Hi all!
I believe that for anonymous users, the interface language should be chosen based on their Accept-Language. I think the required code is simple, see the attached diff for a basic sketch that seems to work (really only basic, some issues are ignored, e.g. when a new user is created, his default preferred language should be set to Accept-Language, too).
There are some further issues that should be considered -- e.g. what about Main_Page/Hauptseite/...? What to do with a user preferring some language not supported on the wiki? (Should there be some local setting with a list of supported languages?) Etc.
But I would like to know -- what do you think about the idea? (My initial thought was about the Commons -- users from many Wikipedias go there, only to find that, seemingly, the site is English-only. But their language is just a few clicks away; unfortunately, the clicks have to go through the English interface.)
-- [[ :cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec ]]
On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:16:24 +0100, Petr Kadlec petr.kadlec@gmail.com wrote:
I believe that for anonymous users, the interface language should be chosen based on their Accept-Language. I think the required code is simple, see the attached diff for a basic sketch that seems to work
I'm not sure that the header is often accurate. My cousins in Israel (~16) use only the English version of Windows XP due to localisation problems. (Mixing of right-to-left Hebrew and left-to-right English programs, with the close button on the top-left *or* top-right of a dialog; everything backwards from screenshots with the tray on the bottom-left and start button on the bottom-right, trouble getting PC support from English speakers, etc)
As long as language selection remains on the front page (and that will be up to the wikis), this would be fine for me.
David Monniaux wrote:
Tomer Chachamu wrote:
I'm not sure that the header is often accurate. My cousins in Israel (~16) use only the English version of Windows XP due to localisation problems.
Cannot Internet Explorer be told to request other languages than the Windows default one?
For your information, Firefox is also broken when you want to work with a combination of right to left and left to right. You can for instance upload a file with Farsi and English using IE but not with Firefox. So in many respects IE is preferable.
Bottom line, support for a non standard characterset (seen from a centre periphery point of view - so DO select the wikinews logo for Wikinews :) ) is patchy in all offerings. Thanks, Gerard
On Monday 7. February 2005. 20:33, David Monniaux wrote:
Tomer Chachamu wrote:
I'm not sure that the header is often accurate. My cousins in Israel (~16) use only the English version of Windows XP due to localisation problems.
Cannot Internet Explorer be told to request other languages than the Windows default one?
I think it can, but there are browsers (for example, Konqueror) which can't.
In addition, some people simply don't know about this and don't set the language even though they prefer it, and some people will surf in from Internet cafes located in (to them) foreign countries and so on - you can use Accept-Language as a starting point but you can't really trust it. You can set UI language based on it, but in that case users should always have an option to easily change it.
[snip] you can use Accept-Language as a starting point but you can't really trust it. You can set UI language based on it, but in that case users should always have an option to easily change it.
Just to be clear -- my idea is to add, not to remove. Currently, there is AFAIK _NO_ possibility at all, how an anonymous user could choose the language of the interface. If you visit Commons, then until logging in, the whole interface is in English, and you have to log in using that English interface.
Logged-in users can choose their language in preferences, and I do not want to change that.
(Note that if Accept-Language would be "totally unacceptable", there just has to be some other way to choose interface language by anonymous users, e.g. commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Foobar?lang=cs, or whatever.)
-- [[:cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec ]]
On Tuesday 8. February 2005. 09:32, Petr Kadlec wrote:
[snip] you can use Accept-Language as a starting point but you can't really trust it. You can set UI language based on it, but in that case users should always have an option to easily change it.
Just to be clear -- my idea is to add, not to remove. Currently, there is AFAIK _NO_ possibility at all, how an anonymous user could choose the language of the interface. If you visit Commons, then until logging in, the whole interface is in English, and you have to log in using that English interface.
I agree, and just to make it clear, I think that even anonymous users should be able to choose interface language.
I now like this idea and would support it in a vote. :)
Cannot Internet Explorer be told to request other languages than the Windows default one?
I think it can, but there are browsers (for example, Konqueror) which can't.
I already explained how, although in my opinion it's pretty well hidden.
Are you sure about Konquerer? I would swear the option is available towards the end of the KDE Control Center. That's a massive control panel, so I guess that's well hidden too... ;)
On Tuesday 8. February 2005. 09:32, Petr Kadlec wrote:
[snip] you can use Accept-Language as a starting point but you can't really trust it. You can set UI language based on it, but in that case users should always have an option to easily change it.
