Hi all! I am thinking about a new idea about a content tree extension of web/desktop/computer Wiki. When I use mobile phone to access website of Wikipedia, I can fold and unfold a content item of the content tree. That's very convenient. However, when I use computer to access Wiki, there is no such feature, I can not fold or unfold a content item. So shall we add this feature from mobile Wiki to the web/computer Wiki? In other words, let the user able to fold and unfold any content item at any level of the content tree. For example, I search Taipei, I get 1. History, 2. Geography, 1.1 First settlements, and 1.2 Japaneses rule ect. So I would like to able to unfold 1. History, and 1.1 First settlements, or I just unfold 1. History and fold 1.1 First Settlements to see 1.2 Japanese rule which is unfolded. So I would like to fold and unfold any level content items to further the visit quality. The mobile side wiki also can improve, since it can only fold and unfold the first level content item.
Also,add a go-back button which let the user go back to the content tree from any content item of any level in the content tree.
Eallan
On Dec 9, 2014 1:35 PM, "Eallan" h.yilun@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all! I am thinking about a new idea about a content tree extension of web/desktop/computer Wiki. When I use mobile phone to access website of Wikipedia, I can fold and unfold a content item of the content tree.
That's
very convenient. However, when I use computer to access Wiki, there is no such feature, I can not fold or unfold a content item. So shall we add
this
feature from mobile Wiki to the web/computer Wiki? In other words, let the user able to fold and unfold any content item at any level of the content tree. For example, I search Taipei, I get 1. History, 2. Geography, 1.1 First settlements, and 1.2 Japaneses rule ect. So I would like to able to unfold 1. History, and 1.1 First settlements, or I just unfold 1. History and fold 1.1 First Settlements to see 1.2 Japanese rule which is unfolded. So I would like to fold and unfold any level content items to further the visit quality. The mobile side wiki also can improve, since it can only fold and unfold the first level content item.
Also,add a go-back button which let the user go back to the content tree from any content item of any level in the content tree.
Eallan _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Im unsure that would be wanted on the desktop wiki. Desktop doesnt have the space constraints of mobile, and extra clicks should usually be avoided if possible.
--bawilff
Im unsure that would be wanted on the desktop wiki. Desktop doesnt have
the
space constraints of mobile, and extra clicks should usually be avoided
if
possible.
--bawilff
This feature will not add extra clicks, because you can set unfolded as the default status, when you want to fold some content items, then you clicks.
Eallan
On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Eallan h.yilun@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all! I am thinking about a new idea about a content tree extension of web/desktop/computer Wiki. When I use mobile phone to access website of Wikipedia, I can fold and unfold a content item of the content tree. That's very convenient. However, when I use computer to access Wiki, there is no such feature, I can not fold or unfold a content item. So shall we add this feature from mobile Wiki to the web/computer Wiki? In other words, let the user able to fold and unfold any content item at any level of the content tree. For example, I search Taipei, I get 1. History, 2. Geography, 1.1 First settlements, and 1.2 Japaneses rule ect. So I would like to able to unfold 1. History, and 1.1 First settlements, or I just unfold 1. History and fold 1.1 First Settlements to see 1.2 Japanese rule which is unfolded. So I would like to fold and unfold any level content items to further the visit quality. The mobile side wiki also can improve, since it can only fold and unfold the first level content item.
Also,add a go-back button which let the user go back to the content tree from any content item of any level in the content tree.
Eallan
I think we should explore this. I don't think this is about extra clicks... On tablets like desktop we expand sections by default but __allow___ them to be collapsible. It would be interesting to add some event logging to see how widely used that feature is on tablet.
It could thus also be useful for desktop and I wouldn't outright dismiss it without evidence to backup it's usefulness.
Like Eallan I find this feature useful on both mobile and desktop (I use mobile site as my desktop experience) for navigating around complex documents.
Eallan happy to combine brainpower and work out a sensible test to see if it is useful or not if you are.
I'm not sure we should implement collapsible sections for desktop.
If built and instrumented, one may find that users use it a fair bit and it may be better-than-nothing as solution for certain use cases. But I don't think collapsible sections would be an adequate feature for those use cases.
Our table of contents is in desperate need of improvement. Having that be more accessible throughout the reading experience would be a big step forward[1] (much like the Wikipedia iOS app). Having a proper TOC means users don't have to collapse/expand anything.
