Hello, wikitech-l@wikipedia.org members,
From: Wikipedia user: Namazu-tron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Namazu-tron
This message is a solicit of further consideration of Bugzilla topic #13065 which is WONTFIX as of now. Please read Bugzulla #13065 and this mail in detail. https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13065 Title changed to "13065 Pressing Enter in edit summary should not save the page". #13065 and this mail below all story and I still ask or solicit further consideration for long run of Wikimedia foundation sites. As far as title tell every thing, improve or FIX must be taken. Many Japanese Wikimedia sites user is facing this matter as a problem. How this is serious problem is depends on user by user, but regardless of weight of problem feel by each user, it is a problem even it is small. Some feel problem is serious. As a nature of Japanese people, most people hesitates rise a problem for fundamental Wikimedia sites user interface designation logic or algorism by program, but many user feel save page at edit summery is very inconvenient designation. You can understand the point I am saying by reading #13065 and all exchanged message below.
To: wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org CC To: Toni Despla
think the problem is this double function of the Enter key. If you're selecting a word, the application shouldn't get a Enter character. How do you work with Word or Excel? Or better yet, a bare program like notepad. Do you need to use backspace after selecting each word? If instead of submitting you're previewing, things will only be marginally better. Realoading the page per word is not going to scale. Perhaps you're right and Wikimedia sites shouldn't do anything, and it is a bug of your browser. Which one are you using?
In case of Word or Excel, entry within document in value on Excel can be corrected by back space or delete key even on Notepad. Even user make mistake with IME ( Input Method Editor) it is not serious because it does not affect other party, it is a miss takes within own file with in his computer. In case file save into Hard disk, erroneous Enter key press may lead to wrong file name, but this is still error within his PC. In case of Google search, http://www.google.com/ When as far as "Cursor " placed in a search word entry frame or box, " Google search" button is shaded and erroneous Enter key hit ( under IME) goes to search for wrong topics. Google.com is the same designation to Edit Summary and " save Page" of Wikipedia.
However, big difference is that Google is just search and user entry DOES NOT Change the content of Google. Erroneous Enter key hit in Edit summary on Wikipedia DOES change database of Wikipedia server without Show Preview. To talk on user DOES change or DOES NOT change is a big difference and Wikipedia and Google is quite different site in user usage.
From now, I will talk with wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org as you, Toni
Despla, told me.
Thank you. Namazu-tron.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Permissions - Wikimedia Commons" permissions-commons@wikimedia.org To: "-----" 3tx38k@bma.biglobe.ne.jp Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [Ticket#2007111110007993] Request or solicit
Dear 3tx38k,
Thank you for your mail.
3tx38k@bma.biglobe.ne.jp wrote:
To Toni Despla
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13065 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Administrators#Request_layout_ch...
Thank you for your response. With assumption of you read precisely Bug # 13065 up to comment #17,
Comment #17 From Brion Vibber 2008-02-27 18:12:12 UTC ------- Putting back to WONTFIX. This will not change. " WONTFIX" I understand it as "WILL NOT FIX".
Yes, WONTFIX means that it won't change. Plase note that this action has been taken by the lead developer. There's a zero probability of the default action being changed globalwide (maybe personalized solutions could be developed).
==Today's response-1: Above is the current conditions and the subject is on the Village pump as well. However, I am not responding English edition above village pump and Japanese edition village pump, because I simply do not want let people know I am discussing with Bugzilla # 13065 where people know my e-mail address.
I am afraid Bugzilla is the proper place to deal with software issues. If you don't want your email to be shown, you can use a throw away email.
==Today's response-2: Input method editor,Keyboard layout, ATOK, List of input methods for UNIX platforms, CJK characters, Complex text layout,
Above are related articles on Wikipedia. The problem is not only Japanese language key entry, but also relates very huge matter on many languages. See also "see Also" of each article.
As you read latest edition of #13065, this problem is common to all
language
edition.
I know. But also take into account that users not using IME may want to save by pressing Enter (as i do).
==Today's response-3: Yes, you said "(as i do)", because it is designed so then you use Enter key in edit summary for save page.
Enter in edit summary force save page is designed since Wikipedia and other site opened, I guess.
I believe that the point I rise "Pressing Enter in edit summary should not save the page" is
may be first time for all web site designers of Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. #13065 , Comment #10 From Huji changed, and the title describes all the thing.
==Today's response-4: You are saying that "Of course, the proper way would be the wiki detecting the input method and adapting for it.". This is very much miss conception. As you understand with "response-2" above, many language may have different "input method Editor" or alike subprogram.
With context in talk with you, Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. web site will exist for ever, and world become more global communication with internet, there would be highly possible that new type of "input method Editor" is invented in long long range of future.
( By the way, Japanese [[Kanji]] etc are using two bytes, where English alphabet use one byte.)
It depends on the codification. On Utf-8 Kanji uses 3 octets.
Input Method Editor or similar subprogram is in between keyboard and application program.
Wikipedia web site is "application program" just the same to Microsoft "Word" or "Excel".
Generally, application software does not need to detect or know wheatear Input Method Editor is feeding input characters after converting it from Keyboard.
