Hi all,
I would like to notice that I am now working on rewrite of mw-bot, called wm-bot (wikimedia bot - it's supposed to serve in various wikimedia chans), the bot now is supporting exactly same functions as mw bot + some more, and I think it would be good if we replaced current mw-bot in future at some point. The reasons are:
- Old bot is written in java and nearly no one has access to source code, neither is managing it, the bot is still running without problems rather thanks to original creator who did a great work and made a very stable code, extending the bot with more features could be problem.
- New bot is in svn (tools/wmib) so that anyone can participate on development and even on operation of the bot
- New bot is running on wmf labs so that it should be running on more stable server with better connectivity and also is better accessible for others, because apart of toolsever it's no problem to give acess to service user account to more devs (anyone with svn account can get access there) so that more people can operate the bot and patch it.
I converted current database and it's running in #mediawiki-move so that you can try various commands like (!mediawiki !b <id>), any feedback on this whole idea and bot is welcome also please before you start commiting changes to source code, keep in mind that I now work on splitting it to more files so that we avoid conflicts when commiting changes, it should be done by today.
Thanks
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:33 AM, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all,
I would like to notice that I am now working on rewrite of mw-bot, called wm-bot (wikimedia bot - it's supposed to serve in various wikimedia chans), the bot now is supporting exactly same functions as mw bot + some more, and I think it would be good if we replaced current mw-bot in future at some point. The reasons are:
- Old bot is written in java and nearly no one has access to source
code, neither is managing it, the bot is still running without problems rather thanks to original creator who did a great work and made a very stable code, extending the bot with more features could be problem.
- New bot is in svn (tools/wmib) so that anyone can participate on
development and even on operation of the bot
- New bot is running on wmf labs so that it should be running on more
stable server with better connectivity and also is better accessible for others, because apart of toolsever it's no problem to give acess to service user account to more devs (anyone with svn account can get access there) so that more people can operate the bot and patch it.
I converted current database and it's running in #mediawiki-move so that you can try various commands like (!mediawiki !b <id>), any feedback on this whole idea and bot is welcome also please before you start commiting changes to source code, keep in mind that I now work on splitting it to more files so that we avoid conflicts when commiting changes, it should be done by today.
Thanks
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
"- Old bot is written in java"
And C# is an improvement?
I don't know java, and no one else is actually maintaining the java code of current bot. I didn't say that it's bad because it's written in java, neither that c# is better, I simply said that it's written in java and that no one is working on the code (it's not even in repository, anyway I don't think there would be many people interested in keeping this version alive).
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 2:24 PM, John Du Hart compwhizii@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:33 AM, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all,
I would like to notice that I am now working on rewrite of mw-bot, called wm-bot (wikimedia bot - it's supposed to serve in various wikimedia chans), the bot now is supporting exactly same functions as mw bot + some more, and I think it would be good if we replaced current mw-bot in future at some point. The reasons are:
- Old bot is written in java and nearly no one has access to source
code, neither is managing it, the bot is still running without problems rather thanks to original creator who did a great work and made a very stable code, extending the bot with more features could be problem.
- New bot is in svn (tools/wmib) so that anyone can participate on
development and even on operation of the bot
- New bot is running on wmf labs so that it should be running on more
stable server with better connectivity and also is better accessible for others, because apart of toolsever it's no problem to give acess to service user account to more devs (anyone with svn account can get access there) so that more people can operate the bot and patch it.
I converted current database and it's running in #mediawiki-move so that you can try various commands like (!mediawiki !b <id>), any feedback on this whole idea and bot is welcome also please before you start commiting changes to source code, keep in mind that I now work on splitting it to more files so that we avoid conflicts when commiting changes, it should be done by today.
Thanks
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
"- Old bot is written in java"
And C# is an improvement?
-- John _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 8:37 AM, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know java, and no one else is actually maintaining the java code of current bot. I didn't say that it's bad because it's written in java, neither that c# is better, I simply said that it's written in java and that no one is working on the code (it's not even in repository, anyway I don't think there would be many people interested in keeping this version alive).
