Hello,
The Release Engineering team will be expanding the set of people responsible for the weekly MediaWiki train deployments[0] to include people working normal European hours. Unfortunately, the current MW train deployment window is too late in the day for them.
To address this we are adding a European-focused timeslot for the MW train (and moving the current "EU SWAT window" 2 hours earlier to accommodate).
The first planned use of the new window will be next week, the week of July 9th.
For the avoidance of doubt: the normal MW train windows will not go away, these EU-timezone ones are in addition to them and only used during weeks that the train is conducted by someone in Europe. But, the EU SWAT window will indeed be permanently moved for simplicity (IOW: not dependent upon who's doing the train).
== European train window and changes == This would affect Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday
* 1300-1400 CEST (1100-1200 UTC) - EU SWAT window (2 hours earlier) * 1400-1500 CEST (1200-1300 UTC) - Break * 1500-1700 CEST (1300-1500 UTC) - EU Train window * 1700-1800 CEST (1500-1600 UTC) - Break * 1800-1900 CEST (1600-1700 UTC) - PuppetSWAT (Tue/Thu only, no change)
Also, at the same time we'll be moving the Wednesday morning (SF time) SWAT window on hour earlier to 9am Pacific. This is to alleviate a contention with the weekly Scrum of Scrums meeting.
Best,
Greg
[0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.32/Roadmap
Reminder that this is starting this week (tomorrow).
<quote name="Greg Grossmeier" date="2018-07-02" time="11:21:53 -0700">
Hello,
The Release Engineering team will be expanding the set of people responsible for the weekly MediaWiki train deployments[0] to include people working normal European hours. Unfortunately, the current MW train deployment window is too late in the day for them.
To address this we are adding a European-focused timeslot for the MW train (and moving the current "EU SWAT window" 2 hours earlier to accommodate).
The first planned use of the new window will be next week, the week of July 9th.
For the avoidance of doubt: the normal MW train windows will not go away, these EU-timezone ones are in addition to them and only used during weeks that the train is conducted by someone in Europe. But, the EU SWAT window will indeed be permanently moved for simplicity (IOW: not dependent upon who's doing the train).
== European train window and changes == This would affect Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday
- 1300-1400 CEST (1100-1200 UTC) - EU SWAT window (2 hours earlier)
- 1400-1500 CEST (1200-1300 UTC) - Break
- 1500-1700 CEST (1300-1500 UTC) - EU Train window
- 1700-1800 CEST (1500-1600 UTC) - Break
- 1800-1900 CEST (1600-1700 UTC) - PuppetSWAT (Tue/Thu only, no change)
Also, at the same time we'll be moving the Wednesday morning (SF time) SWAT window on hour earlier to 9am Pacific. This is to alleviate a contention with the weekly Scrum of Scrums meeting.
Best,
Greg
[0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.32/Roadmap
-- | Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E | | Release Team Manager A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
Hello Greg,
I think this is a great initiative and will surely ease work for all people working on the positive spectrum of UTC :)
One question/clarification, though: deployment windows have traditionally been pinned to SF time (wrt DST changes, concretely), but in your email you list them in CEST/UTC. Does that imply that these slots are pinned to Europe's DST, UTC or will they stay pinned to pacific DST?
Cheers, Marko
Marko Obrovac, PhD Senior Services Engineer Wikimedia Foundation
On 9 July 2018 at 20:28, Greg Grossmeier greg@wikimedia.org wrote:
Reminder that this is starting this week (tomorrow).
<quote name="Greg Grossmeier" date="2018-07-02" time="11:21:53 -0700"> > Hello, > > The Release Engineering team will be expanding the set of people > responsible for the weekly MediaWiki train deployments[0] to include > people working normal European hours. Unfortunately, the current MW > train deployment window is too late in the day for them. > > To address this we are adding a European-focused timeslot for the MW > train (and moving the current "EU SWAT window" 2 hours earlier to > accommodate). > > The first planned use of the new window will be next week, the week of > July 9th. > > For the avoidance of doubt: the normal MW train windows will not go > away, these EU-timezone ones are in addition to them and only used > during weeks that the train is conducted by someone in Europe. But, the > EU SWAT window will indeed be permanently moved for simplicity (IOW: not > dependent upon who's doing the train). > > == European train window and changes == > This would affect Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday > > * 1300-1400 CEST (1100-1200 UTC) - EU SWAT window (2 hours earlier) > * 1400-1500 CEST (1200-1300 UTC) - Break > * 1500-1700 CEST (1300-1500 UTC) - EU Train window > * 1700-1800 CEST (1500-1600 UTC) - Break > * 1800-1900 CEST (1600-1700 UTC) - PuppetSWAT (Tue/Thu only, no change) > > > Also, at the same time we'll be moving the Wednesday morning (SF time) > SWAT window on hour earlier to 9am Pacific. This is to alleviate a > contention with the weekly Scrum of Scrums meeting. > > Best, > > Greg > > [0] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki_1.32/Roadmap > > -- > | Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E | > | Release Team Manager A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
-- | Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E | | Release Team Manager A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
Engineering mailing list Engineering@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/engineering
<quote name="Marko Obrovac" date="2018-07-10" time="12:09:19 +0200">
One question/clarification, though: deployment windows have traditionally been pinned to SF time (wrt DST changes, concretely), but in your email you list them in CEST/UTC. Does that imply that these slots are pinned to Europe's DST, UTC or will they stay pinned to pacific DST?
