Hi All,
I occasionally get enquiries from small-business people who want an extension or some custom functionality developed for their company's MediaWiki wiki. Somehow these people end up finding me (god knows how) and ask me for help, or I see people enquiring about this on IRC or very occasionally on this mailing list ... and it seems to me (as a good capitalist) that there is a bit of a missed market-opportunity here.
So the current situation we have is: * You are a dev, and want something built ----> You go build it yourself, and scratch the itch. * You are a for-profit company who use wikis a bit, and want something built as a one-off ----> Currently, you're kinda screwed; good luck finding suitable people. * You are an established company or non-profit whose core functionality involves wikis, and need things built/maintained on an ongoing basis ----> You employ full-time devs in the US / Poland / wherever.
It's that middle tier that I'm focusing on here. I'm wondering about establishing a simple directory web site, that has a grid of developers who are interested in working on one-off or short-term MediaWiki development work (i.e. where you don't give up your day-job or studies, it's just a chance to earn a little bit of extra cash). Some fields to include in the grid might be: * Your name * Whether you have SVN commit access (since often extensions either need a few new hooks, or might uncover latent bugs in the core code that need to checked back in, plus it's good all-round if new useful extensions end up in SVN) * Whether you're interested in per-hour-work (and potentially your rate, if people want to include that - could even have different rates - e.g. us$x for GPL work that can checked into SVN, us$2x for non-GPL work that stays private). * Whether you're interested in fixed-price work (personally, I wouldn't recommend this, but hey, you're independent people fully capable of making your own decisions) * Whether you're interested in working for equity-only or mix of equity + cash. * How to contact you (e.g. an email address, or web page, or phone number, or whatever) * Possible payment methods (e.g. PayPal, bank transfer, etc) * Country + timezone (people like to know where people they are dealing with are) * Languages spoken * Optionally, any areas you're particular interested in or skilled in, if people want to include this (e.g. if you're a CSS god, or good with database optimization, etc). * _Maybe_ employers get to rate devs they have used, and this is shown, like eBay feedback?? (not sure about this one though)
Then employers could contact devs directly, and pay devs directly (i.e. to be clear, what you earn is what you earn - it's between you, the employer, and your local tax office, to send invoices / pay tax / etc). If we ran google ads, I might ask people who got work to contribute towards the cost of those (i.e. as long as the site costs are either neutral or negligible then I'm happy - I have no interest in making money off of anyone else's labor, or getting involved in any of the legal or financial issues involved with employment).
Generally, I think this would be a positive thing for MediaWiki - it'd probably get some bug fixes and new extensions into SVN, and it might mildly increase or ease MediaWiki adoption in small companies, by knowing that development help is available. And obviously it could help devs pay their bills and put food on the table by working with MediaWiki, which has got to be a good thing.
There are some negatives though - in particular, being paid introduces some perverse psychological effects, where people's strong inherent motivation to do a good job can be overridden by the weak external motivation to only work in exchange for payment (i.e. you could potentially end up with less development of the non-income-generating core stuff that benefits everybody, and more development of the income-generating custom functionality that only benefits a few people).
Overall though, I think the potential negatives are outweighed by the positives.
Anyway, enough background info. The question I have at this point is: Are any other devs interested in trying this?
Understand it's an experiment though. It might work, it might not. But even if it flops, the cost of failure is essentially zero. And if it works, then great.
If you're interested in giving it a shot, mail me off-list - I'm looking for >= 3 or 4 devs expressing an interest to determine if it's worth proceeding with creating this.
Also, if you think it's a crappy idea, you are free to say so on-list (seriously - if enough people say it won't work, then it saves me the effort of putting it up, so I'm happy). Or if you think it could work, you're welcome to say so too. All comments and feedback are welcome.
-- All the best, Nick.
On 10/4/07, Nick Jenkins nickpj@gmail.com wrote:
Hi All,
I occasionally get enquiries from small-business people who want an extension or some custom functionality developed for their company's MediaWiki wiki. Somehow these people end up finding me (god knows how) and ask me for help, or I see people enquiring about this on IRC or very occasionally on this mailing list ... and it seems to me (as a good capitalist) that there is a bit of a missed market-opportunity here.
