Hello, after trying several other places I hope to find an open ear for this issue here. I stepped on this in the german wikipedia, but its the same in the english and probaly others:
The stylesheet for printing is called via: <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="print" href="/skins-1.5/common/commonPrint.css?41" />
Now for the mostly relevant style it contains a fixed font size: #content { .. font-size: 11pt; .. }
The effect is that a print page can not be scaled prior to printing, as for example in Firefox. Fixed font size reduces the accessability and IMHO makes sense only for printing on fixed paper forms.
The simple solution would be to replace the '11pt' with a percent or em-Value that renders similar in popular browsers, like '92%'.
There are other issues with commonPrint.css (like: why should it not be appropriate to have the Wikipedia logo on a printed Wikipedia page?), so as a second step I would propose an option in the user parameters "Turn off specialized stylesheet for printing".
But let us clarify the fixed font issue first.
Greetings // Bernd
On 1/8/07, Bernd vdB bb_tech@kanka.de wrote:
Hello, after trying several other places I hope to find an open ear for this issue here. I stepped on this in the german wikipedia, but its the same in the english and probaly others:
The stylesheet for printing is called via:
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="print" href="/skins-1.5/common/commonPrint.css?41" />
Now for the mostly relevant style it contains a fixed font size: #content { .. font-size: 11pt; .. }
The effect is that a print page can not be scaled prior to printing, as for example in Firefox. Fixed font size reduces the accessability and IMHO makes sense only for printing on fixed paper forms.
The simple solution would be to replace the '11pt' with a percent or em-Value that renders similar in popular browsers, like '92%'.
That seems reasonable. Any objections?
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Bernd vdB wrote:
Now for the mostly relevant style it contains a fixed font size: #content { .. font-size: 11pt; .. }
The effect is that a print page can not be scaled prior to printing, as for example in Firefox.
Could you please describe how one "scales prior to printing"?
- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Brion Vibber wrote:
Could you please describe how one "scales prior to printing"?
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
It took me a while to figure that one out too. I think he means users might scale the text in Firefox, then print, not realizing a print stylesheet would be in effect. Thus, their scaling would surprisingly have no effect.
Matthew Flaschen
Hello,
Matthew Flaschen wrote:
Brion Vibber wrote:
Could you please describe how one "scales prior to printing"?
..
It took me a while to figure that one out too. I think he means users might scale the text in Firefox, then print, ...
Hmm, I have here Firefox 2.0.0.1 running, I go to File-Print_Preview and on top in the middle there is a "Scale" element that can be changed from 100% to, say 70%. Try it with google, or 99% of this worlds famous websites, and - wow, it scales down. Try it with wikipedia and it doesn't.
Ok?
// Bernd
Bernd vdB wrote:
Hello,
Matthew Flaschen wrote:
Brion Vibber wrote:
Could you please describe how one "scales prior to printing"?
..
It took me a while to figure that one out too. I think he means users might scale the text in Firefox, then print, ...
Hmm, I have here Firefox 2.0.0.1 running, I go to File-Print_Preview and on top in the middle there is a "Scale" element that can be changed from 100% to, say 70%. Try it with google, or 99% of this worlds famous websites, and - wow, it scales down. Try it with wikipedia and it doesn't.
Ok?
My mistake. You might want to lose the attitude, and just be more clear. Not everyone has Firefox, and Kubuntu's Firefox 2.0.0.1 doesn't even have that feature.
Matthew Flaschen
Matthew Flaschen wrote:
Bernd vdB wrote:
Hello,
Matthew Flaschen wrote:
Brion Vibber wrote:
Could you please describe how one "scales prior to printing"?
..
It took me a while to figure that one out too. I think he means users might scale the text in Firefox, then print, ...
Hmm, I have here Firefox 2.0.0.1 running, I go to File-Print_Preview and on top in the middle there is a "Scale" element that can be changed from 100% to, say 70%. Try it with google, or 99% of this worlds famous websites, and - wow, it scales down. Try it with wikipedia and it doesn't.
Ok?
My mistake. You might want to lose the attitude, and just be more clear. Not everyone has Firefox, and Kubuntu's Firefox 2.0.0.1 doesn't even have that feature.
Matthew Flaschen
It might be under Page Setup, rather than Print Preview.
