced".[1]
So I would like to ask the sysadmins from Wikimedia and the MediaWiki developers who are following this mailing list: is this page created in 2006 still true and relevant in 2020?
Thank you.
-- Kind regards, Thibaut Payet [[User:Thibaut120094]]
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Thank you very much for your detailed reply.
We tried to convince our friend with your message and WP:PERF but he's still not convinced, he even created a RfC on frwiki which is currently being discussed[1] and we need some more information.
He created these two pages: * https://fr.wikipedia.org/?oldid=177832893&uselang=en (list of redirections) * https://fr.wikipedia.org/?oldid=177847552&uselang=en (list of direct links)
Previewed them and argue that the parser profiling data table shown below the page indicate that there's less CPU time/real time usage with the page using direct links than the one using redirects: "As surprising as it may seem, the page that gives the best result is the one with the direct links. Exactly the opposite of those who want to prohibit the fixes [note: we don't], it is precisely the direct links that give the best results. Go figure."[2]
Does that kind of benchmark makes sense? Is the parser profiler data even relevant here? What exactly is calculated?
Sorry for all these questions but we would be grateful if you could shed some light on this.
Happy holidays, Thibaut Payet [[User:Thibaut120094]]
[1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/?curid=13767430&uselang=en [2] https://fr.wikipedia.org/?diff=prev&oldid=177855343&uselang=en
On 24.11.2020 05:36, AntiCompositeNumber wrote:
While the specifics may have changed over time, the general point of the page is correct -- "fixing" a redirect will use significantly more server time than clicking on one. When you click a redirect, MediaWiki queries the redirect table to see where you should go instead. Reads from the database like this are fast. However, when you edit the page to "fix" a redirect, MediaWiki has to save the edit, update the links tables, re-render the HTML, invalidate the cache, and serve the new HTML, among other things.
From a reader's perspective, there's no performance difference between clicking a redirect and clicking any other internal link. We're talking milliseconds here, if that. If you wanted to really improve the performance of a page, remove all the images. (Note: do not do this.)
This falls under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_worry_about_performance: let the developers and the operations folk worry about performance. If you're already making an edit to an article and you feel like bypassing a few redirects, go ahead and knock yourself out. But going out of your way to "fix" links to redirects is just a waste of your time.
ACN
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 11:23 PM Andreas Papacharalampous me@apap04.com wrote:
the page was created in 2006 [1], but i don't think it's up to date for 2020. the last couple of "constructive" edits were from 2006-2011 but i'm not sure.
--andreas
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 11:11 PM Thibaut Payet thibaut120094@outlook.fr wrote:
Hi everyone,
On the French Wikipedia we're currently reworking our help page about redirects and some of us would like to include a section about common misconceptions, especially those described at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation_popups/About_fixing_redirects&oldid=988508313.
However one user who's used to "fix" redirects is strongly opposed because "this page is from 2006" and it's "unsourced".[1]
So I would like to ask the sysadmins from Wikimedia and the MediaWiki developers who are following this mailing list: is this page created in 2006 still true and relevant in 2020?
Thank you.
-- Kind regards, Thibaut Payet [[User:Thibaut120094]]
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Hey, In general, the performance implications of an edit for fixing redirects heavily outweighs the small improvement of removing a redirect.
The biggest exception to that is main pages of wikis (which redirecting en.wikipedia.org to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_page actually wastes 27 years of Wikipedia readers time every month) [1] so if there is lots of clicks coming for an article from another article (you can find those in clickstream datasets [2]) this might be a good idea to fix but in general I don't think so and it's even more work for the system to re-render the page, update links table, etc.
[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T120085 [2] https://dumps.wikimedia.org/other/clickstream/
On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 3:06 AM Thibaut Payet thibaut120094@outlook.fr wrote:
Thank you very much for your detailed reply.
We tried to convince our friend with your message and WP:PERF but he's still not convinced, he even created a RfC on frwiki which is currently being discussed[1] and we need some more information.
He created these two pages:
redirections)
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/?oldid=177847552&uselang=en (list of direct
links)
Previewed them and argue that the parser profiling data table shown below the page indicate that there's less CPU time/real time usage with the page using direct links than the one using redirects: "As surprising as it may seem, the page that gives the best result is the one with the direct links. Exactly the opposite of those who want to prohibit the fixes [note: we don't], it is precisely the direct links that give the best results. Go figure."[2]
Does that kind of benchmark makes sense? Is the parser profiler data even relevant here? What exactly is calculated?
Sorry for all these questions but we would be grateful if you could shed some light on this.
Happy holidays, Thibaut Payet [[User:Thibaut120094]]
[1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/?curid=13767430&uselang=en [2] https://fr.wikipedia.org/?diff=prev&oldid=177855343&uselang=en
On 24.11.2020 05:36, AntiCompositeNumber wrote:
While the specifics may have changed over time, the general point of the page is correct -- "fixing" a redirect will use significantly more server time than clicking on one. When you click a redirect, MediaWiki queries the redirect table to see where you should go instead. Reads from the database like this are fast. However, when you edit the page to "fix" a redirect, MediaWiki has to save the edit, update the links tables, re-render the HTML, invalidate the cache, and serve the new HTML, among other things.
From a reader's perspective, there's no performance difference between clicking a redirect and clicking any other internal link. We're talking milliseconds here, if that. If you wanted to really improve the performance of a page, remove all the images. (Note: do not do this.)
This falls under <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_worry_about_performance : let the developers and the operations folk worry about performance. If you're already making an edit to an article and you feel like bypassing a few redirects, go ahead and knock yourself out. But going out of your way to "fix" links to redirects is just a waste of your time.
ACN
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 11:23 PM Andreas Papacharalampous me@apap04.com
wrote:
the page was created in 2006 [1], but i don't think it's up to date for
- the last couple of "constructive" edits were from 2006-2011 but i'm
not sure.
[1]:
https://xtools.wmflabs.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Tools/Navi...
--andreas
On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 11:11 PM Thibaut Payet <
thibaut120094@outlook.fr> wrote:
Hi everyone,
On the French Wikipedia we're currently reworking our help page about redirects and some of us would like to include a section about common misconceptions, especially those described at <
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation_popups...
.
However one user who's used to "fix" redirects is strongly opposed because "this page is from 2006" and it's "unsourced".[1]
So I would like to ask the sysadmins from Wikimedia and the MediaWiki developers who are following this mailing list: is this page created in 2006 still true and relevant in 2020?
Thank you.
-- Kind regards, Thibaut Payet [[User:Thibaut120094]]
[1] <
https://sigma.toolforge.org/usersearch.py?name=Alaspada&page=Discussion_...
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org