How about [[Category:Wikimedia developers for hire]]? A single page to send people to. You could make a subpage of your user page to show your expertise, add it to the category, and remove it once you're flooded with work.
Magnus
"Magnus Manske" magnusmanske@googlemail.com wrote in message news:fab0ecb70710040141k73021480pae3b1a064ac2df30@mail.gmail.com...
On 10/4/07, Nick Jenkins nickpj@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi All,
I occasionally get enquiries from small-business people who want an extension or some custom functionality developed for their company's MediaWiki wiki. Somehow these people end up finding me (god knows how) and ask me for help, or I see people enquiring about this on IRC or very occasionally on this mailing list ... and it seems to me (as a good capitalist) that there is a bit of a missed market-opportunity here.
How about [[Category:Wikimedia developers for hire]]? A single page to send people to. You could make a subpage of your user page to show your expertise, add it to the category, and remove it once you're flooded with work.
Magnus
See http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Jobs for a page like this that someone started on MediaWiki.org, and http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Jobs for the reaction it got.
There was a vague feeling that we shouldn't host such a page at the official site, as it might imply some kind of endorsement or recommendation, but a brief list with links to off-site details and a big and obvious disclaimer was considered acceptable.
Mind you, there weren't many people participating in the discussion, so more input would definitely be useful. Personally I would prefer that the whole thing was kept off-site, and your proposal sounds like a good way of doing that.
- Mark Clements (HappyDog)
On 10/4/07, Nick Jenkins nickpj@gmail.com wrote:
... I'm wondering about establishing a simple directory web site, that has a grid of developers who are interested in working on one-off or short-term MediaWiki development work ...
I think it's a great idea. Even for companies who happen to have a team of MediaWiki developers on board, there are still times you quickly need some extra work done by someone with MediaWiki experience.
Angela
Great idea!
But I am not sure it works as a wiki.
Paul Y
On 10/4/07, Angela beesley@gmail.com wrote:
On 10/4/07, Nick Jenkins nickpj@gmail.com wrote:
... I'm wondering about establishing a simple directory web site, that has a grid of developers who are
interested in working
on one-off or short-term MediaWiki development work ...
I think it's a great idea. Even for companies who happen to have a team of MediaWiki developers on board, there are still times you quickly need some extra work done by someone with MediaWiki experience.
Angela
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
I occasionally get enquiries from small-business people who want an extension or some custom functionality developed for their company's MediaWiki wiki. Somehow these people end up finding me (god knows how) and ask me for help, or I see people enquiring about this on IRC or very occasionally on this mailing list ... and it seems to me (as a good capitalist) that there is a bit of a missed market-opportunity here.
I think there is a very good opportunity for this, and also for paid support. Lack of support is a show stopper in some organizations (as dumb as that is...). Is there a way this could be worked into the site as well?
V/r,
Ryan Lane
Thank you all for the great comments & feedback! Grouping all the replies into one message:
If you're interested in giving it a shot, mail me off-list - I'm looking for >= 3 or 4 devs expressing an interest to determine if it's worth proceeding with creating this.
Off-list interest from 3 devs plus myself, so let's give it a shot.
Any interest in participating in a MediaWikiDevsForHire.com ?
There were on-list and off-lists requests that the site be more general in 2 regards: a) include pages for more roles than developers - including wiki consultants, and commercial support, as well possibly wiki gardeners, editors and designers. b) include different wikis (Twiki, OddMuse, Confluence, MindShare, Socialtext, Jive, WetPaint, pbWiki, etc) as well as MediaWiki.
Given all that leaves is wikis + some form of work in exchange for payment, decided to go with http://WikiHR.net/ as the domain name.
The site is very simple - you choose the type of wiki system first, and then the type of thing you are looking for, and then you get a list of suitable matches. It's very sparse currently, but hopefully, being a wiki, people will help to fill in the blanks - and of course anyone is welcome to add themselves into the appropriate page, or update or add anything that they think is an improvement.
But I am not sure it works as a wiki.
Let's try it as a wiki initially, and if it doesn't work, it always can change to a different format. It seems to work okay for the twiki folks, but the only sure way to tell is to try it.
