Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

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Quim Gil

16 Oct 2012 16 Oct '12

9:42 p.m.

Hi, what about having Wikimedia features as organization in Ohloh? The proposal is interesting considering the current state of things: MediaWiki seems to be stalled with the SVN to Git migration, and it is close impossible to find out what other projects come from this community. This would help or quest on community metrics, so here goes my humble +1. I also volunteer with some work, basically following the steps of https://github.com/wikimedia and pinging Sumana / here for anything else. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 18:22:54 +0000 From: Rich Sands <rsands(a)blackducksoftware.com> To: metrics-wg(a)theopensourceway.org <metrics-wg(a)theopensourceway.org> Hi all, As I mentioned here recently, we're rolling out a new feature on Ohloh next week I thought might be interesting to this list. We're adding rollups of projects into "Organizations", so project contributors and others could see for example all the projects in the FooBar Foundation, which ones are most active, the most active contributors, year over year summary statistics, etc. I know many of you or folks in your organizations have rolled your own metrics for watching your foundation's projects and their activity. This feature isn't intended to replace any of that, but rather to provide a view into how organizations are contributing to and influencing FOSS. We've spoken with a number of you who've expressed a need for this, and hope this new feature can be a valuable resource. We're rolling this out as a Beta feature and would love to get your feedback. There are two aspects we're looking at: which organizations steward which projects, and also which organizations contribute to which projects through developers affiliated with those organizations, whether they're for-profit, non-profit, governmental, or educational. Initially we're concentrating on the first aspect - projects in organizations. In a near-term iteration we'll add in the contribution bit, but for now we're not showing stats on which projects an organization contributes to. If you would like a preview of this feature before it is released, let me know and I'll send you a URL and a name/password combo so you can check it out. And if you'd like your organization to be one of the featured ones when we open this up, I'd be thrilled to add you. All I need is an organization name, a short description, a logo (if available), a homepage URL for the organization, and a list of projects to include. If your projects aren't already on Ohloh, I can help you add them as well. We're keen to make this useful, and we're rolling it out in a fairly raw state, so that the FOSS community can help it evolve. Also, please don't post about or publicize this new feature before it comes out next week. Looking forward to hearing from you! -- rms Rich Sands Director of Developer Communities Black Duck Software, Inc. rsands(a)blackducksoftware.com <mailto:rsands@blackducksoftware.com> Cell: +1 617-283-0027 www.ohloh.net <http://www.ohloh.net>

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Tomasz Finc

17 Oct 17 Oct

5:30 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

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Tomasz Finc

6:49 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

And here are the links with relevant stats https://www.ohloh.net/p/WikipediaMobile https://www.ohloh.net/p/WLMMobile --tomasz On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Tomasz Finc <tfinc(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

...

I like this as it generally raises the visibility of our projets. Having a top lovel *and* up to date view these days is next to impossible unless you follow multiple mailing lists and constantly read the monthly engineering reports. As a test I added our WLM and Wikipedia Cordova apps to Ohloh to see what they would look like. It would be far simpler if we could be added as an organization so that these get added automatically. --tomasz On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Quim Gil <quimgil(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, what about having Wikimedia features as organization in Ohloh? > > The proposal is interesting considering the current state of things: > MediaWiki seems to be stalled with the SVN to Git migration, and it is close > impossible to find out what other projects come from this community. > > This would help or quest on community metrics, so here goes my humble +1. I > also volunteer with some work, basically following the steps of > https://github.com/wikimedia and pinging Sumana / here for anything else. > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 18:22:54 +0000 > From: Rich Sands <rsands(a)blackducksoftware.com> > To: metrics-wg(a)theopensourceway.org <metrics-wg(a)theopensourceway.org> > > > > Hi all, > > As I mentioned here recently, we're rolling out a new feature on Ohloh > next week I thought might be interesting to this list. We're adding > rollups of projects into "Organizations", so project contributors and > others could see for example all the projects in the FooBar Foundation, > which ones are most active, the most active contributors, year over year > summary statistics, etc. I know many of you or folks in your > organizations have rolled your own metrics for watching your > foundation's projects and their activity. This feature isn't intended to > replace any of that, but rather to provide a view into how organizations > are contributing to and influencing FOSS. We've spoken with a number of > you who've expressed a need for this, and hope this new feature can be a > valuable resource. > > We're rolling this out as a Beta feature and would love to get your > feedback. There are two aspects we're looking at: which organizations > steward which projects, and also which organizations contribute to which > projects through developers affiliated with those organizations, whether > they're for-profit, non-profit, governmental, or educational. Initially > we're concentrating on the first aspect - projects in organizations. In > a near-term iteration we'll add in the contribution bit, but for now > we're not showing stats on which projects an organization contributes to. > > If you would like a preview of this feature before it is released, let > me know and I'll send you a URL and a name/password combo so you can > check it out. And if you'd like your organization to be one of the > featured ones when we open this up, I'd be thrilled to add you. All I > need is an organization name, a short description, a logo (if > available), a homepage URL for the organization, and a list of projects > to include. If your projects aren't already on Ohloh, I can help you add > them as well. > > We're keen to make this useful, and we're rolling it out in a fairly raw > state, so that the FOSS community can help it evolve. Also, please don't > post about or publicize this new feature before it comes out next week. > Looking forward to hearing from you! > > -- rms > > Rich Sands > Director of Developer Communities > Black Duck Software, Inc. > rsands(a)blackducksoftware.com <mailto:rsands@blackducksoftware.com> > Cell: +1 617-283-0027 > www.ohloh.net <http://www.ohloh.net> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikitech-l mailing list > Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Quim Gil

