On 8 mrt. 2014, at 21:48, Russell Nelson russnelson@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Derk-Jan Hartman d.j.hartman+wmf_ml@gmail.com wrote:
This is thinking way too simple. Would it be nice to be able to do this ? Sure, but we already have dynamic maps. WikiMiniAtlas, the german OSM map. Those even have area highlights these days. Can they be better ? sure, is that something difficult, is it really needed ? No not really x2. Wikipedians are much more focused on making static maps usually.
Refutation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interurban_and_streetcar_railways_in_Syracuse,_... That map is utter crap, completely unusable for any kind of mobile usage, even if it were georeferenced.
Is it possible / useful to generate thematic renderings of OSM tiles? Sure, and they look really good, for example here: http://www.itoworld.com/map/15
My feeling is that Wikipedia has desperately needed a map generator, whether static or dynamic, for at least five years now. Yet something always comes between Wikipedia and OSM for some reason. I think it's because people keep saying that that's too easy! We need to do something better, something more complicated, something that's a real challenge. Well, if it's so simple, why doesn't every page with coordinates have a map?? Obviously, it's NOT that simple.
I see I failed to make my point. Its indeed NOT simple. We keep thinking that it's simple: 'build some technology and people will come' but models like that have proven to fail quite often (especially on en.wp). You need to find the user stories, find the building blocks and see where you get the most return for your money/effort. If you want something to succeed, you need a very concerted effort that leads to integration and acceptance. Not just one thing: Let's build the map. You need a line of careful steps with goals and metrics, reflection and evaluation. One of those steps might be to "build the map", but it's definitely not the only one.
DJ
It's great to see these conflicting ideas!
I agree, this is not simple at all - this is why we have no map namespace, but there is definitely a need. I'm hoping Zurich can provide a platform where we can get somewhere close in that direction and generate some momentum.
The fact we have a BetaFeatures now on the desktop site means we are free to explore ideas, for those ideas to fail and to buy us time to perfect them.
I personally am interested purely from a readers perspective - it makes me sad everytime I see a static map made out of CSS and SVGs that looks like something I could play with and explore. I want maps to be a big part of the Wikipedia experience.
I really think a good first step would be to lay the foundations - keep things as simple as possible - a simple way of storing the data and a simple way of viewing the data stored - whether that involves Wikidata or not I'm not sure but let's see what comes out of Zurich. For those not in Zurich, I hope some of you can participate on the IRC channel #wikimedia-dev ?
If we come out of Zurich with various different solutions to the same problem that would also be awesome - a good problem to solve in future. :-)
On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 1:54 PM, Derk-Jan Hartman d.j.hartman+wmf_ml@gmail.com wrote:
On 8 mrt. 2014, at 21:48, Russell Nelson russnelson@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Derk-Jan Hartman d.j.hartman+wmf_ml@gmail.com wrote:
This is thinking way too simple. Would it be nice to be able to do this ? Sure, but we already have dynamic maps. WikiMiniAtlas, the german OSM map. Those even have area highlights these days. Can they be better ? sure, is that something difficult, is it really needed ? No not really x2. Wikipedians are much more focused on making static maps usually.
Refutation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interurban_and_streetcar_railways_in_Syracuse,_... That map is utter crap, completely unusable for any kind of mobile usage, even if it were georeferenced.
Is it possible / useful to generate thematic renderings of OSM tiles? Sure, and they look really good, for example here: http://www.itoworld.com/map/15
My feeling is that Wikipedia has desperately needed a map generator, whether static or dynamic, for at least five years now. Yet something always comes between Wikipedia and OSM for some reason. I think it's because people keep saying that that's too easy! We need to do something better, something more complicated, something that's a real challenge. Well, if it's so simple, why doesn't every page with coordinates have a map?? Obviously, it's NOT that simple.
I see I failed to make my point. Its indeed NOT simple. We keep thinking that it's simple: 'build some technology and people will come' but models like that have proven to fail quite often (especially on en.wp). You need to find the user stories, find the building blocks and see where you get the most return for your money/effort. If you want something to succeed, you need a very concerted effort that leads to integration and acceptance. Not just one thing: Let's build the map. You need a line of careful steps with goals and metrics, reflection and evaluation. One of those steps might be to "build the map", but it's definitely not the only one.
DJ
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