Japanese key board has a particular key and we are use this key to on/off input Method Editor function. When it is off, keyboard works exactly the same to your Keyboard, Input method Editor simply pass through letter, logically.
I now explain briefly how Japanese [[Kanji]], for example, made by Keyboard. We type in Kanji pronounce with [[Romaji]], or [[Hiragana]], then press "space key" so, Input Method Editor show up several candidate of corresponding [[Kanji]] pull down list, to advance and point candidate kanji list, we press space key until reach to exact Kanji, then press Enter key to decide matching Kanji.
This Japanese writing and editing take place in edit summary as well as article edit. If our writing is mixed with Kanji and English word with alphabet, Enter key decide kanji from pull down list, then particular key is pressed input method editor change mode from on to off, then type English word.
In such way, pressing Enter key is two function, that is decide Kanji, and Line feed and delimiter of sentence. During making Japanese sentence with mixed English word, pressing "Enter key" and pressing "key for on/off" is very much lead erroneous operation more that you imagine.
I believe such operation and erroneous operation might happen on other language user.
I think the problem is this double function of the Enter key. If you're selecting a word, the application shouldn't get a Enter character. How do you work with Word or Excel? Or better yet, a bare program like notepad. Do you need to use backspace after selecting each word? If instead of submitting you're previewing, things will only be marginally better. Realoading the page per word is not going to scale. Perhaps you're right and Wikimedia sites shouldn't do anything, and it is a bug of your browser. Which one are you using?
From the point of view of less load or lessen storage in server(s) without erroneously edit content, "Show Preview" might be a recommended step rather than go to "save page" right after edit summary entry.
Server storage is not a problem. The web site accesibility IS a problem.
Now, the discussing point is well summarize that as subject "Pressing Enter in edit summary should not save the page" .
If web site continued forever, such inconvenience should not continue forever.
Think about millions of people will participate to edit the site worldwide, even English or English language like do not use Input Method Editor, the such inconvenience continue forever is not attitude of Wikimedia Foundation, Inc who is back up by donation from world.
Please understand that I am talking with you on e-mail rather than Bugzilla nor Village pump, because the matter is very fundamental position or attitude of Wikimedia Foundation, Inc itself if such condition not improved.
There is a good reason if you change NOT to save page by Enter in summary by some change in HTML web site designation, Web site simply mention
newly changed that "Recommending Show Preview step, so that save page will not work by enter key in edit summary.
Please note that -as the bottom disclaimer says- i'm am a simply volunteer. I am not a Foundation employee nor a developer. I also can't decide on this matters more than any other user. If you want to contact with the mediawiki developers, there's mailing list at wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org where you can bring this up (your email will be shown).
I do not accept "WONTFIX". Fix or not fix is not majority rule; it is just your attitude for user and IP user with various languages.
Finally, may I ask you silly question that all above is rise up to Village pump?
Thank you. Namazu-tron
Yours sincerely, Toni Despla
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2008/3/6 3tx38k@bma.biglobe.ne.jp:
This message is a solicit of further consideration of Bugzilla topic #13065 which is WONTFIX as of now. Please read Bugzulla #13065 and this mail in detail. https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13065
As I have responded on the bug, I suggest that the Japanese Wikipedia use a custom script to suppress browser enter handling for input. I gave a simple script that can be used as a basis to achieve that effect by anyone who knows a little JavaScript. I also suggest you file a bug with Firefox. This behavior will definitely not be changed in any way on our side for wikis that are in English, German, etc.
Simetrical wrote:
2008/3/6 3tx38k@bma.biglobe.ne.jp:
This message is a solicit of further consideration of Bugzilla topic #13065 which is WONTFIX as of now. Please read Bugzulla #13065 and this mail in detail. https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13065
As I have responded on the bug, I suggest that the Japanese Wikipedia use a custom script to suppress browser enter handling for input. I gave a simple script that can be used as a basis to achieve that effect by anyone who knows a little JavaScript. I also suggest you file a bug with Firefox. This behavior will definitely not be changed in any way on our side for wikis that are in English, German, etc.
I should note there is one possibility for change --
It's been sometimes suggested to change the summary fields from a small, one-line field to a larger, potentially multi-line field. If this were done, then hitting enter in the summary field would just add a line break.
However I must say I'm a bit reluctant on that myself. But if there's a lot of interest in moving that direction, we can talk about it.
See the fun list of summary-length-related entries: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=4714&hide_resol...
-- brion vibber (brion @ wikimedia.org)
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org wrote:
I should note there is one possibility for change --
It's been sometimes suggested to change the summary fields from a small, one-line field to a larger, potentially multi-line field. If this were done, then hitting enter in the summary field would just add a line break.
However I must say I'm a bit reluctant on that myself. But if there's a lot of interest in moving that direction, we can talk about it.
I was actually thinking of adding that as an option, for sites that like more verbose summaries, after we had un-hardcoded the maximum length. Max summary length is most reasonably a policy issue that should be decided per-wiki. And needless to say, if your max summary length is 10,000 and you really mean that, you don't want to provide a one-line field.
See the fun list of summary-length-related entries: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/showdependencytree.cgi?id=4714&hide_resol...
Neat, didn't know about any of those.
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