There's no point in starting a language holy war. If it works and someone is maintaining it, then that's good enough for me :)
-Chad
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 7:37 AM, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know java, and no one else is actually maintaining the java code of current bot. I didn't say that it's bad because it's written in java, neither that c# is better, I simply said that it's written in java and that no one is working on the code (it's not even in repository, anyway I don't think there would be many people interested in keeping this version alive).
It's java, so if you have the jar you have the source. And yes we have that too. And yes, there's a few of us 'maintaining' it.
Hi,
Yes, I have both (jar and even source) but that it's possible to get a source didn't really meant to me that someone is managing it, this whole idea was initiated from the discussion with Roan, who is also operating the current bot, it seems to me that there are some areas which could be improved in case you want to keep the current bot. But that' up to you of course, the new bot is already being used in some other channels, like #wikimedia-labs etc. If you want to keep the current bot in #mediawiki that's ok, I just thought that the rest of community could benefit from the new one. Especially thanks to that it's located on labs and it's easier to operate it. Sorry for misunderstandment :)
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 4:12 PM, OQ overlordq@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 7:37 AM, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know java, and no one else is actually maintaining the java code of current bot. I didn't say that it's bad because it's written in java, neither that c# is better, I simply said that it's written in java and that no one is working on the code (it's not even in repository, anyway I don't think there would be many people interested in keeping this version alive).
It's java, so if you have the jar you have the source. And yes we have that too. And yes, there's a few of us 'maintaining' it.
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
Yes, I have both (jar and even source) but that it's possible to get a source didn't really meant to me that someone is managing it, this whole idea was initiated from the discussion with Roan, who is also operating the current bot, it seems to me that there are some areas which could be improved in case you want to keep the current bot. But that' up to you of course, the new bot is already being used in some other channels, like #wikimedia-labs etc. If you want to keep the current bot in #mediawiki that's ok, I just thought that the rest of community could benefit from the new one. Especially thanks to that it's located on labs and it's easier to operate it. Sorry for misunderstandment :)
Like what? And I wouldn't call requiring mono a 'benefit'.
I never said that requiring any interpretor either java or .net is a benefit, I was rather talking about the bot itself, for instance the new bot is easier to operate / manage, it can be inserted to other channels just by typing a command to any channel, which creates new databases for that channel so you can define new keys there, it support more comprehensive search mechanism using regular expressions and allows simple management of access to the bot, so that it's easy to define who can touch the key db etc. that's just a summary of few changes I made to current bot, I don't want to argue with you if .net is better or not, that's not what I say, neither I want to convince you to use this new bot. If you just like the current one, no problem to keep using it. I just thought that some people could be interested in working together on this new bot, since it's located in svn (so all devs can improve it) and binaries on labs (so all devs can operate it). That's my point. Also from what I heard from Roan I wasn't really sure there is someone who is handling the current bot code.
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 4:44 PM, OQ overlordq@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
Hi,
Yes, I have both (jar and even source) but that it's possible to get a source didn't really meant to me that someone is managing it, this whole idea was initiated from the discussion with Roan, who is also operating the current bot, it seems to me that there are some areas which could be improved in case you want to keep the current bot. But that' up to you of course, the new bot is already being used in some other channels, like #wikimedia-labs etc. If you want to keep the current bot in #mediawiki that's ok, I just thought that the rest of community could benefit from the new one. Especially thanks to that it's located on labs and it's easier to operate it. Sorry for misunderstandment :)
Like what? And I wouldn't call requiring mono a 'benefit'.
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
I, for one, appreciate all of the hard work Petr has put into this new bot and am enjoying the functionality.
Thanks Petr!
-- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Leslie Carr lcarr@wikimedia.org wrote:
I, for one, appreciate all of the hard work Petr has put into this new bot and am enjoying the functionality.
Yeah, it's definitely nice to have someone actually maintaining the code and adding improvements.
Yay Petr!
Roan
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Roan Kattouw roan.kattouw@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Leslie Carr lcarr@wikimedia.org wrote:
I, for one, appreciate all of the hard work Petr has put into this new bot and am enjoying the functionality.
