Arbeo left out the part where there was lots of fighting over the request.

There are alternative proposals for Veluws, Gronings, and Stellingwarfs.

The proposal for Veluws got 7 support votes and 2 oppose, one of who is Arbeo himself and the other which is conditional and may convince to change.

The Veluws proposal has been around for about 1 month now, and in this time it has quickly gained large margin of support.

The "Nedersaksisch" proposal, on the other hand, has 17 support votes after a period of over 5 months, and there is still significant opposition.

It seems that, in the long term, it will be better to allow the mutually unintelligible Low Saxon languages in the Netherlands have their own Wikipedias. Arbeo doesn't consider this and instead says he opposes them because they are dialects, without considering practically that they are difficult for mutual intelligibility, especially with marginal varieties such as Veluws and Gronings.

Mark

On 07/11/05, Arbeo M arbeo_m@yahoo.de wrote:

Hi Tels!

Thanks for your inquiry. This can be a bit confusing indeed. That's part of the reason why discussion took so long here.

...

I am also confused. Does this mean we will have wikipedias for every German dialect (saxionian, bavarian etc), too? *confused*

...

How does "nedersaksisch" relate to

"niedersächsisch"?

1. I believe and hope there will be no Wikipedias for

German or any other dialects. I am quite strictly against creating Wikipedias for individual dialects. That's why I voted against WPs for Bavarian and Ripuarian (please cf. 'Requests for new Languages' page on Meta).

2. However, Low Saxon (=Nedersaksisch, Niedersächsisch

or Plattdüütsch) is almost unanimously considered a separate language and not regarded as is belonging to the German language. As a German, I can confirm and assure that the two languages are not mutually intelligible.

3. Low Saxon consists, like most languages, of various

dialects. They are sometimes even considered separate languages (but for the most part mutually intelligible).

4. Low Saxon is spoken in Germany as well in the

Netherlands.

5. Due to historical reasons, the dialects of Low

Saxon used in Germany are highly influenced (loan words, technical expressions, fixed expressions and especially spelling) by the German language while those spoken in the Netherlands show many Dutch characteristics because of a century-long influx coming from the national, official language.

6. There is a Low Saxon Wikipedia already (nds).

However, this Wikipedia solely comprises content written in Low Saxon from Germany (where the clear majority of Low Saxon speakers lives). The possibility of including content written in "Dutch" Low Saxon was discussed widely earlier this year at Wikipedia-l (see archives) but considered not possible by the vast majority of participants, especially by all participants coming from Germany and from the Netherlands. This was not due to any nationalistic reasons or the like but solely due to practical reasons (intelligibility).

7. Thus, the varieties of Low Saxon used in the

Netherlands are currently de facto excluded from Wikipedia. That is why numerous Dutch "Low Saxons" have requested a new Wikipedia.

8. "Nedersaksisch" (=Low Saxon) is the most common way

of referring to the language as a whole in the Netherlands. That is why is has been agreed upon as a designation for the new Wikipedia. Btw: it has been suggested that it can be referred to as "Low Saxon (NL)" or the like in other languages where a translation is needed.

9. "Plattdüütsch" (=Low [or, literally 'flat'] German)

is the most common way speakers refer to this language in Germany. It is also the self-designation of the existing "nds"-Wikipedia. This designation reflects the fact that its speakers have been part of the German nation for many centuries. It rather alludes to geographical (it is spoken in the low-laying, coastal areas of Germany) than to linguistic facts. Including the component "German", this name is not used in the Netherlands, of course.

10. "Niedersächsisch" is simply the German

(linguistic) term for the language. ("Plattdeutsch" is another, less formal name).

Hope this helps a little bit to understand the background of this request.

Thanks for your consideration!

Arbeo

---

Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - Jetzt mit 1GB Speicher kostenlos - Hier anmelden: http://mail.yahoo.de _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Helo Arbeo!

On Tuesday 08 November 2005 02:32, Arbeo M wrote:

Hi Tels!

Thanks for your inquiry. This can be a bit confusing indeed. That's part of the reason why discussion took so long here.

...

I am also confused. Does this mean we will have wikipedias for every German dialect (saxionian, bavarian etc), too? *confused*

How does "nedersaksisch" relate to

"niedersächsisch"?

[snipabit]

Thanx for the clarification. I think it would have been good to include a few links for casual readers of this mailing-list, not everyone is familiar with all the details/languages and ongoing/past discussions etc.

Regarding these two wikipedias, it seems that this is the unique situation where a dialect (the dutch one) of a language (plattdeutsch) will get it's own wikipedia.

I am not per se opposed to dialects getting their own wikipedia. It might be very interesting to see the content (even if it is just for preserving the dialect/language).

OTOH, "real" languages like "Sorbisch" (ISO code "wen") don't have thier own wikipedia yet, and these would at least have some "official" rules on how to spell things. I am no language expert, but things like saxonian could get very messy in written form. Since I know nothing about nedersaksisch, I will refrain from vote for or against it :)

2. However, Low Saxon (=Nedersaksisch, Niedersächsisch

or Plattdüütsch) is almost unanimously considered a separate language and not regarded as is belonging to the German language. As a German, I can confirm and assure that the two languages are not mutually intelligible.

Heh, you could say that between bavarian and saxonian! (I jest! :)

Here is a .sig of mine relating to that topic:

Neulich in Dresden gehört: "Gundach. Schbindadoni. Isvleisch dadidada?" -- Ex-Kahl-Libur

Best wishes,

Tels

- -- Signed on Tue Nov 8 17:44:52 2005 with key 0x93B84C15. Visit my photo gallery at http://bloodgate.com/photos/ PGP key on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or per email.

"Nuclear powered vacuum cleaners will probably be ready within 10 years." Alex Lewyt, of the Lewyt Corporation, a vacuum maker, predicted in The New York Times on June 10, 1955 -- A warning to all technophiles