This would allow users to have a birds eye view of the document at all times, jump to any section at any time, whilst still being able to scroll through the document top to bottom as one would expect.
From a performance viewpoint (as opposed to usability) we can still do optimisations such as not loading images until a section is accessed (lazy-load).
-- Krinkle
[1] Different ideas around an "aside"-accessible table of contents: * http://underscorejs.org/ * Wikipedia iOS App: http://i.imgur.com/Sg0pqsg.jpg * User manual: http://asciidoctor.org/docs/user-manual/
(I've CC'd the design-list, for all of these ideas. Design: please see the earlier part of this thread (7 msgs) for more context, at https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2014-December/079793.html)
On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 8:15 PM, Krinkle krinklemail@gmail.com wrote:
I'm not sure we should implement collapsible sections for desktop.
If built and instrumented, one may find that users use it a fair bit and it may be better-than-nothing as solution for certain use cases. But I don't think collapsible sections would be an adequate feature for those use cases.
Our table of contents is in desperate need of improvement. Having that be more accessible throughout the reading experience would be a big step forward[1] (much like the Wikipedia iOS app). Having a proper TOC means users don't have to collapse/expand anything.
This would allow users to have a birds eye view of the document at all times, jump to any section at any time, whilst still being able to scroll through the document top to bottom as one would expect.
From a performance viewpoint (as opposed to usability) we can still do optimisations such as not loading images until a section is accessed (lazy-load).
-- Krinkle
[1] Different ideas around an "aside"-accessible table of contents:
- http://underscorejs.org/
- Wikipedia iOS App: http://i.imgur.com/Sg0pqsg.jpg
- User manual: http://asciidoctor.org/docs/user-manual/
Re: Collapsible - I strongly agree that collapsing content is potentially harmful, and should be avoided as much as possible. It increases the effort required to see content, and thereby reduces the likelihood of any given section being seen. This is bad for readers (harder to access knowledge), and bad for editors/potential-editors (harder to spot errors/vandalism during casual reading). It goes for article content as well as navigational elements and metadata. Footer-navboxes are frequently collapsed, and I think this has established a harmful precedent. (See also [[Linus's Law]], "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow". We need more eyeballs, not less.)
Re: ToC improvements - Agreed. As always, the difficulty is with fitting it in somewhere, given the diversity of screen/browser-window sizes that each user has or prefers. It would be especially useful on long articles, but it would also take up the most space there. I'm not sure where the most recent brainstorming and notes are, regarding the standard mediawiki sidebar? I know it's been discussed a *lot* over the years...
Re: "birds eye view" - I really like this idea, taken to the 'completism' level... A number of text/code editors, have a "minimap" attached to the side. http://did2memo.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/minimap-in-sublime-text-2.png http://i.imgur.com/OIhkpfA.png http://notepad-plus-plus.org/assets/images/docMap.png It works as an enhanced-scrollbar, and as an overview, and it shows text-selections from ctrl-F.
I think something similar to this would potentially help us: * To better understand the scope of an article/section/entry, upon first loading the page. * As editors, to find & refine wall-of-text paragraphs. * Encourage light-readers to scroll more, particularly if they see thumbnails of images - in the same way that good textbooks can use images as content-hooks. * more?
It would need Increased font size for headings, to enable ToC-like functionality. And some sort of minimal-version, for users who find animated-aspects too distracting. What else?
It might be too complicated to be a global default (UX-wise, and/or Performance-wise), but I'd love to see something like this as an option (toggle or preference or gadget).
HTH. --Quiddity
On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 2:20 PM, quiddity pandiculation@gmail.com wrote:
[...] Re: "birds eye view" - I really like this idea, taken to the 'completism' level... A number of text/code editors, have a "minimap" attached to the side.
http://did2memo.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/minimap-in-sublime-text-2.png http://i.imgur.com/OIhkpfA.png http://notepad-plus-plus.org/assets/images/docMap.png It works as an enhanced-scrollbar, and as an overview, and it shows text-selections from ctrl-F.
I think something similar to this would potentially help us:
- To better understand the scope of an article/section/entry, upon first
loading the page.
- As editors, to find & refine wall-of-text paragraphs.
- Encourage light-readers to scroll more, particularly if they see
thumbnails of images - in the same way that good textbooks can use images as content-hooks.
- more?
