Hey,
In recent months I've come across a few mails on this list that only contained accusations of trolling. Those are very much not constructive and only serve to antagonize. I know some forums that have an explicit rule against this, which results in a ban on second violation. If there is a definition of the etiquette for this list somewhere, I suggest having a similar rule be added there. Thoughts?
(I'm now half expecting someone to claim this mail is a troll. Perhaps we ought to make a contest out of making the accusation first, at least then it will have general amusement value :D)
Cheers
-- Jeroen De Dauw http://www.bn2vs.com Don't panic. Don't be evil. ~=[,,_,,]:3 --
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Jeroen De Dauw jeroendedauw@gmail.comwrote:
In recent months I've come across a few mails on this list that only contained accusations of trolling. Those are very much not constructive and only serve to antagonize. I know some forums that have an explicit rule against this, which results in a ban on second violation. If there is a definition of the etiquette for this list somewhere, I suggest having a similar rule be added there. Thoughts?
To be fair, you were proposing that we use a proprietary third party web site for editing wikimedia wiki pages, which would violate out privacy policy and break our principles of openness. How was I not to think you were trolling? My only alternative was to think you've simply lost your mind.
- Ryan
On 11/12/13 22:21, Ryan Lane wrote:
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Jeroen De Dauw jeroendedauw@gmail.comwrote:
In recent months I've come across a few mails on this list that only contained accusations of trolling. Those are very much not constructive and only serve to antagonize. I know some forums that have an explicit rule against this, which results in a ban on second violation. If there is a definition of the etiquette for this list somewhere, I suggest having a similar rule be added there. Thoughts?
To be fair, you were proposing that we use a proprietary third party web site for editing wikimedia wiki pages, which would violate out privacy policy and break our principles of openness. How was I not to think you were trolling? My only alternative was to think you've simply lost your mind.
- Ryan
From a common (wiki) user standpoint, however, gerrit for instance might as well be a proprietary third party website as well - it's not easily accessible or directly connected to the wiki (different accounts, different interface, etc), so many of the same principles apply there too.
This does support Matt's point, though - we all come into discussions with different perspectives, so if someone looks at it like a content editor and another looks at it like a platform developer, of course they might think the other is trolling because these perspectives can be so very different. We're not necessarily seeing or discussing the same things, and that's actually a good thing because it means we can cover the different sides of the problems better, but we do need to keep that in mind for it to work.
-I
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:21 PM, Ryan Lane rlane32@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Jeroen De Dauw <jeroendedauw@gmail.com
wrote: In recent months I've come across a few mails on this list that only contained accusations of trolling. Those are very much not constructive
and
only serve to antagonize. I know some forums that have an explicit rule against this, which results in a ban on second violation. If there is a definition of the etiquette for this list somewhere, I suggest having a similar rule be added there. Thoughts?
To be fair, you were proposing that we use a proprietary third party web site for editing wikimedia wiki pages, which would violate out privacy policy and break our principles of openness. How was I not to think you were trolling? My only alternative was to think you've simply lost your mind.
Or perhaps he merely suggested something that you disagreed with (or didn't understand), without "losing [his] mind" or being a "troll"?
I'm a little skeptical about Jeroen's GitHub suggestion, but it seems like something reasonable people can disagree about. Could we not accuse Jeroen or anyone else of being a troll or losing his/her mind for floating an honest proposal?
Thanks Rob
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Rob Lanphier robla@wikimedia.org wrote:
Or perhaps he merely suggested something that you disagreed with (or didn't understand), without "losing [his] mind" or being a "troll"?
I'm a little skeptical about Jeroen's GitHub suggestion, but it seems like something reasonable people can disagree about. Could we not accuse Jeroen or anyone else of being a troll or losing his/her mind for floating an honest proposal?
From my experience on the Internet, I suspect that most of the times when
people are accused of trolling, they are actually serious; and most of the times when people are trolling, they're taken seriously and no one expresses any suspicion that they were trolling.
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:50 AM, Nathan Larson nathanlarson3141@gmail.com wrote:
From my experience on the Internet, I suspect that most of the times when people are accused of trolling, they are actually serious; and most of the times when people are trolling, they're taken seriously and no one expresses any suspicion that they were trolling.