-Gurch
On 09/01/07, christoph.huesler@css.ch christoph.huesler@css.ch wrote:
Matthew Flaschen wrote:
Yes, that was it. I see the issue. It's a serious problem, because that means it scales images but not text.
Yes, but it's not a MW problem, it's a firefox bug.
I understand the Mozilla print system presently has no maintainer at all and large signs saying "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate."
- d.
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Bernd vdB wrote:
Hello,
Matthew Flaschen wrote:
Brion Vibber wrote:
Could you please describe how one "scales prior to printing"?
..
It took me a while to figure that one out too. I think he means users might scale the text in Firefox, then print, ...
Hmm, I have here Firefox 2.0.0.1 running, I go to File-Print_Preview and on top in the middle there is a "Scale" element that can be changed from 100% to, say 70%.
I can find no such option in Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Mac OS X. What operating system are you running? Remember, being specific makes it a lot easier to find out what you mean and reproduce the problem.
Try it with google, or 99% of this worlds famous websites, and - wow, it scales down. Try it with wikipedia and it doesn't.
Sounds like a bug in Firefox; a printing scaling feature ought to work regardless of which method was used to set font sizes in the page's style sheet. Have you reported it to Mozilla?
- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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Brion Vibber wrote:
Bernd vdB wrote:
Hmm, I have here Firefox 2.0.0.1 running, I go to File-Print_Preview and on top in the middle there is a "Scale" element that can be changed from 100% to, say 70%.
I can find no such option in Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Mac OS X. What operating system are you running? Remember, being specific makes it a lot easier to find out what you mean and reproduce the problem.
I did find a "scale" option in 'File'/'Page Setup', which seems to work just fine.
50% and 200% produce very small and very large text output respectively when print-previewing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Branch%2C_Pennsylvania
- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
Brion Vibber wrote:
I did find a "scale" option in 'File'/'Page Setup', which seems to work just fine.
50% and 200% produce very small and very large text output respectively when print-previewing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Branch%2C_Pennsylvania
- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
I can only confirm the bug reporter's experience (using Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Ubuntu Edgy). But it's probably a Firefox bug, since it works on Mac.
Filip
Hello Brion,
you wrote: ...
I can find no such option in Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Mac OS X. What operating system are you running?
Windows XP, sorry for being a bit autistic - I have no other OS with a gui running here and assumed Firefox would have the same features on every platform. But, am I completely wrong to assume that the majority of wikipedia users has got Windows running (which doesn't mean that there would be no good reasons to go elsewhere)?
Sounds like a bug in Firefox; a printing scaling feature ought to work regardless of which method was used to set font sizes ..
No, really, Firefix works just as designed and as specified. A fixed font size is _meant_ to render fixed, and: "Use of percentage values, or values in 'em's, leads to more robust and cascadable style sheets." ( http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/fonts.html#font-size-props )
And, have a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/monobook/main.css?41 .. and you fill not one font-size in 'pt', only percent, ems or 'small' etc.
// Bernd
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Bernd vdB wrote:
you wrote: ...
I can find no such option in Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Mac OS X. What operating system are you running?
Windows XP, sorry for being a bit autistic - I have no other OS with a gui running here and assumed Firefox would have the same features on every platform. But, am I completely wrong to assume that the majority of wikipedia users has got Windows running (which doesn't mean that there would be no good reasons to go elsewhere)?
I asked you what *you* were running so I could try to reproduce the problem *you* described.
Sounds like a bug in Firefox; a printing scaling feature ought to work regardless of which method was used to set font sizes ..
No, really, Firefix works just as designed and as specified.
Well, that would be a surprise; can you show me the design specifications for Firefox's print scaling feature? :)
In fact, a quick search through bugzilla shows that this is a known bug:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205001 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153080 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=177805
So I rather suspect that this is not "as designed and as specified" at all.
A fixed font size is _meant_ to render fixed, and: "Use of percentage values, or values in 'em's, leads to more robust and cascadable style sheets." ( http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/fonts.html#font-size-props )
This isn't a cascade issue; it's a bug in Mozilla's Gecko renderer as to how it handles print scaling. Scaling, by definition, would need to change the logical resolution of those document absolute units as well. (And in fact the behavior is correct when printing from Firefox on Mac OS X, so the bug appears limited to the printing subsystem on some other platforms.)
