This message is a solicit of further consideration of Bugzilla topic #13065
which is WONTFIX as of now.
Please read Bugzulla #13065 and this mail in detail.
Title changed to "13065 Pressing Enter in edit summary should not save the
page".
#13065 and this mail below all story and I still ask or solicit further
consideration for long run of
Wikimedia foundation sites.
As far as title tell every thing, improve or FIX must be taken.
Many Japanese Wikimedia sites user is facing this matter as a problem.
How this is serious problem is depends on user by user, but regardless of
weight of problem feel by each user,
it is a problem even it is small.
Some feel problem is serious.
As a nature of Japanese people, most people hesitates rise a problem for
fundamental Wikimedia sites
user interface designation logic or algorism by program, but many user feel
save page at
edit summery is very inconvenient designation.
You can understand the point I am saying by reading #13065 and all exchanged
message below.
To: wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
CC To: Toni Despla
think the problem is this double function of the Enter
key. If you're
selecting a word, the application shouldn't get a Enter character. How do
you
work with Word or Excel? Or better yet, a bare program like notepad. Do you
need to use backspace after selecting each word? If instead of submitting
you're previewing, things will only be marginally better. Realoading the
page
per word is not going to scale.
Perhaps you're right and Wikimedia sites shouldn't do anything, and it is a
bug of your browser. Which one are you using?
In case of Word or Excel, entry within document in value on Excel can be
corrected by back space or
delete key even on Notepad.
Even user make mistake with IME ( Input Method Editor) it is not serious
because it does not affect other party, it is a miss takes within own file
with in his computer.
In case file save into Hard disk, erroneous Enter key press may lead to
wrong file name, but this is still
error within his PC.
In case of Google search,
When as far as "Cursor " placed in a search word entry frame or box, "
Google search" button is shaded and erroneous Enter key hit ( under IME)
goes to search for wrong topics.
is the same designation to Edit Summary and " save Page" of
Wikipedia.
However, big difference is that Google is just search and user entry DOES
NOT Change the content of Google.
Erroneous Enter key hit in Edit summary on Wikipedia DOES change database
of Wikipedia server without
Show Preview.
To talk on user DOES change or DOES NOT change is a big difference and
Wikipedia and Google is quite different site in user usage.
Despla, told me.
Thank you.
Namazu-tron.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Permissions - Wikimedia Commons"
<permissions-commons(a)wikimedia.org>
To: "-----" <3tx38k(a)bma.biglobe.ne.jp>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Ticket#2007111110007993] Request or solicit
Dear 3tx38k,
Thank you for your mail.
3tx38k(a)bma.biglobe.ne.jp wrote:
To Toni Despla
1.
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13065
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Administrators#Request_layout_c…
Thank you for your response.
With assumption of you read precisely Bug # 13065
up to comment #17,
Comment #17 From Brion Vibber 2008-02-27 18:12:12 UTC -------
Putting back to WONTFIX. This will not change.
" WONTFIX"
I understand it as "WILL NOT FIX".
Yes, WONTFIX means that it won't change. Plase note that this action has
been
taken by the lead developer. There's a zero probability of the default
action
being changed globalwide (maybe personalized solutions could be
developed).
==Today's response-1:
Above is the current conditions and the subject is on the
Village pump as well.
However, I am not responding English edition above village pump and
Japanese
edition village pump, because I simply do not want let people know I am
discussing with Bugzilla # 13065
where people know my e-mail address.
I am afraid Bugzilla is the proper place to deal with software issues. If
you
don't want your email to be shown, you can use a throw away email.
==Today's response-2:
Input method editor,Keyboard layout, ATOK, List of input methods for UNIX
platforms,
CJK characters, Complex text layout,
Above are related articles on Wikipedia. The problem is not only
Japanese
language key entry, but also relates very huge matter on many languages.
See also "see Also" of each article.
> As you read latest edition of #13065, this
problem is common to all
language
edition.
I know. But also take into account that users not using IME may want to
save
by pressing Enter (as i do).
==Today's response-3:
Yes, you said "(as i do)", because it is designed so then you use Enter
key
in edit summary for save page.
Enter in edit summary force save page is designed since Wikipedia and
other
site opened, I guess.