Just to be clear -- my idea is to add, not to remove. Currently, there is AFAIK _NO_ possibility at all, how an anonymous user could choose the language of the interface. If you visit Commons, then until logging in, the whole interface is in English, and you have to log in using that English interface.
I agree, and just to make it clear, I think that even anonymous users should be able to choose interface language.
Hi!, thanks for the comments.
I'm not sure that the header is often accurate. My cousins in Israel (~16) use only the English version of Windows XP due to localisation problems. (Mixing of right-to-left Hebrew and left-to-right English programs, with the close button on the top-left *or* top-right of a dialog; everything backwards from screenshots with the tray on the bottom-left and start button on the bottom-right, trouble getting PC support from English speakers, etc)
Fine, the header might not be accurate. Your cousins use English version of Windows, so I guess they are able to understand English at least a bit. And although their preferred language would be Hebrew, they get English on Commons. But as soon as they create an account and log in, they can choose the language in preferences. No problem here. Fine, the header may not be perfect (but do you have a better idea?), but it is IMHO better than presenting English to _everyone_.
As long as language selection remains on the front page (and that will be up to the wikis), this would be fine for me.
The problem is not in the language of the contents, but in the language of interface. There are two reasons why you would visit, say, cs.wikipedia.org: Either you understand Czech and want to read something, or you want to e.g. insert interwiki links. For that, it would be fine if you would be able to create an account without any knowledge of Czech.
And, as I said, the biggest problem for me lies in the international wikis like Meta and (especially) Commons. Every anonymous user (= every user before he/she could get to creating an account) is offered English interface. How can we expect him/her to create an account, if he/she does not understand English at all? Should the help page in each language mention things like "click the second button from the right, then fill in the upper edit box, ..." ?
-- [[:cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec ]]
This might be an idea for commons, or meta. But I would not like to have it on other projects. In my opinion the fact that someone goes to a certain language Wikipedia or Wiktionary is more evidence of their language wishes than their Accept-language.
Andre Engels (who has felt no need to change interface language on the dozens of Wikipedias he has been editing, but would be much interested in a single login)
On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:16:24 +0100, Petr Kadlec petr.kadlec@gmail.com wrote:
I believe that for anonymous users, the interface language should be chosen based on their Accept-Language. I think the required code is simple, see the attached diff for a basic sketch that seems to work (really only basic, some issues are ignored, e.g. when a new user is created, his default preferred language should be set to Accept-Language, too).
There are some further issues that should be considered -- e.g. what about Main_Page/Hauptseite/...? What to do with a user preferring some language not supported on the wiki? (Should there be some local setting with a list of supported languages?) Etc.
But I would like to know -- what do you think about the idea? (My initial thought was about the Commons -- users from many Wikipedias go there, only to find that, seemingly, the site is English-only. But their language is just a few clicks away; unfortunately, the clicks have to go through the English interface.)
-- [[ :cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec ]]
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:00:18 +0100, Andre Engels andreengels@gmail.com wrote:
This might be an idea for commons, or meta.
That is my whole idea.
But I would not like to have it on other projects. In my opinion the fact that someone goes to a certain language Wikipedia or Wiktionary is more evidence of their language wishes than their Accept-language.
Yes, as I said, there are still issues to solve -- I think that MediaWiki code used on Commons is no different from the rest, so the code should handle both options, probably using some LocalSettings switch.
(who has felt no need to change interface language on the dozens of Wikipedias he has been editing, but would be much interested in a single login)
You are of course right. Not to say that with the current state of LanguageXx files, there is no reason I should switch to cs: on en:, because I am able to understand English better than that half-pseudo-Czech, half-untranslated-English I would receive with the outdated LanguageCs.php file.
-- [[ :cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec ]]
Andre Engels wrote:
This might be an idea for commons, or meta. But I would not like to have it on other projects. In my opinion the fact that someone goes to a certain language Wikipedia or Wiktionary is more evidence of their language wishes than their Accept-language.
Andre Engels (who has felt no need to change interface language on the dozens of Wikipedias he has been editing, but would be much interested in a single login)
I think the suggestion is that the interface language should be chosen as follows, in the order given: 1: User preference of logged in user, if set 2: Language of the Wiki itself, if one is defined (all Wikipedias, Wiktionaries, etc.), if 1 is not defined. 3: Accept-language of their browser, if neither 1 or 2 is defined 4: English, if their Accept-language is not supported (on the basis that it is the world's most common language, counting both first and second language users)
This seems like a pretty safe bet, as it should meet the principle of least astonishment for the largest possible number of users.
-- Neil
wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org