And, have a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/monobook/main.css?41 .. and you fill not one font-size in 'pt', only percent, ems or 'small' etc.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you're trying to convince us that the use of different units in one of our style sheets means that there is not a bug in Firefox's printing modules on some platforms, I don't think I'm convinced. ;)
That doesn't mean we can't change the print stylesheet to compensate, but please don't stray off into unrelated territory.
Just because I ask you questions about a bug I can't reproduce on my system without more information from you doesn't mean I'm out to get you.
- -- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com / brion @ wikimedia.org)
On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 03:49:39PM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
Just because I ask you questions about a bug I can't reproduce on my system without more information from you doesn't mean I'm out to get you.
Quote. Of. The. Year.
Cheers, -- jr 'Scary Devil Monastery' a
"Jay R. Ashworth" jra@baylink.com wrote in message news:20070109005640.GH15818@cgi.jachomes.com...
On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 03:49:39PM -0800, Brion Vibber wrote:
Just because I ask you questions about a bug I can't reproduce on my system without more information from you doesn't mean I'm out to get
you.
Quote. Of. The. Year.
...and it's only January :)
- Mark Clements (HappyDog)
I can find no such option in Firefox 2.0.0.1 on Mac OS X. What operating system are you running?
Windows XP, sorry for being a bit autistic - I have no other OS with a gui running here and assumed Firefox would have the same features on every platform.
If it helps, I think the problem that he's describing can be shown with these two annotated screenshots: http://files.nickj.org/MediaWiki/Print-preview-30-percent-scaling.png http://files.nickj.org/MediaWiki/print-preview-200-percent-scaling.png
All the best, Nick.
Hello,
On Tue, January 9, 2007 00:49, Brion Vibber wrote: ...
I asked you what *you* were running so I could try to reproduce the problem *you* described.
Ok, so I answered and I added some remarks about OS-es.
Sounds like a bug in Firefox; ...
No, really, Firefix works just as designed and as specified.
Well, that would be a surprise; can you show me the design specifications for Firefox's print scaling feature? :)
Ok, there is not a clear standard. But the tendency to interpret CSS more strict was encouraged by Mozilla / Firefox, and rendering a fixed font size _as_ a fixed font size seems like a reasonable decision in this context.
In fact, a quick search through bugzilla shows that this is a known bug:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205001 .. 153080 .. 177805
That some people consider this to be a "bug" doesn't mean that other people before have not thoroughly discussed this point - and decided to code it the way it works now.
.. Scaling, by definition, would need to change the logical resolution of those document absolute units as well.
It might make sense in some applications to have a font-size that will not be scaled - and giving a css designer the choice makes sense as well.
(And in fact the behavior is correct when printing from Firefox on Mac OS X, so the bug appears limited to the printing subsystem on some other platforms.)
The Mac OS, when I remember correctly, has its own font system that might take the decision how to render fonts completely out of the applications hands.
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/monobook/main.css?41 .. and you fill not one font-size in 'pt', only percent, ems ..
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you're trying to convince us that the use of different units in one of our style sheets means that there is not a bug in Firefox's printing modules on some platforms, I don't think I'm convinced. ;)
I was trying to say that the designers of monobook.css were wise not to use 'pt' at all. And that this kind of wisdom should be applied to commonprint.css as well.
Just because I ask you questions about a bug I can't reproduce on my system without more information from you doesn't mean I'm out to get you.
Hey, we're in a mailing list - how should someone "get" someone else? ;-)
// Bernd
On Tue, Jan 09, 2007 at 12:21:40AM +0100, Bernd vdB wrote:
No, really, Firefix works just as designed and as specified. A fixed font size is _meant_ to render fixed, and: "Use of percentage values, or values in 'em's, leads to more robust and cascadable style sheets." ( http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/fonts.html#font-size-props )
Let me throw an oar in the water here:
"Scaling" should, IMHO, in fact override any fixed size element, affecting all of them equally. If I 'Ctrl-+' your webpage in Firefox because it's too small to read on my 1400x1050 laptop panel, and any thing at all doesn't resize... it's broken.
Cheers, -- jra
Correction: "find" not "fill":
And, have a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/monobook/main.css?41 .. and you _find_ not one font-size in 'pt', only percent, ems or 'small' etc.
// Bernd
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