I believe that the point I rise "Pressing Enter in edit summary should
not
save the page" is
may be first time for all web site designers of Wikimedia Foundation,
Inc.
#13065 , Comment #10 From Huji changed, and the title describes all the
thing.
==Today's response-4:
You are saying that "Of course, the proper way would be the wiki
detecting
the input method and adapting for it.".
This is very much miss conception.
As you understand with "response-2" above, many language may have
different
"input method Editor" or alike subprogram.
With context in talk with you, Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. web site will
exist for ever, and world become more global communication with internet,
there would be highly possible that new type of "input method Editor" is
invented in long long range of future.
( By the way, Japanese [[Kanji]] etc are using two bytes, where English
alphabet use one byte.)
It depends on the codification. On Utf-8 Kanji uses 3 octets.
Input Method Editor or similar subprogram is in
between keyboard and
application program.
Wikipedia web site is "application program" just the same to Microsoft
"Word" or "Excel".
Generally, application software does not need to detect or know wheatear
Input Method Editor is feeding input characters after converting it from
Keyboard.
Japanese key board has a particular key and we
are use this key to on/off
input Method Editor function. When it is off, keyboard works exactly the
same to your Keyboard, Input method Editor simply pass through letter,
logically.
I now explain briefly how Japanese [[Kanji]], for example, made by
Keyboard.
We type in Kanji pronounce with [[Romaji]], or [[Hiragana]], then press
"space key" so, Input Method Editor show up several candidate of
corresponding [[Kanji]] pull down list, to advance and point candidate
kanji
list, we press space key until reach to exact Kanji, then press Enter key
to
decide matching Kanji.
This Japanese writing and editing take place in edit summary as well as
article edit.
If our writing is mixed with Kanji and English word with alphabet,
Enter key decide kanji from pull down list, then particular key is
pressed
input method editor change mode from on to off, then type English word.
In such way, pressing Enter key is two function, that is decide Kanji,
and
Line feed and delimiter of sentence. During making Japanese sentence
with
mixed English word, pressing "Enter key" and pressing "key for
on/off" is
very much lead erroneous operation more that you imagine.
I believe such operation and erroneous operation might happen on other
language user.
I think the problem is this double function of the Enter key. If you're
selecting a word, the application shouldn't get a Enter character. How do
you
work with Word or Excel? Or better yet, a bare program like notepad. Do
you
need to use backspace after selecting each word? If instead of submitting
you're previewing, things will only be marginally better. Realoading the
page
per word is not going to scale.
Perhaps you're right and Wikimedia sites shouldn't do anything, and it is
a
bug of your browser. Which one are you using?
From the point of view of less load or lessen
storage in server(s)
without
erroneously edit content, "Show Preview" might be a recommended step
rather
than go to "save page" right after edit summary entry.
Server storage is not a problem. The web site accesibility IS a problem.
Now, the discussing point is well summarize that
as subject "Pressing
Enter
in edit summary should not save the page" .
If web site continued forever, such inconvenience should not continue
forever.
Think about millions of people will participate to edit the site
worldwide,
even English or English language like do not use Input Method Editor, the
such inconvenience continue forever is not attitude of Wikimedia
Foundation,
Inc who is back up by donation from world.
Please understand that I am talking with you on
e-mail rather than
Bugzilla
nor Village pump, because the matter is very fundamental position or
attitude of Wikimedia Foundation, Inc itself if such condition not
improved.
There is a good reason if you change NOT to save page by Enter in summary
by
some change in HTML web site designation, Web site simply mention
newly changed that "Recommending Show Preview step, so that save page
will
not work by enter key in edit summary.
Please note that -as the bottom disclaimer says- i'm am a simply
volunteer. I
am not a Foundation employee nor a developer. I also can't decide on this
matters more than any other user.
If you want to contact with the mediawiki developers, there's mailing list
at
wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org where you can bring this up (your email
will be
shown).
I do not accept "WONTFIX". Fix or not
fix is not majority rule; it is
just
your attitude for user and IP user with various languages.
Finally, may I ask you silly question that all above is rise up to
Village
pump?
Thank you. Namazu-tron
Yours sincerely,
Toni Despla
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