It would need Increased font size for headings, to enable ToC-like functionality. And some sort of minimal-version, for users who find animated-aspects too distracting. What else?
It might be too complicated to be a global default (UX-wise, and/or Performance-wise), but I'd love to see something like this as an option (toggle or preference or gadget).
Matma Rex made a proof-of-concept for this article-minimap idea. Code: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Matma_Rex/article-map.js Screenshots: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Minimap_script_screenshot_1.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Minimap_script_screenshot_2.png By default, it just shows a button in the top corner, labeled "Render minimap". The rendered minimap is clickable, hence functions as a giant scrollbar.
It doesn't work as a ToC-replacement (for which Prateek's experiment is a much better contender), but it is a very interesting script, that I'll certainly leave enabled for the forseeable future.
On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 3:42 AM, Prateek Saxena psaxena@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Krinkle krinklemail@gmail.com wrote:
Our table of contents is in desperate need of improvement. Having that
be more accessible throughout the reading experience would be a big step forward[1] (much like the Wikipedia iOS app). Having a proper TOC means users don't have to collapse/expand anything.
A buggy experiment:
importStylesheet( 'User:Prtksxna/toc.css' ); importScript( 'User:Prtksxna/toc.js' );Tested on latest Firefox and Chrome. Refreshing a couple of times usually takes care of any visual bugs.
This is great indeed! Could this eventually be a new Beta Feature?
On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 11:42 PM, quiddity pandiculation@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 3:42 AM, Prateek Saxena psaxena@wikimedia.org wrote:
On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Krinkle krinklemail@gmail.com wrote:
Our table of contents is in desperate need of improvement. Having that
be more accessible throughout the reading experience would be a big step forward[1] (much like the Wikipedia iOS app). Having a proper TOC means users don't have to collapse/expand anything.
A buggy experiment:
importStylesheet( 'User:Prtksxna/toc.css' ); importScript( 'User:Prtksxna/toc.js' );Tested on latest Firefox and Chrome. Refreshing a couple of times usually takes care of any visual bugs.
This is great indeed! Could this eventually be a new Beta Feature?
Requesting it to be promoted to a gadget on en.wikipedia.org would be a good first step to wider visibility (nearly the same as a beta feature in terms of script abilities and user method for enabling). Community scripts FTW :)
@Prateek I've made a few improvements you may want to import:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Krinkle/toc.js?action=history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Krinkle/toc.css?action=history
-- Krinkle
On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 11:52 PM, Krinkle krinklemail@gmail.com wrote:
@Prateek I've made a few improvements you may want to import.
Thanks Timo! Done! https://github.com/prtksxna/persistent-toc/commit/fe0a0653b56e7a4e3c9f025c32...
Moved the script to Github for easier patching. https://github.com/prtksxna/persistent-toc#persistent-table-of-contents-for-...
On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Krinkle krinklemail@gmail.com wrote:
Our table of contents is in desperate need of improvement. Having that be more accessible throughout the reading experience would be a big step forward[1] (much like the Wikipedia iOS app). Having a proper TOC means users don't have to collapse/expand anything.
A buggy experiment:
importStylesheet( 'User:Prtksxna/toc.css' ); importScript( 'User:Prtksxna/toc.js' );
Tested on latest Firefox and Chrome. Refreshing a couple of times usually takes care of any visual bugs.
Il 29/12/2014 12:42, Prateek Saxena ha scritto:
On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Krinklekrinklemail@gmail.com wrote:
Our table of contents is in desperate need of improvement. Having that be more accessible throughout the reading experience would be a big step forward[1] (much like the Wikipedia iOS app). Having a proper TOC means users don't have to collapse/expand anything.
A buggy experiment:
importStylesheet( 'User:Prtksxna/toc.css' ); importScript( 'User:Prtksxna/toc.js' );Tested on latest Firefox and Chrome. Refreshing a couple of times usually takes care of any visual bugs.
http://cl.ly/Z7DO http://cl.ly/Z7B4
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
It looks great! Except when I try to lay down my pointer over the sidebar as I used to do... ;-)
Krinkle <krinklemail <at> gmail.com> writes:
I'm not sure we should implement collapsible sections for desktop.
If built and instrumented, one may find that users use it a fair bit and
it may be better-than-nothing as
solution for certain use cases. But I don't think collapsible sections
would be an adequate feature for
those use cases.