I will however set it up so that anonymous editing is not allowed, and so that a validated email address is required to edit. Normally I strongly favour allowing anonymity, but you probably don't want people to be able to anonymously edit the list of people available for work or the positions on offer, and if you post an ad or indicate you're available for work then you really should be contactable ... so hopefully these will be seen as reasonable requirements.
How about [[Category:Wikimedia developers for hire]]? A single page to send people to. You could make a subpage of your user page to show your expertise, add it to the category, and remove it once you're flooded with work.
I don't know about the "Wikimedia" in the category name, since it could be misinterpreted as some sort of endorsement by the WMF.
See http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Jobs for a page like this that someone started on MediaWiki.org, and http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Jobs for the reaction it got.
Here's how the Twiki folks handle this area: http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ConsultantsForHire http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/CodersForHire ... however, Twiki.org is (I think) not hosted by a non-profit organisation, so their situation is simpler. Hosting it off-site is easy enough though, and avoids all these concerns.
There was a vague feeling that we shouldn't host such a page at the official site, as it might imply some kind of endorsement or recommendation, but a brief list with links to off-site details and a big and obvious disclaimer was considered acceptable.
I have made http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Jobs include such a disclaimer, have got rid of most of the content (it was pretty content-free anyway) and have added a link to http://wikihr.net/ .
If we ran google ads, I might ask people who got work to contribute towards the cost of those (i.e. as long as the site costs are either neutral or negligible then I'm happy -
I have seeded it with $50 for google ads on "mediawiki developers", and will try that as an experiment. If people find employees or medium or long-term work through the site, and think running google ads is useful, they're welcome to send me a few bucks towards this, or not, entirely at their discretion. If the kitty runs out, then that's fine and just means the google ads will stop (but the site will of course stay up), so one way or another it should find equilibrium.
I think there is a very good opportunity for this, and also for paid support. Lack of support is a show stopper in some organizations (as dumb as that is...). Is there a way this could be worked into the site as well?
For sure - page added at http://wikihr.net/MediaWiki_Commercial_Support , and someone added their company to this page yesterday.
-- All the best, Nick.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Nick Jenkins wrote:
How about [[Category:Wikimedia developers for hire]]? A single page to send people to. You could make a subpage of your user page to show your expertise, add it to the category, and remove it once you're flooded with work.
I don't know about the "Wikimedia" in the category name, since it could be misinterpreted as some sort of endorsement by the WMF.
Indeed, please avoid that. :)
There was a vague feeling that we shouldn't host such a page at the official site, as it might imply some kind of endorsement or recommendation, but a brief list with links to off-site details and a big and obvious disclaimer was considered acceptable.
I have made http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Jobs include such a disclaimer, have got rid of most of the content (it was pretty content-free anyway) and have added a link to http://wikihr.net/ .
I would also recommend taking it off-site, as that would avoid any confusion with potential initiatives run by Wikimedia itself.
For sure - page added at http://wikihr.net/MediaWiki_Commercial_Support , and someone added their company to this page yesterday.
Cool! :)
- -- brion
On 04/10/2007, Nick Jenkins nickpj@gmail.com wrote:
If you're interested in giving it a shot, mail me off-list - I'm looking for >= 3 or 4 devs expressing an interest to determine if it's worth proceeding with creating this.
Also, if you think it's a crappy idea, you are free to say so on-list (seriously - if enough people say it won't work, then it saves me the effort of putting it up, so I'm happy). Or if you think it could work, you're welcome to say so too. All comments and feedback are welcome.
Sounds like a worthwhile effort, to me - I shouldn't think there'd be a reason it wouldn't kick off.
Rob Church
Good idea!
On 10/4/07, Rob Church robchur@gmail.com wrote:
On 04/10/2007, Nick Jenkins nickpj@gmail.com wrote:
If you're interested in giving it a shot, mail me off-list - I'm looking for >= 3 or 4 devs expressing an interest to determine if it's worth proceeding with creating this.
Also, if you think it's a crappy idea, you are free to say so on-list (seriously - if enough people say it won't work, then it saves me the effort of putting it up, so I'm happy). Or if you think it could work, you're welcome to say so too. All comments and feedback are welcome.
Sounds like a worthwhile effort, to me - I shouldn't think there'd be a reason it wouldn't kick off.