Yeah, it's definitely nice to have someone actually maintaining the code and adding improvements.
Well the mwbot wiki page hasn't been touched in a couple years, so if people have said mwbot needed improvements I'm trying to figure out where this was mentioned or brought up.
Agreed. I've wanted most of the stuff Petr has put into this bot in the operations channels for quite a while. It works well, and is being actively maintained.
I don't care what language it is in. Learning a new language enough to do simple fixes and basic maintenance takes a week or two. Who cares about what language its written in?
Thanks Petr.
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:03 AM, Leslie Carr lcarr@wikimedia.org wrote:
I, for one, appreciate all of the hard work Petr has put into this new bot and am enjoying the functionality.
Thanks Petr!
-- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Ryan Lane rlane32@gmail.com wrote:
I don't care what language it is in. Learning a new language enough to do simple fixes and basic maintenance takes a week or two. Who cares about what language its written in?
It's written in Petr, which compiles English to C#, and then interprets the C#. I'm glad Mr. Bena installed it. Most of us know enough English to be able to program in Petr. :)
Hi Mr. Nelson :P
I don't know if you are making fun of my bad english (I am not a native english speaker, so that's why) or from the choice of programming language, however if it's the second I already explained why it's written in c# few hours ago. I hope it's clear enough and actually I can't turn english to c# but I will try to learn it :-) thank you for suggestion
On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Russell Nelson russnelson@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Ryan Lane rlane32@gmail.com wrote:
I don't care what language it is in. Learning a new language enough to do simple fixes and basic maintenance takes a week or two. Who cares about what language its written in?
It's written in Petr, which compiles English to C#, and then interprets the C#. I'm glad Mr. Bena installed it. Most of us know enough English to be able to program in Petr. :) _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Hi Mr. Nelson :P
I don't know if you are making fun of my bad english (I am not a native english speaker, so that's why) or from the choice of programming language, however if it's the second I already explained why it's written in c# few hours ago. I hope it's clear enough and actually I can't turn english to c# but I will try to learn it :-) thank you for suggestion.
It confused me as well on first read :-)
What he is saying is that there is no need for anyone to learn anything. Because they can ask you to code it :-)
Tom
On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Russell Nelson russnelson@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Ryan Lane rlane32@gmail.com wrote:
I don't care what language it is in. Learning a new language enough to do simple fixes and basic maintenance takes a week or two. Who cares about what language its written in?
It's written in Petr, which compiles English to C#, and then interprets the C#. I'm glad Mr. Bena installed it. Most of us know enough English to be able to program in Petr. :) _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 8:10 PM, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Mr. Nelson :P
I don't know if you are making fun of my bad english (I am not a native english speaker, so that's why) or from the choice of programming language, however if it's the second I already explained why it's written in c# few hours ago. I hope it's clear enough and actually I can't turn english to c# but I will try to learn it :-) thank you for suggestion
I believe he was joking that you were around so it doesn't matter what language it was, we could poke you to get things done.
Just making the point that ... with an active maintainer of a project within the ability of one person to support, his choice of language really doesn't matter, as long as it's English. As long as you're continuing to maintain the bot, I don't care if you code it in assembly language, as long as I can speak to you in English to report bugs and request new features.
On the other hand, if you DO program it in assembly language, I'd want to see a copy. Just to admire it. :-)
On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 5:10 AM, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Mr. Nelson :P
I don't know if you are making fun of my bad english (I am not a native english speaker, so that's why) or from the choice of programming language, however if it's the second I already explained why it's written in c# few hours ago. I hope it's clear enough and actually I can't turn english to c# but I will try to learn it :-) thank you for suggestion
On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Russell Nelson russnelson@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Ryan Lane rlane32@gmail.com wrote:
I don't care what language it is in. Learning a new language enough to do simple fixes and basic maintenance takes a week or two. Who cares about what language its written in?
It's written in Petr, which compiles English to C#, and then interprets
the
C#. I'm glad Mr. Bena installed it. Most of us know enough English to be able to program in Petr. :) _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Russell Nelson russnelson@gmail.com wrote:
On the other hand, if you DO program it in assembly language, I'd want to see a copy. Just to admire it. :-)
Do I hear LOLCATS calling?