18 Oct 18 Oct

4:11 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

On 10/17/2012 11:49 AM, Tomasz Finc wrote:

...

And here are the links with relevant stats https://www.ohloh.net/p/WikipediaMobile https://www.ohloh.net/p/WLMMobile

These projects point to https://github.com/wikimedia/* For sanity purposes, would it make sense to agree that Wikimedia projects in Ohloh should point to their canonical locations at Gerrit (unless they are only in GitHub, of course)? -- Quim

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--tomasz On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Tomasz Finc <tfinc(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

_______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Tomasz Finc

4:52 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

These are only on gerrit till we can test replication and have pull request support. On Oct 18, 2012 9:12 AM, "Quim Gil" <quimgil(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On 10/17/2012 11:49 AM, Tomasz Finc wrote:

And here are the links with relevant stats https://www.ohloh.net/p/**WikipediaMobile<https://www.ohloh.net/p/Wikipe… https://www.ohloh.net/p/**WLMMobile <https://www.ohloh.net/p/WLMMobile>

--tomasz On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Tomasz Finc <tfinc(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

Hi, what about having Wikimedia features as organization in Ohloh? The proposal is interesting considering the current state of things: MediaWiki seems to be stalled with the SVN to Git migration, and it is close impossible to find out what other projects come from this community. This would help or quest on community metrics, so here goes my humble +1. I also volunteer with some work, basically following the steps of https://github.com/wikimedia and pinging Sumana / here for anything else. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 18:22:54 +0000 From: Rich Sands <rsands(a)blackducksoftware.com> To: metrics-wg@theopensourceway.**org<metrics-wg@theopensourceway.org>< metrics-wg(a)theopensourceway.**org <metrics-wg(a)theopensourceway.org>> Hi all, As I mentioned here recently, we're rolling out a new feature on Ohloh next week I thought might be interesting to this list. We're adding rollups of projects into "Organizations", so project contributors and others could see for example all the projects in the FooBar Foundation, which ones are most active, the most active contributors, year over year summary statistics, etc. I know many of you or folks in your organizations have rolled your own metrics for watching your foundation's projects and their activity. This feature isn't intended to replace any of that, but rather to provide a view into how organizations are contributing to and influencing FOSS. We've spoken with a number of you who've expressed a need for this, and hope this new feature can be a valuable resource. We're rolling this out as a Beta feature and would love to get your feedback. There are two aspects we're looking at: which organizations steward which projects, and also which organizations contribute to which projects through developers affiliated with those organizations, whether they're for-profit, non-profit, governmental, or educational. Initially we're concentrating on the first aspect - projects in organizations. In a near-term iteration we'll add in the contribution bit, but for now we're not showing stats on which projects an organization contributes to. If you would like a preview of this feature before it is released, let me know and I'll send you a URL and a name/password combo so you can check it out. And if you'd like your organization to be one of the featured ones when we open this up, I'd be thrilled to add you. All I need is an organization name, a short description, a logo (if available), a homepage URL for the organization, and a list of projects to include. If your projects aren't already on Ohloh, I can help you add them as well. We're keen to make this useful, and we're rolling it out in a fairly raw state, so that the FOSS community can help it evolve. Also, please don't post about or publicize this new feature before it comes out next week. Looking forward to hearing from you! -- rms Rich Sands Director of Developer Communities Black Duck Software, Inc. rsands(a)blackducksoftware.com <mailto:rsands@**blackducksoftware.com<rsands@blackducksoftware.com> > Cell: +1 617-283-0027 www.ohloh.net <http://www.ohloh.net> ______________________________**_________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l<https://lists.…