Our table of contents is in desperate need of improvement. Having that be
more accessible throughout the
reading experience would be a big step forward[1] (much like the Wikipedia
iOS app). Having a proper TOC
means users don't have to collapse/expand anything.
This would allow users to have a birds eye view of the document at all
times, jump to any section at any time,
whilst still being able to scroll through the document top to bottom as
one would expect.
From a performance viewpoint (as opposed to usability) we can still do
optimisations such as not loading
images until a section is accessed (lazy-load).
What is the differences between an extension and a gadget?
Eallan
Thank you for your reply. So how to take the sensible test?
Eallan
Jon Robson <jdlrobson <at> gmail.com> writes:
I think we should explore this. I don't think this is about extra clicks... On tablets like desktop we expand sections by default but __allow___ them to be collapsible. It would be interesting to add some event logging to see how widely used that feature is on tablet.
It could thus also be useful for desktop and I wouldn't outright dismiss it without evidence to backup it's usefulness.
Like Eallan I find this feature useful on both mobile and desktop (I use mobile site as my desktop experience) for navigating around complex documents.
Eallan happy to combine brainpower and work out a sensible test to see if it is useful or not if you are.
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l <at> lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Eallan h.yilun@gmail.com wrote:
Im unsure that would be wanted on the desktop wiki. Desktop doesnt have
the
space constraints of mobile, and extra clicks should usually be
avoided if
possible.
--bawilff
This feature will not add extra clicks, because you can set unfolded as the default status, when you want to fold some content items, then you clicks.
Eallan
On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Eallan h.yilun@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all! I am thinking about a new idea about a content tree extension of web/desktop/computer Wiki. When I use mobile phone to access website of Wikipedia, I can fold and unfold a content item of the content tree. That's very convenient. However, when I use computer to access Wiki, there is no such feature, I can not fold or unfold a content item. So shall we add this feature from mobile Wiki to the web/computer Wiki? In other words, let the user able to fold and unfold any content item at any level of the content tree. For example, I search Taipei, I get 1. History, 2. Geography, 1.1 First settlements, and 1.2 Japaneses rule ect. So I would like to able to unfold 1. History, and 1.1 First settlements, or I just unfold 1. History and fold 1.1 First Settlements to see 1.2 Japanese rule which is unfolded. So I would like to fold and unfold any level content items to further the visit quality. The mobile side wiki also can improve, since it can only fold and unfold the first level content item.
Also,add a go-back button which let the user go back to the content tree from any content item of any level in the content tree.
Eallan
Okay I had a long hard think about this. I would suggest the following EventLogging experiment on the mobile website:
Question to answer: If section collapsing is provided to users in such a way that sections are open by default, do users find the ability to collapse sections a useful feature?
To run this experiment: * We will run EventLogging on a certain set of pages that we know are popular on tablet devices (we can make this configurable - maybe set to the top 5 visited articles on the previous day) * We will log an event for page views to these pages with a unique session id * We will log an event when a section is toggled closed on these pages with the same unique session id * After collecting substantial data on the target pages we will analyse that data to see what we find. What % of visits toggled close at least one section. We can then come back to this discussion with a proposal over whether we think it would be a useful feature on desktop.
Eallan is this something you would be interested in doing with guidance and support for the mobile web team?
Jon Robson <jdlrobson <at> gmail.com> writes:
Okay I had a long hard think about this. I would suggest the following EventLogging experiment on the mobile website:
Question to answer: If section collapsing is provided to users in such a way that sections are open by default, do users find the ability to collapse sections a useful feature?
To run this experiment:
- We will run EventLogging on a certain set of pages that we know are
popular on tablet devices (we can make this configurable - maybe set to the top 5 visited articles on the previous day)
- We will log an event for page views to these pages with a unique session id
- We will log an event when a section is toggled closed on these
pages with the same unique session id
- After collecting substantial data on the target pages we will
analyse that data to see what we find. What % of visits toggled close at least one section. We can then come back to this discussion with a proposal over whether we think it would be a useful feature on desktop.
Eallan is this something you would be interested in doing with guidance and support for the mobile web team?
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l <at> lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
I am thinking about whether the experiment is necessary. The experiment is not a easy job. I am wondering that whether adding the section folding feature is easier than processing the experiment? Also, adding the folding feature do no harm on the visiting words on Wiki, since all sections are unfolded in the desktop side, and we can set all sections unfolded.