On 15/12/11 16:12, OQ wrote:
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 7:37 AM, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know java, and no one else is actually maintaining the java code of current bot. I didn't say that it's bad because it's written in java, neither that c# is better, I simply said that it's written in java and that no one is working on the code (it's not even in repository, anyway I don't think there would be many people interested in keeping this version alive).
It's java, so if you have the jar you have the source.
Are you proposing to *decompile* the java classes? (yes, I do have the .jar)
And yes we have that too.
Where?
And yes, there's a few of us 'maintaining' it.
It seems it has been an error by Petr not to involve everyone in the MMP before rewriting it. As it was an error to choose C# (the funny thing is, he chose that language trying to _please_ us)
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Platonides Platonides@gmail.com wrote:
As it was an error to choose C# (the funny thing is, he chose that language trying to _please_ us)
If we can't stop trashing people's choice of programming language and turn this thread back somewhere productive I'm going to kill it.
-Chad
On 16/12/11 19:54, Chad wrote:
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Platonides Platonides@gmail.com wrote:
As it was an error to choose C# (the funny thing is, he chose that language trying to _please_ us)
If we can't stop trashing people's choice of programming language and turn this thread back somewhere productive I'm going to kill it.
-Chad
Sorry, it wasn't clear. I was considering the election an error due to the audience, not to the language merits. I hadn't considered that other interpretation that does seem much more natural, when considered.
There's indeed too much language warring on this thread, instead of discussing what features did the old need, what the proposed alternative adds, etc. from which we could decide if we want to switch.
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 7:35 PM, MZMcBride z@mzmcbride.com wrote:
Chad wrote:
If we can't stop trashing people's choice of programming language and turn this thread back somewhere productive I'm going to kill it.
How, exactly, would you go about that?
By putting on my listmod hat.
-Chad
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Platonides Platonides@gmail.com wrote:
On 15/12/11 16:12, OQ wrote:
It's java, so if you have the jar you have the source.
Are you proposing to *decompile* the java classes? (yes, I do have the .jar)
And yes we have that too.
Where?
I think I have it somewhere in the myraid of HD's I have unplugged. But it may in actuality be the decompiled source, since I can't remember if I grabbed it before amidaniel's svn repo vanished. Either way it's trivially easy to get back to your java files.
http://toolserver.org/~mwbot/mwbot.tar.gz
Took all of 5 minutes, excludes the pircbot framework.
Right so just to close this discussion somehow,
The bot I mentioned is now in some kind of working state and running in several channels, I understood that you definitely don't want to switch from current bot and I am happy with that, but since this one is programmed in a different manner as rather a self-service bot it could be of use to other developers or wikimedia channels who would be in need of similar bot, it's very simple, if you join #wm-bot, have any wikimedia cloak (or mediawiki) you can just type @add [channel] in order to get it to your channel, it automaticaly create a new database for your channel and make you administrator of bot for that channel, more information is available on meta [[WM-Bot]], it has all functions as mw-bot + some more, you are welcome to address any issues or request more features or even change the code to your needs.
@ OQ, Platonides
It's great to know that you recovered somehow the sources of current bot and that you are able to maintain it I am also glad to hear idea of moving it to labs and give it the possibility to handle its operation for more people, unfortunately I have no chance to help you with programming since I have no knowledge of java and from what I have read about it I am probably not even going to learn it (it can't even do some stuff which most of lower level languages as the c++ (surprisingly even c# which isn't low level) can do and I find necessary and everything what can be done in java can be done even in c# so I see no point in learning two languages which can do exactly the same (as Tim noted they are very similar), and although you would probably hate me for being c# guy the main reason I chose it was because it's more close to c++, which is my favorite, than java, at least in the syntax). But to switch back to constructive discussion :) I think I could help you to maintain the current php interface for logs if you put sources to svn. (I know a bit of php)
Thanks to all who participated on this discussion for the ideas and responses!