______________________________**_________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l<https://lists.…

Quim Gil

19 Oct 19 Oct

3:11 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

Hi, the Wikimedia Foundation pages at Ohloh are starting to look nice. They are not public since this new feature of Ohloh is only available in a stage server. We need to make sure that no project is missing. I have compiled the list that Ohloh is currently aware of at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil/Ohloh (pasted below for convenience) There are projects missing, like * Limn - https://github.com/wikimedia/limn Can you please help checking out the list and filling the gaps? The wiki page has two sections, one for projects already in Ohloh but no linked to the Wikimedia Foundation and projects that are missing at Ohloh altogether. Question: there are projects available in gerrit.wikimedia.org and github.com/wikimedia: should we default to the gerrit repository in these cases or do you prefer to default to GitHub? -- Quim

Tomasz Finc

6:43 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

I added a couple of highly visible but missing projects from github. --tomasz On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 8:11 AM, Quim Gil <quimgil(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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Platonides

20 Oct 20 Oct

9:20 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

On 18/10/12 18:52, Tomasz Finc wrote:

...

These are only on gerrit till we can test replication and have pull request support.

So you want to be only on github and drop wmf server? That's a very bad move. Those repositories fly out of the radar. Not only do people not know about things which are put there. I also remember looking for some project that I *expected* to be there, and failing. (It was indeed in github, but in a completely different place [user]) PHP has also seen similar problems with their pecl projects.

Tomasz Finc

22 Oct 22 Oct

5:20 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

That should have said These are only on github till we can test replication and have pull request support in gerrit. --tomasz On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM, Platonides <Platonides(a)gmail.com> wrote:

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On 18/10/12 18:52, Tomasz Finc wrote:

These are only on gerrit till we can test replication and have pull request support.

Quim Gil

6:58 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

On 10/19/2012 11:43 AM, Tomasz Finc wrote:

...

I added a couple of highly visible but missing projects from github.

Thank you! Question: does anybody have a problem if MediaWiki extensions are listed as own projects in Ohloh as opposed to be aggregated to the MediaWiki project? https://www.ohloh.net/p/mediawiki/enlistments The division is cleaner, more accurate, provides more data for each extensioin and allows the maintainers of those extensions to manage their corresponding projects in Ohloh if they wish. I have time and my priority these days is working on community metrics, so I can do this work right away.

...

> We need to make sure that no project is missing. I have compiled the list > that Ohloh is currently aware of at > > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Qgil/Ohloh

-- Quim

Federico Leva (Nemo)

24 Oct 24 Oct

4:53 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

Thanks for working on this. I would have thought it obvious that ohloh should point to gerrit by default rather than GitHub which is (or when it is) "only" a mirror, why are you even considering the contrary? 333 extensions are still on SVN, those need to be added to a project as well.[1] https://www.ohloh.net/p/mediawiki-extensions-wmf and https://www.ohloh.net/p/mediawiki-extensions-wmf-unofficial look good (although -unofficial is a bit misleading); further splits are not needed IMHO, it would quickly become a maintenance nightmare. There are currently only 124 extensions in the former and 296 in the latter, so I think about 20 extensions are missing in total and 3 in the WMF-supported.[2] Or maybe they are in those separate single-extension projects under the org, which should be deleted alias moved and marked as duplicates. Speaking of which, I see lots of MediaWiki-related repositories or contributors duplicated and scattered in many places, does this org feature also give you power to approve the "commit name claim" requests and the requests to remove duplicates of your org's projects? Finally, I don't understand where the other MediaWiki-related repositories will go, for instance Wikia's. It would not be very proper to just add them to another project under the same org, but then we have no way to see all MediaWiki development stats combined. Nemo [1] <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Git/Conversion/Extensions_still_in_svn> [2] <https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/gitweb?p=mediawiki/tools/release.git;a=blob;f=make-wmf-branch/default.conf>

Quim Gil

5:53 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

Hi, On 10/24/2012 09:53 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

...

I would have thought it obvious that ohloh should point to gerrit by default rather than GitHub which is (or when it is) "only" a mirror, why are you even considering the contrary?

The aim is to point to the canonical repository for each case. In most cases they are in gerrit, but in some cases it is actually GitHub. If you find a specific mistake please point to the URLs and I'll fix (or you can fix it yourself, as far as I'm aware all those projects are editable).

...