Additionally, even few people prefer using folding, we still can add this feature, because this feature didn't affect the people who didn't fold sections.
Eallan
Why not add it to the core of mediawiki including the mobile version.
On Friday, 19 December 2014, 16:40, Eallan Wong h.yilun@gmail.com wrote:
Jon Robson <jdlrobson <at> gmail.com> writes:
Okay I had a long hard think about this. I would suggest the following EventLogging experiment on the mobile website:
Question to answer: If section collapsing is provided to users in such a way that sections are open by default, do users find the ability to collapse sections a useful feature?
To run this experiment:
- We will run EventLogging on a certain set of pages that we know are
popular on tablet devices (we can make this configurable - maybe set to the top 5 visited articles on the previous day)
- We will log an event for page views to these pages with a unique session id
* We will log an event when a section is toggled closed on these pages with the same unique session id
- After collecting substantial data on the target pages we will
analyse that data to see what we find. What % of visits toggled close at least one section. We can then come back to this discussion with a proposal over whether we think it would be a useful feature on desktop.
Eallan is this something you would be interested in doing with guidance and support for the mobile web team?
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l <at> lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
I am thinking about whether the experiment is necessary. The experiment is not a easy job. I am wondering that whether adding the section folding feature is easier than processing the experiment? Also, adding the folding feature do no harm on the visiting words on Wiki, since all sections are unfolded in the desktop side, and we can set all sections unfolded.
Additionally, even few people prefer using folding, we still can add this feature, because this feature didn't affect the people who didn't fold sections.
Eallan
_______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
I agree with you.
Eallan
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 16:57:44 +0000 (UTC) From: Thomas Mulhall thomasmulhall410@yahoo.com To: Wikimedia developers wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] A new extension of content tree about Wikipedia Message-ID:
< 2124428375.792848.1419008264995.JavaMail.yahoo@jws11103.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Why not add it to the core of mediawiki including the mobile version.
On Friday, 19 December 2014, 16:40, Eallan Wong <h.yilun@gmail.com>
wrote:
Jon Robson <jdlrobson <at> gmail.com> writes:
Okay I had a long hard think about this. I would suggest the following EventLogging experiment on the mobile
website:
Question to answer: If section collapsing is provided to users in such a way that sections are open by default, do users find the ability to collapse sections a useful feature?
To run this experiment:
- We will run EventLogging on a certain set of pages that we know are
popular on tablet devices (we can make this configurable - maybe set to the top 5 visited articles on the previous day)
- We will log an event for page views to these pages with a unique
session id
- We will log an event when a section is toggled closed on these
pages with the same unique session id
- After collecting substantial data on the target pages we will
analyse that data to see what we find. What % of visits toggled close at least one section. We can then come back to this discussion with a proposal over whether we think it would be a useful feature on desktop.
Eallan is this something you would be interested in doing with guidance and support for the mobile web team?
_________________
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l <at> lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
I am thinking about whether the experiment is necessary. The experiment is not a easy job. I am wondering that whether adding the section folding feature is easier than processing the experiment? Also, adding the folding feature do no harm on the visiting words on Wiki, since all sections are unfolded in the desktop side, and we can set all sections unfolded.
Additionally, even few people prefer using folding, we still can add this feature, because this feature didn't affect the people who didn't fold sections.
Eallan
On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Eallan h.yilun@gmail.com wrote:
Hi all! I am thinking about a new idea about a content tree extension of web/desktop/computer Wiki. When I use mobile phone to access website of Wikipedia, I can fold and unfold a content item of the content tree. That's very convenient. However, when I use computer to access Wiki, there is no such feature, I can not fold or unfold a content item. So shall we add this feature from mobile Wiki to the web/computer Wiki? In other words, let the user able to fold and unfold any content item at any level of the content tree. For example, I search Taipei, I get 1. History, 2. Geography, 1.1 First settlements, and 1.2 Japaneses rule ect. So I would like to able to unfold 1. History, and 1.1 First settlements, or I just unfold 1. History and fold 1.1 First Settlements to see 1.2 Japanese rule which is unfolded. So I would like to fold and unfold any level content items to further the visit quality. The mobile side wiki also can improve, since it can only fold and unfold the first level content item.
Also,add a go-back button which let the user go back to the content tree from any content item of any level in the content tree.
Eallan
wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org