Peace time :)
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 8:25 PM, OQ overlordq@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Platonides Platonides@gmail.com wrote:
On 15/12/11 16:12, OQ wrote:
It's java, so if you have the jar you have the source.
Are you proposing to *decompile* the java classes? (yes, I do have the .jar)
And yes we have that too.
Where?
I think I have it somewhere in the myraid of HD's I have unplugged. But it may in actuality be the decompiled source, since I can't remember if I grabbed it before amidaniel's svn repo vanished. Either way it's trivially easy to get back to your java files.
http://toolserver.org/~mwbot/mwbot.tar.gz
Took all of 5 minutes, excludes the pircbot framework.
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
I know Java, PHP, JavaScript (ES5, Harmony/.next too), Ruby, Python, and Bash. I could even do Common Lisp. Lua too. I've looked at and used some of various sub-languages. Scala, Groovy, Traceur, Coffee Script, I suppose you could count Rhino too. ((If you want to get into the old stuff, I used a few types of BASIC and Game Maker Language when I was younger)) ((Oh right, I suppose technically I did use a bit of Objective-C when I was looking into iOS development))
I DON'T know C#.
I'll probably learn most of Perl, Erlang, Haskell, and C/C++ (maybe Vala too) before I touch C#.
C# feels like our OCaml code. Something written in a language almost none of us can write such that once the one person who wrote it initially disappears the code starts to go stale and rot.
What would be really nice would be to see the code that runs mw-bot committed and running on labs.
Wow, so many languages, that's cool! But unfortunately I can't pick any language which anyone would be able to use, because everytime there would be someone who doesn't know it, I am really sorry, however learning c# is definitely easy, I've been programming in c++ for many years and when I started with c# it took me less than 1 day to get over basics. I assume that c is like english in programming and some of languages you mentioned have c or similar syntax. I don't know if java is a language which is mastered by more people than c# and I don't even want to start discussion on that topic. :)
If you believe that current bot is better or that more people would like to maintain its source feel free to insert it to svn, and later when it is ready to labs (since I don't know java I am really unable to help you with that). I didn't want to start a war what language / bot is better.
Thanks to others who like it (or not) for comments, I didn't know that anyone is actually using it since it's running 2 days and let me know if you wanted to insert any other feature :)
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 6:47 PM, Daniel Friesen lists@nadir-seen-fire.com wrote:
I know Java, PHP, JavaScript (ES5, Harmony/.next too), Ruby, Python, and Bash. I could even do Common Lisp. Lua too. I've looked at and used some of various sub-languages. Scala, Groovy, Traceur, Coffee Script, I suppose you could count Rhino too. ((If you want to get into the old stuff, I used a few types of BASIC and Game Maker Language when I was younger)) ((Oh right, I suppose technically I did use a bit of Objective-C when I was looking into iOS development))
I DON'T know C#.
I'll probably learn most of Perl, Erlang, Haskell, and C/C++ (maybe Vala too) before I touch C#.
C# feels like our OCaml code. Something written in a language almost none of us can write such that once the one person who wrote it initially disappears the code starts to go stale and rot.
What would be really nice would be to see the code that runs mw-bot committed and running on labs.
-- ~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name] On Thu, 15 Dec 2011 05:37:09 -0800, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know java, and no one else is actually maintaining the java code of current bot. I didn't say that it's bad because it's written in java, neither that c# is better, I simply said that it's written in java and that no one is working on the code (it's not even in repository, anyway I don't think there would be many people interested in keeping this version alive).
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 2:24 PM, John Du Hart compwhizii@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:33 AM, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all,
I would like to notice that I am now working on rewrite of mw-bot, called wm-bot (wikimedia bot - it's supposed to serve in various wikimedia chans), the bot now is supporting exactly same functions as mw bot + some more, and I think it would be good if we replaced current mw-bot in future at some point. The reasons are:
- Old bot is written in java and nearly no one has access to source
code, neither is managing it, the bot is still running without problems rather thanks to original creator who did a great work and made a very stable code, extending the bot with more features could be problem.