Rob Church
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Keep it off-site with possibly a single link with all the necessary disclaimers etc.
Sounds like a really good idea
DSig David Tod Sigafoos | SANMAR Corporation
-----Original Message----- From: wikitech-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikitech-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Nick Jenkins Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 20:49 To: Wikimedia developers Subject: [Wikitech-l] Any interest in participating in aMediaWikiDevsForHire.com ?
Hi All,
I occasionally get enquiries from small-business people who want an extension or some custom functionality developed for their company's MediaWiki wiki. Somehow these people end up finding me (god knows how) and ask me for help, or I see people enquiring about this on IRC or very occasionally on this mailing list ... and it seems to me (as a good capitalist) that there is a bit of a missed market-opportunity here.
So the current situation we have is: * You are a dev, and want something built ----> You go build it yourself, and scratch the itch. * You are a for-profit company who use wikis a bit, and want something built as a one-off ----> Currently, you're kinda screwed; good luck finding suitable people. * You are an established company or non-profit whose core functionality involves wikis, and need things built/maintained on an ongoing basis ----> You employ full-time devs in the US / Poland / wherever.
It's that middle tier that I'm focusing on here. I'm wondering about establishing a simple directory web site, that has a grid of developers who are interested in working on one-off or short-term MediaWiki development work (i.e. where you don't give up your day-job or studies, it's just a chance to earn a little bit of extra cash). Some fields to include in the grid might be: * Your name * Whether you have SVN commit access (since often extensions either need a few new hooks, or might uncover latent bugs in the core code that need to checked back in, plus it's good all-round if new useful extensions end up in SVN) * Whether you're interested in per-hour-work (and potentially your rate, if people want to include that - could even have different rates - e.g. us$x for GPL work that can checked into SVN, us$2x for non-GPL work that stays private). * Whether you're interested in fixed-price work (personally, I wouldn't recommend this, but hey, you're independent people fully capable of making your own decisions) * Whether you're interested in working for equity-only or mix of equity + cash. * How to contact you (e.g. an email address, or web page, or phone number, or whatever) * Possible payment methods (e.g. PayPal, bank transfer, etc) * Country + timezone (people like to know where people they are dealing with are) * Languages spoken * Optionally, any areas you're particular interested in or skilled in, if people want to include this (e.g. if you're a CSS god, or good with database optimization, etc). * _Maybe_ employers get to rate devs they have used, and this is shown, like eBay feedback?? (not sure about this one though)
Then employers could contact devs directly, and pay devs directly (i.e. to be clear, what you earn is what you earn - it's between you, the employer, and your local tax office, to send invoices / pay tax / etc). If we ran google ads, I might ask people who got work to contribute towards the cost of those (i.e. as long as the site costs are either neutral or negligible then I'm happy - I have no interest in making money off of anyone else's labor, or getting involved in any of the legal or financial issues involved with employment).
Generally, I think this would be a positive thing for MediaWiki - it'd probably get some bug fixes and new extensions into SVN, and it might mildly increase or ease MediaWiki adoption in small companies, by knowing that development help is available. And obviously it could help devs pay their bills and put food on the table by working with MediaWiki, which has got to be a good thing.
There are some negatives though - in particular, being paid introduces some perverse psychological effects, where people's strong inherent motivation to do a good job can be overridden by the weak external motivation to only work in exchange for payment (i.e. you could potentially end up with less development of the non-income-generating core stuff that benefits everybody, and more development of the income-generating custom functionality that only benefits a few people).
Overall though, I think the potential negatives are outweighed by the positives.
Anyway, enough background info. The question I have at this point is: Are any other devs interested in trying this?
Understand it's an experiment though. It might work, it might not. But even if it flops, the cost of failure is essentially zero. And if it works, then great.
If you're interested in giving it a shot, mail me off-list - I'm looking for >= 3 or 4 devs expressing an interest to determine if it's worth proceeding with creating this.
Also, if you think it's a crappy idea, you are free to say so on-list (seriously - if enough people say it won't work, then it saves me the effort of putting it up, so I'm happy). Or if you think it could work, you're welcome to say so too. All comments and feedback are welcome.
-- All the best, Nick.
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