333 extensions are still on SVN, those need to be added to a project as well.[1]

Mmm are they planning to be moved to gerrit? Adding (hundreds of) repos is just as tedious as updating them again whenever they move.

...

https://www.ohloh.net/p/mediawiki-extensions-wmf and https://www.ohloh.net/p/mediawiki-extensions-wmf-unofficial look good (although -unofficial is a bit misleading);

I know but is the best I could think of given the string chars limit. Again, everything is editable - the URLs as well.

...

further splits are not needed IMHO, it would quickly become a maintenance nightmare. There are currently only 124 extensions in the former and 296 in the latter, so I think about 20 extensions are missing in total and 3 in the WMF-supported.[2]

Ok, I'll check today.

...

Or maybe they are in those separate single-extension projects under the org, which should be deleted alias moved and marked as duplicates.

Yes, we need to sort out those little projects. However, any extension maintainers are free to create an own Ohloh entry for their project. It will provide stats and promotion specific to their project. If they care enough, why not. The repo stats themselves are not duplicated.

...

Speaking of which, I see lots of MediaWiki-related repositories or contributors duplicated and scattered in many places, does this org feature also give you power to approve the "commit name claim" requests and the requests to remove duplicates of your org's projects?

I'll go through all those entries under the Wikimedia org and remove those tiny unmaintained projects that can fit under some umbrella, yes (probably after checking with the maintainers). We can decide which projects appear under the Wikimedia umbrella but as far as I can see we have no permissions to delete projects as duplicate.

...

Finally, I don't understand where the other MediaWiki-related repositories will go, for instance Wikia's. It would not be very proper to just add them to another project under the same org, but then we have no way to see all MediaWiki development stats combined.

Well, this is a philosophical point that I was considering with half brain while the other half was copypasting repos: is this "Wikimedia" umbrella referring to the Wikimedia Foundation activities or to the Wikimedia community at large? My *personal* take at this point is that we want to reflect the Wikimedia community activities, and therefore any MediaWiki related projects are welcome. We can always organize them under their own umbrellas in order to keep thinks together but still identifiable. Ultimately I'm motivated by bringing technical contributors to Wikimedia projects, and this is a bit like gravity: the bigger your mass the bigger your chances of attracting stars, satellites and commets. ;) -- Quim

Federico Leva (Nemo)

8:40 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

Thanks for your reply.

...

Mmm are they planning to be moved to gerrit? Adding (hundreds of) repos is just as tedious as updating them again whenever they move.

They're still being sorted out, but most of them are quite dead and won't be moved I guess. A better thread to ask might be http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-October/064024.html

...

Again, everything is editable - the URLs as well.

How about just mediawiki-extensions-wmf-hosted , using the same term as in the description? And if it seems too broad the other one could be renamed to -used.

...

The repo stats themselves are not duplicated.

Can you elaborate? If there is another project for an extension already in the umbrella project, maybe using another repository (SVN or GitHub or whatever), or with differences in commit names, how are stats deduplicated?

...

we have no permissions to delete projects as duplicate

This is a pity for what above, MediaWiki (and related) committers have their stats very scattered among many unclaimed IDs, as you can verify with more or less any name. Maybe some projects could be claimed by Wikimedia org to start with? (Then the org becomes a sort of maintainer and can delete too?) A query like <https://www.ohloh.net/people?q=Raimond%20Spekking&sort=users> seems to find several that are not under Wikimedia. Nemo

Quim Gil

9:47 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

I'll wait with the extensions in the SVN repo. If someone wants jump in, be my guest. :) On 10/24/2012 01:40 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

...

Again, everything is editable - the URLs as well.

How about just mediawiki-extensions-wmf-hosted , using the same term as in the description? And if it seems too broad the other one could be renamed to -used.

https://www.ohloh.net/p/mediawiki-extensions-wmf-hosted

...

The repo stats themselves are not duplicated.

If the same repo is listed several times in different projects under the Wikimedia org, the stats of the repo are only counted once. If we are listing a repo twice via mirrors or pointless forks across Gerrit / GitHub then I'm not sure how smart Ohloh will be (since a git commit has unique identifier anyway) but in any case for us is a bug. Please point to URLs if you find a case like this. I have tried to avoid them, looking only for the repos currently in use.

...

> we have no permissions to delete projects as duplicate

Or maybe we have? Jeroen just deleted https://www.ohloh.net/p/mediawiki-core, which ended up being a perfect dupe of https://www.ohloh.net/p/mediawiki after I moved away all the extensions listed in the latter. If you find a duplicated project you want to delete, ask here and perhaps we can remove it without waiting for Ohloh admins.