- New bot is in svn (tools/wmib) so that anyone can participate on
development and even on operation of the bot
- New bot is running on wmf labs so that it should be running on more
stable server with better connectivity and also is better accessible for others, because apart of toolsever it's no problem to give acess to service user account to more devs (anyone with svn account can get access there) so that more people can operate the bot and patch it.
I converted current database and it's running in #mediawiki-move so that you can try various commands like (!mediawiki !b <id>), any feedback on this whole idea and bot is welcome also please before you start commiting changes to source code, keep in mind that I now work on splitting it to more files so that we avoid conflicts when commiting changes, it should be done by today.
Thanks
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
"- Old bot is written in java"
And C# is an improvement?
-- John _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On 15 December 2011 19:49, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
If you believe that current bot is better or that more people would like to maintain its source feel free to insert it to svn, and later when it is ready to labs (since I don't know java I am really unable to help you with that). I didn't want to start a war what language / bot is better.
I am indeed struggling to see why a volunteer donating their time and skills to produce a tool which is useful to the community, committing that code in a way that makes it as accessible as possible to other developers, prioritising its stability and availability, and soliciting feedback from other members of the community, is in some way something that should be treated with scorn and negativity. If it has both better current functionality than the current code, and more energy for development from its maintainer(s), then it's a useful addition to our suite of tools; if not then it's a useful addition to the corpus of open source software in general. In no circumstances is its existence anything worse than neutral.
--HM
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
- Old bot is written in java and nearly no one has access to source
code, neither is managing it, the bot is still running without> problems rather thanks to original creator who did a great work and> made a very stable code, extending the bot with more features could be> problem.That is due to a slight historical issue, I did ask about getting it in SVN once before, but no one that was around really know about the licenseing conditions of AmiDaniel's work on it and due to his absence I couldn't nag him about it, But I do believe it has been getting given out to anyone that has asked in the channel.
- New bot is running on wmf labs so that it should be running on more
stable server with better connectivity and also is better accessible> for others, because apart of toolsever it's no problem to give acess> to service user account to more devs (anyone with svn account can get> access there) so that more people can operate the bot and patch it.Just for future reference the TS operaterates out of the some DC (and cage) as the WMF cluster since it is housed with, so it generally has the same connectivity as the cluster, The last few connectivity issues mw-bot has had were caused by not handling NetSpilts well.
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 7:02 AM, Happy Melon happy.melon.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
I am indeed struggling to see why a volunteer donating their time and skills to produce a tool which is useful to the community, committing that code in a way that makes it as accessible as possible to other developers, prioritising its stability and availability, and soliciting feedback from other members of the community, is in some way something that should be treated with scorn and negativity.
I believe it may be because the first email sort of sounds like it implies that the current TS multi-group (Roan, Mz, OverlordQ, (and others?)) have been lazy and not updating its features or core code.
The core bot code (PIrcBot) hasn't been touched since at 2009 (and before that 2007) so there wasn't really any need to change that, unless we wanted to use one of the forks (I believe ^demon does jenkins bot) and as OverlordQ pointed out he hasn't seen any requests for new features.
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:33 PM, K. Peachey p858snake@gmail.com wrote: (I believe ^demon does
jenkins bot)
mw-jenkinsbot is managed by a plugin to Jenkins. No maintenance on my part.
-Chad
Happy Melon wrote:
On 15 December 2011 19:49, Petr Bena benapetr@gmail.com wrote:
If you believe that current bot is better or that more people would like to maintain its source feel free to insert it to svn, and later when it is ready to labs (since I don't know java I am really unable to help you with that). I didn't want to start a war what language / bot is better.
I am indeed struggling to see why a volunteer donating their time and skills to produce a tool which is useful to the community, committing that code in a way that makes it as accessible as possible to other developers, prioritising its stability and availability, and soliciting feedback from other members of the community, is in some way something that should be treated with scorn and negativity. If it has both better current functionality than the current code, and more energy for development from its maintainer(s), then it's a useful addition to our suite of tools; if not then it's a useful addition to the corpus of open source software in general. In no circumstances is its existence anything worse than neutral.