Great question! (Unfortunately) for simplicity we will keep the windows pinned to SF/Pacific timezone. Some windows moving and others not would create too much confusion; even more than the normal daylight savings changes already do.
Thanks,
Greg
On 11 July 2018 at 00:47, Greg Grossmeier greg@wikimedia.org wrote:
Great question! (Unfortunately) for simplicity we will keep the windows pinned to SF/Pacific timezone. Some windows moving and others not would create too much confusion; even more than the normal daylight savings changes already do.
It seems to me that it will be confusing only to non-US people, honestly, which are the ones benefiting from this change. When DST changes are applied, and because they are not applied at the same across the globe, people will see their SWAT times change for no apparent reason. At the same time, there is plenty of hours of difference between the last deploy window mentioned in your email and the first SF-centric deployment window to account for the periods when DST settings vary.
I believe that pinning them to UTC would actually eliminate the confusion.
My 2 cents, Marko
Marko Obrovac, PhD Senior Services Engineer Wikimedia Foundation
Thanks,
Greg
-- | Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E | | Release Team Manager A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
Engineering mailing list Engineering@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/engineering
I agree with Marko, every time there is a DST change my calendar is totally messed up (some events are pinned to the Pacific time zone, other to the Central European time zone). By pinning everything to UTC we could save that confusion.
On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 9:05 AM Marko Obrovac mobrovac@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 11 July 2018 at 00:47, Greg Grossmeier greg@wikimedia.org wrote:
Great question! (Unfortunately) for simplicity we will keep the windows pinned to SF/Pacific timezone. Some windows moving and others not would create too much confusion; even more than the normal daylight savings changes already do.
It seems to me that it will be confusing only to non-US people, honestly, which are the ones benefiting from this change. When DST changes are applied, and because they are not applied at the same across the globe, people will see their SWAT times change for no apparent reason. At the same time, there is plenty of hours of difference between the last deploy window mentioned in your email and the first SF-centric deployment window to account for the periods when DST settings vary.
I believe that pinning them to UTC would actually eliminate the confusion.
My 2 cents, Marko
Marko Obrovac, PhD Senior Services Engineer Wikimedia Foundation
Thanks,
Greg
-- | Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E | | Release Team Manager A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
Engineering mailing list Engineering@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/engineering
Engineering mailing list Engineering@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/engineering
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Hi,
On 07/11/2018 12:05 AM, Marko Obrovac wrote:
It seems to me that it will be confusing only to non-US people, honestly, which are the ones benefiting from this change. When DST changes are applied, and because they are not applied at the same across the globe, people will see their SWAT times change for no apparent reason. At the same time, there is plenty of hours of difference between the last deploy window mentioned in your email and the first SF-centric deployment window to account for the periods when DST settings vary.
(un)relatedly: * EU survey to remove summertime/DST: https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/2018-summertime-arrangements?surve ylanguage=EN * California Proposition 7 (2018) to institute a permanent DST: https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_7,_Permanent_Daylight_Sa ving_Time_Measure_(2018)
Hopefully we can get rid of this problem at the root cause as well :)
- -- Legoktm
On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Kunal Mehta legoktm@member.fsf.org wrote:
(un)relatedly:
- EU survey to remove summertime/DST:
https://ec.europa.eu/eusurvey/runner/2018-summertime-arrangements?surve ylanguage=EN
- California Proposition 7 (2018) to institute a permanent DST:
https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_7,_Permanent_Daylight_Sa ving_Time_Measure_(2018)
Hopefully we can get rid of this problem at the root cause as well :)
You forgot about most of the rest of the US ;)
<quote name="Marko Obrovac" date="2018-07-11" time="09:05:29 +0200">
I believe that pinning them to UTC would actually eliminate the confusion.
Two thoughts...
1) If we do this let's do this for all European-focused windows.
That would be the European mid-day SWAT window and the Train window, to start (there are some other one-off type windows, eg the Portals window, that would probably also make sense to be pinned to non-SF time, but it's up to those individuals/teams).
2) I believe it makes more sense to pin the windows to the human experience time of those who are responsible for doing the window (eg: follows DST/Summer time in Europe). That way the deployment windows continue to stay at the same time relative to people's other meetings (which, some are coordinated with the various deploy (SWAT and Train) windows). That's what we do for all of the rest of the windows (pinned to Pacific/SF time, which changes based on DST) and would then be less of a surprise for everyone.
Based on this map[0] it appears the vast majority of our contributors and deployers live in DST-affected (inflicted? infected? ;-) ) countries.
Greg
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_by_country#/media/File:DS...
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