...

All these projects have been already claimed by Wikimedia org: https://www.ohloh.net/orgs/wikimedia/projects If you find new projects that should be claimed just share the URL. If a project listed there should be removed as in "unclaimed" or plain deleted just let us know.

...

(Then the org becomes a sort of maintainer and can delete too?) A query like <https://www.ohloh.net/people?q=Raimond%20Spekking&sort=users> seems to find several that are not under Wikimedia.

Well, Wikimedia people can contribute to non-Wikimedia projects as well... ... which makes me remember that I didn't include the webplatfom/* repos. Should we? webplatform.org/mediawiki/Comments MediaWiki extension Comments for webplatform.org webplatform.org/mediawiki/WebPlatformAuth MediaWiki extension WebPlatformAuth for webplatform.org webplatform.org/mediawiki/WebPlatformSearchAutocomplete MediaWiki extension WebPlatformSearchAutocomplete for webplatform.org webplatform.org/mediawiki/WebPlatformTranslation MediaWiki extension WebPlatformTranslation for webplatform.org -- Quim

Quim Gil

10:10 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

On 10/24/2012 01:40 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

...

A query like <https://www.ohloh.net/people?q=Raimond%20Spekking&sort=users> seems to find several that are not under Wikimedia.

I actually went through and found indeed two lost souls, now under the Wikimedia umbrella: https://www.ohloh.net/p/VisualEditor https://www.ohloh.net/p/Parsoid Thank you! -- Quim

Federico Leva (Nemo)

10:52 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

Thank you, looks like I've just been unlucky and "several" was a severe overestimation. :) I'll report other duplicates on your community metrics wiki subpage as soon as I can, but I still don't know what to do with duplicate/unclaimed commit IDs. Can you also create the -extensions-svn project so that I or someone else can add them to the list? Thanks, Nemo

Ryan Lane

11:09 p.m.

New subject: Fwd: Seeking feedback on new "Organizations" feature on Ohloh

...

No. I didn't contribute any of these, and I didn't contribute as an WMF employee to this project. This is a separate organization that happens to be using our Gerrit server since it's beneficial to us all. - Ryan

Quim Gil

25 Oct 25 Oct

6:18 p.m.

New subject: Wikimedia in Ohloh (was Re: Seeking feedback on...)

Let's decide on a couple of important points ref https://www.ohloh.net/orgs/wikimedia 1. SCOPE Is the scope based on WMF driven projects? Plus MediaWiki extensions? Anything Wikimedia at *.mediawiki.org + Gitub exceptions? Should we also add selected friends out there? Or just anything adding to Wikimedia & MediaWiki? Default proposal: any commit and any OSS repository related to MediaWiki and the Wikimedia projects help the overall WM/MW community, and therefore I would include everything. We have ways to organize repos within projects to identify what comes from where. 2. PROJECTS vs UMBRELLAS What to do when one repository is listed in different Ohloh projects? For instance, Wiktionary Mobile has its own project and appears also under the Wikimedia Mobile umbrella. Some extensions have projects on their own, and they also appear under their related MediaWiki Extensions project umbrella. Default proposal: this type of duplication is ok. If someone wants to create an own Ohloh poject for a specific repo this already shows a certain interest to watch and show statistics specific to that project. The project umbrellas are also useful on their own, so there is no point in removing those repos from there. On 10/24/2012 03:52 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:

...

I still don't know what to do with duplicate/unclaimed commit IDs.

Why is this relevant?

...

Can you also create the -extensions-svn project so that I or someone else can add them to the list?

https://www.ohloh.net/p/mediawiki-extensions-wmf-legacy A good incentive for people volunteering adding SVN repos there: you might help us reaching 4M LOC! :) (currently we are at 3,988,444) -- Quim

Quim Gil

1 Nov 1 Nov

3:54 p.m.

New subject: Wikimedia in Ohloh (was Re: Seeking feedback on...)

Federico added manually no less than 326 svn repositories from legacy MediaWiki extensions: https://www.ohloh.net/p/mediawiki-extensions-wmf-hosted-svn Thanks a bunch! Once the new data is added to the rest of Ohloh stats we will have more then 5 millions LOC under the Wikimedia umbrella! I didn't get any feedback about the two questions below. I'll wait a few hours more and I will proceed accordingly unless someone has good reasons to obect. On 10/25/2012 11:18 AM, Quim Gil wrote:

...

-- Quim

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participants (5)

Federico Leva (Nemo)
Platonides
Quim Gil
Ryan Lane
Tomasz Finc