It reads mostly like a wariness thing to me. Someone shows up, contributes some code, and promises stability. If they're known in the community and have an established reputation, great. If not, there's wariness. If someone quickly gets bored with the project, you possibly end up with a worse situation.
I'm not sure what kind of stability is expected from the labs instances/hosts. It'd be nice to get a firmer answer on that before switching hosts. The Toolserver is largely stable, so any jump to a different host should be able to approximately match (or beat!) it.
I've considered rewriting mwbot before (in Python). Any replacement needs to maintain the channel logs. That's one of the primary reasons I didn't feel like doing a rewrite. Preferably in roughly the same format (file naming, file type, etc.). And those logs will need to be hosted and accessible (and preferably searchable). They're currently on the Toolserver and largely consolidated at this point, I think. There's a hackish tool on top that can run grep on the logs from a web UI.
There is some sort of issue with encoding in the current logs, I think. So if you rewrite that functionality, there might be an improvement if you can output everything sanely. :-)
MZMcBride
Thank you for reply,
the current logs are stored at http://bots.wmflabs.org/~petrb/logs/ for instance the dev channel is logged (some of the channels are not being logged althought the folder exist), you can just jump for instance to #mediawiki-move and type anything there (it's empty channel), you would see if it's ok, if not let me know. I want to create some php pages for searching the logs and place them to svn as well.
Concerning "wariness": You didn't get my point, this new bot is supposed to be managed by community, not a single person, so there should be any problem with "trustworth" it doesn't matter if you trust me or not, the source code is in svn, so that you can see what is there, you can change it or fix it, the binary is installed on instance on labs which would be probably accessible in the future to anyone who would apply for access and has svn account, so that anyone else who would like to operate the bot could do that, and easily help with the job of any other operator who wouldn't have a time for that. However as I already noted, if there is someone who actively maintain the current bot, I see absolutely no reason to convince you to switch to this one.
On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:57 AM, MZMcBride z@mzmcbride.com wrote:
It reads mostly like a wariness thing to me. Someone shows up, contributes some code, and promises stability. If they're known in the community and have an established reputation, great. If not, there's wariness. If someone quickly gets bored with the project, you possibly end up with a worse situation.
I'm not sure what kind of stability is expected from the labs instances/hosts. It'd be nice to get a firmer answer on that before switching hosts. The Toolserver is largely stable, so any jump to a different host should be able to approximately match (or beat!) it.
I've considered rewriting mwbot before (in Python). Any replacement needs to maintain the channel logs. That's one of the primary reasons I didn't feel like doing a rewrite. Preferably in roughly the same format (file naming, file type, etc.). And those logs will need to be hosted and accessible (and preferably searchable). They're currently on the Toolserver and largely consolidated at this point, I think. There's a hackish tool on top that can run grep on the logs from a web UI.
There is some sort of issue with encoding in the current logs, I think. So if you rewrite that functionality, there might be an improvement if you can output everything sanely. :-)
MZMcBride
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On 16/12/11 04:47, Daniel Friesen wrote:
I know Java, PHP, JavaScript (ES5, Harmony/.next too), Ruby, Python, and Bash. I could even do Common Lisp. Lua too. I've looked at and used some of various sub-languages. Scala, Groovy, Traceur, Coffee Script, I suppose you could count Rhino too. ((If you want to get into the old stuff, I used a few types of BASIC and Game Maker Language when I was younger)) ((Oh right, I suppose technically I did use a bit of Objective-C when I was looking into iOS development))
I DON'T know C#.
C# is basically Microsoft's clone of Java, with a few minor details changed so that they can claim it is a new language. Brion worked in it a bit when we used Lucene.NET with Mono, he said it was so similar to Java that you could copy code from one to the other and it would usually work unmodified. I did a small patch to our Lucene.NET HTTP server, with only my Java skills to guide me, I didn't have any difficulties.
Of course the system libraries are different, but both are well-documented.
I recommend using Java over C# where possible, since familiarity with Java is more common among our core contributors. It shouldn't be difficult for someone who knows one of them to port code from the other.
-- Tim Starling
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