On 08/07/2015 11:43 AM, Oliver Keyes wrote:
Thank you for drafting this up, Matt. Who's "we" here?
In that case, "we" meant the Wikimedia technical community (in collaboration with other related groups at WMF). Several people have already participated, but we need more. See e.g. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T90908
Thanks,
Matt Flaschen
On 8/7/15, Matthew Flaschen mflaschen@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 08/07/2015 11:43 AM, Oliver Keyes wrote:
Thank you for drafting this up, Matt. Who's "we" here?
In that case, "we" meant the Wikimedia technical community (in collaboration with other related groups at WMF). Several people have already participated, but we need more. See e.g. https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T90908
Thanks,
Matt Flaschen
To be honest, I don't like using "We" in that manner, unless the Wikimedia technical community (For various definitions of that rather ambiguous terms) has discussed the issue and come to agreement.
The "We" is clearly a group of people who met up at Wikimania and thought this would be a good idea. Which is fine, as that's usually how most good ideas start. But there's a large difference between the Wikimedia community proposing something to ? vs a subset of the community proposing the idea to the whole of the community.
-- bawolff
Yeah, I'm with Brian. I consider myself a member of the Wikimedia technical community and I did not yet get an opportunity to participate in the process of developing this document (which appears to have been mostly offline at Wikimania).
Isn't this the point of this email chain and talk page, though? To open this up to the broader community for development...?
The idea was picked up and developed in wikimania and is now being proposed as a starting point for development by the tech community on a broader scale. Seems to allow for the involvement you're interested in.
I don't mean to be rude here at all, but it sounds like instead of lamenting the fact people weren't involved, we can, in fact and in effect, just get involved.
An I missing something? On Aug 8, 2015 2:51 PM, "Bartosz Dziewoński" matma.rex@gmail.com wrote:
Yeah, I'm with Brian. I consider myself a member of the Wikimedia technical community and I did not yet get an opportunity to participate in the process of developing this document (which appears to have been mostly offline at Wikimania).
-- Bartosz Dziewoński
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:43 AM, Moriel Schottlender moriel@gmail.com wrote:
An I missing something?
When an employee of the WMF starts a new topic on the mailing list with the words "we are" and "binding", it comes off with the wrong connotation, especially considering the "we" was clarified to mean the "Wikimedia technical community".
It sounds more like "you've already decided to do this" rather than "we thought this might be a good idea and want everybody else's input". You should naturally expect people to speak out against something when you make it sound like their opinion has already been decided upon.
*-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science
Is there a [[Wikitech:LAME]] somewhere to list metatalks about the talk? :-)
No, stop and re-read Matt's email assuming good faith. It doesn't "come off with the wrong connotation" or "It sounds more like "you've already decided to do this"".
***We're in the process of*** developing a code of conduct...
...***This will be*** binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-related technical spaces ...
***Please participate*** at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft . ***Suggestions are welcome*** here or at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Dra... .
You say "You should naturally expect people to speak out against something when you make it sound like their opinion has already been decided upon.", and that's just justifying unjustifiable negative behaviour. Nobody has made it sound as if any opinion has been decided. Read the first email again.
Matt's email is a well intentioned email wanting to get people involved so that we can all participate in creating a great CoC, so lets try and be helpful.
I fully support the effort, thanks folks for kickstarting it. On Aug 9, 2015 8:51 AM, "Tyler Romeo" tylerromeo@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:43 AM, Moriel Schottlender moriel@gmail.com wrote:
An I missing something?
When an employee of the WMF starts a new topic on the mailing list with the words "we are" and "binding", it comes off with the wrong connotation, especially considering the "we" was clarified to mean the "Wikimedia technical community".
It sounds more like "you've already decided to do this" rather than "we thought this might be a good idea and want everybody else's input". You should naturally expect people to speak out against something when you make it sound like their opinion has already been decided upon.
*-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On 09/08/15 15:50, Joaquin Oltra Hernandez wrote:
No, stop and re-read Matt's email assuming good faith. It doesn't "come off with the wrong connotation" or "It sounds more like "you've already decided to do this"".
***We're in the process of*** developing a code of conduct... ...***This will be*** binding, and apply to all Wikimedia-relatedtechnical spaces ...
***Please participate*** athttps://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Draft . ***Suggestions are welcome*** here or at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Code_of_conduct_for_technical_spaces/Dra... .
You say "You should naturally expect people to speak out against something when you make it sound like their opinion has already been decided upon.", and that's just justifying unjustifiable negative behaviour. Nobody has made it sound as if any opinion has been decided. Read the first email again.
Matt's email is a well intentioned email wanting to get people involved so that we can all participate in creating a great CoC, so lets try and be helpful.
I fully support the effort, thanks folks for kickstarting it.
Unfortunately, you're both right in this case.
I can see where Matt is coming from, and his words are, after reading your comment, indeed consistent with that intention.
But, while I can only give myself as an example, that's not how I think it reads to someone who was not already familiar with the situation -- my first impression on reading those words was the same as Tyler's. It might help if Matt followed up with another email to make it clear that the "we thought this might be a good idea and want everybody else's input" interpretation is the one intended.
Neil
On Aug 9, 2015 8:51 AM, "Tyler Romeo" tylerromeo@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:43 AM, Moriel Schottlender moriel@gmail.com wrote:
An I missing something?
When an employee of the WMF starts a new topic on the mailing list with the words "we are" and "binding", it comes off with the wrong connotation, especially considering the "we" was clarified to mean the "Wikimedia technical community".
It sounds more like "you've already decided to do this" rather than "we thought this might be a good idea and want everybody else's input". You should naturally expect people to speak out against something when you make it sound like their opinion has already been decided upon.
*-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On 08/09/2015 11:28 AM, Neil Harris wrote:
But, while I can only give myself as an example, that's not how I think it reads to someone who was not already familiar with the situation -- my first impression on reading those words was the same as Tyler's. It might help if Matt followed up with another email to make it clear that the "we thought this might be a good idea and want everybody else's input" interpretation is the one intended.
My wording should have been better.
What I really mean is, "Please participate in working on the draft and suggesting ideas".
As far as how it started, it was actually online in February (https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T90908). Like a lot of work, it got more refined over time.
Wikimania was not the beginning or the end. It was the middle, which is exactly why I'm asking people to participate now.
Matt Flaschen
wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org