I think we should explore this. I don't think this is about extra clicks... On tablets like desktop we expand sections by default but __allow___ them to be collapsible. It would be interesting to add some event logging to see how widely used that feature is on tablet. It could thus also be useful for desktop and I wouldn't outright dismiss it without evidence to backup it's usefulness. Like Eallan I find this feature useful on both mobile and desktop (I use mobile site as my desktop experience) for navigating around complex documents. Eallan happy to combine brainpower and work out a sensible test to see if it is useful or not if you are.

(I've CC'd the design-list, for all of these ideas. Design: please see the earlier part of this thread (7 msgs) for more context, at https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-December/079793.html) On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 8:15 PM, Krinkle <krinklemail(a)gmail.com> wrote: Re: Collapsible - I strongly agree that collapsing content is potentially harmful, and should be avoided as much as possible. It increases the effort required to see content, and thereby reduces the likelihood of any given section being seen. This is bad for readers (harder to access knowledge), and bad for editors/potential-editors (harder to spot errors/vandalism during casual reading). It goes for article content as well as navigational elements and metadata. Footer-navboxes are frequently collapsed, and I think this has established a harmful precedent. (See also [[Linus's Law]], "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow". We need more eyeballs, not less.) Re: ToC improvements - Agreed. As always, the difficulty is with fitting it in somewhere, given the diversity of screen/browser-window sizes that each user has or prefers. It would be especially useful on long articles, but it would also take up the most space there. I'm not sure where the most recent brainstorming and notes are, regarding the standard mediawiki sidebar? I know it's been discussed a *lot* over the years... Re: "birds eye view" - I really like this idea, taken to the 'completism' level... A number of text/code editors, have a "minimap" attached to the side. http://did2memo.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/minimap-in-sublime-text-2.png http://i.imgur.com/OIhkpfA.png http://notepad-plus-plus.org/assets/images/docMap.png It works as an enhanced-scrollbar, and as an overview, and it shows text-selections from ctrl-F. I think something similar to this would potentially help us: * To better understand the scope of an article/section/entry, upon first loading the page. * As editors, to find & refine wall-of-text paragraphs. * Encourage light-readers to scroll more, particularly if they see thumbnails of images - in the same way that good textbooks can use images as content-hooks. * more? It would need Increased font size for headings, to enable ToC-like functionality. And some sort of minimal-version, for users who find animated-aspects too distracting. What else? It might be too complicated to be a global default (UX-wise, and/or Performance-wise), but I'd love to see something like this as an option (toggle or preference or gadget). HTH. --Quiddity

On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:42 PM, quiddity <pandiculation(a)gmail.com> wrote: Requesting it to be promoted to a gadget on en.wikipedia.org would be a good first step to wider visibility (nearly the same as a beta feature in terms of script abilities and user method for enabling). Community scripts FTW :) @Prateek I've made a few improvements you may want to import: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Krinkle/toc.js?action=history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Krinkle/toc.css?action=history -- Krinkle

On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Krinkle <krinklemail(a)gmail.com> wrote: A buggy experiment: importStylesheet( 'User:Prtksxna/toc.css' ); importScript( 'User:Prtksxna/toc.js' ); Tested on latest Firefox and Chrome. Refreshing a couple of times usually takes care of any visual bugs. http://cl.ly/Z7DO http://cl.ly/Z7B4

Krinkle <krinklemail <at> gmail.com> writes: it may be better-than-nothing as would be an adequate feature for more accessible throughout the iOS app). Having a proper TOC times, jump to any section at any time, one would expect. optimisations such as not loading What is the differences between an extension and a gadget? Eallan

Okay I had a long hard think about this. I would suggest the following EventLogging experiment on the mobile website: Question to answer: If section collapsing is provided to users in such a way that sections are open by default, do users find the ability to collapse sections a useful feature? To run this experiment: * We will run EventLogging on a certain set of pages that we know are popular on tablet devices (we can make this configurable - maybe set to the top 5 visited articles on the previous day) * We will log an event for page views to these pages with a unique session id * We will log an event when a section is toggled closed on these pages with the same unique session id * After collecting substantial data on the target pages we will analyse that data to see what we find. What % of visits toggled close at least one section. We can then come back to this discussion with a proposal over whether we think it would be a useful feature on desktop. Eallan is this something you would be interested in doing with guidance and support for the mobile web team?

Why not add it to the core of mediawiki including the mobile version. On Friday, 19 December 2014, 16:40, Eallan Wong &lt;h.yilun(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Jon Robson <jdlrobson <at> gmail.com> writes: I am thinking about whether the experiment is necessary. The experiment is not a easy job. I am wondering that whether adding the section folding feature is easier than processing the experiment? Also, adding the folding feature do no harm on the visiting words on Wiki, since all sections are unfolded in the desktop side, and we can set all sections unfolded. Additionally, even few people prefer using folding, we still can add this feature, because this feature didn't affect the people who didn't fold sections. Eallan _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l