Poe's law?[1]
I think I've seen a couple of the times this has happened. It appears to me that it might be in reaction to a perceived misunderstanding of the topic on either party. If we assume good faith on both sides; then I think it's reasonable for the perceived 'trolling' party to gently restate their position.
Ordinarily I would hold that we should simply be silent when we think we're being trolled -- but over a mailing list that can be perceived as if we're ignoring things. As we sometimes do in fact do this on purpose; I appreciate the feedback loop when a party perceives it so that we can correct and move on so that no one gets ignored unless we really do mean to ignore them.
~Matt Walker Wikimedia Foundation Fundraising Technology Team
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Jeroen De Dauw jeroendedauw@gmail.comwrote:
Hey,
In recent months I've come across a few mails on this list that only contained accusations of trolling. Those are very much not constructive and only serve to antagonize. I know some forums that have an explicit rule against this, which results in a ban on second violation. If there is a definition of the etiquette for this list somewhere, I suggest having a similar rule be added there. Thoughts?
(I'm now half expecting someone to claim this mail is a troll. Perhaps we ought to make a contest out of making the accusation first, at least then it will have general amusement value :D)
Cheers
-- Jeroen De Dauw http://www.bn2vs.com Don't panic. Don't be evil. ~=[,,_,,]:3 -- _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Is this thread some trolling on its own? :P
I think we need to use less rules and more common sense.
All these etiquettes are just damaging your natural intelligence...
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 11:11 PM, Jeroen De Dauw jeroendedauw@gmail.com wrote:
Hey,
In recent months I've come across a few mails on this list that only contained accusations of trolling. Those are very much not constructive and only serve to antagonize. I know some forums that have an explicit rule against this, which results in a ban on second violation. If there is a definition of the etiquette for this list somewhere, I suggest having a similar rule be added there. Thoughts?
(I'm now half expecting someone to claim this mail is a troll. Perhaps we ought to make a contest out of making the accusation first, at least then it will have general amusement value :D)
Cheers
-- Jeroen De Dauw http://www.bn2vs.com Don't panic. Don't be evil. ~=[,,_,,]:3 -- _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On 11/12/13 23:28, Petr Bena wrote:
I think we need to use less rules and more common sense.
This.
When you get right down to it, what even is trolling? And should it necessarily matter? Even if someone is trolling, that doesn't mean they may not have a real point to it, though perhaps they could be more polite. Thing is, the most effective trolling is generally effective precisely /because/ they have a point - a point which may be somehow uncomfortable, something neglected or ignored or that the target doesn't want to admit for whatever reason, but if the point is relevant it often should be brought up.
Unfortunately with such points bringing them in any way, no matter how politely, can potentially be called trolling.
-L
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Isarra Yos zhorishna@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/12/13 23:28, Petr Bena wrote:
I think we need to use less rules and more common sense.
This.
Rules are silly. Common sense for all :)
-Chad
Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Isarra Yos zhorishna@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/12/13 23:28, Petr Bena wrote:
I think we need to use less rules and more common sense.
This.
Rules are silly. Common sense for all :)
Yeah, and at this very moment we are getting a "Bugzilla etiquette[1]" instead of improving a plain text explanation to bug submitters how our process works.
//Saper
[1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bug_management/Bugzilla_etiquette
On Sun, 2013-12-22 at 20:18 +0000, Marcin Cieslak wrote:
Chad innocentkiller@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Isarra Yos zhorishna@gmail.com wrote:
On 11/12/13 23:28, Petr Bena wrote:
I think we need to use less rules and more common sense.
This.
Rules are silly. Common sense for all :)
Yeah, and at this very moment we are getting a "Bugzilla etiquette[1]" instead of improving a plain text explanation to bug submitters how our process works.
The "instead of" in that sentence confuses me - you can work on both.
Where is the current plain text explanation that we should improve? Do you refer to https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_report_a_bug ? Which areas for improvement do you see?
andre
On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Jeroen De Dauw jeroendedauw@gmail.comwrote:
(I'm now half expecting someone to claim this mail is a troll. Perhaps we ought to make a contest out of making the accusation first, at least then it will have general amusement value :D)
This contest idea sounds exciting. ;)
*-- * *Tyler Romeo* Stevens Institute of Technology, Class of 2016 Major in Computer Science
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