Gentlemen, no matter if in Google search results, or Facebook link previews, links that specifically have the zh-tw part in them http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/ ... still end up having simplified Chinese, despite no such simplified <title> appearing in the entire page. I suspect somehow the simplified Chinese version is considered Cache Equivalent for <title> purposes ... but it is not and looks horrible to me trying to present a fully Traditional appearing link. Go ahead and test, share "http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail" via Facebook, and notice the simplified Chinese there in the title of the link created.
I guess it's because we have <link rel="canonical" href="http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmail" /> in page source, so Facebook is fetching the canonical (variant-neutral) version (and this is expected, since http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail and http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/Gmail refer to the same article), where zh is used as the interface language. However zh falls back to zh-hans, so all interface messages are in zh-hans.
-Liangent
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:49 AM, jidanni@jidanni.org wrote:
Gentlemen, no matter if in Google search results, or Facebook link previews, links that specifically have the zh-tw part in them http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/ ... still end up having simplified Chinese, despite no such simplified <title> appearing in the entire page. I suspect somehow the simplified Chinese version is considered Cache Equivalent for <title> purposes ... but it is not and looks horrible to me trying to present a fully Traditional appearing link. Go ahead and test, share "http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail" via Facebook, and notice the simplified Chinese there in the title of the link created.
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
You can ask Facebook to make a change: load the page specified by you and display it to you, and load another canonical version to store (so they can do proper link count etc.)...
-Liangent
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Liangent liangent@gmail.com wrote:
I guess it's because we have <link rel="canonical" href="http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmail" /> in page source, so Facebook is fetching the canonical (variant-neutral) version (and this is expected, since http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail and http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/Gmail refer to the same article), where zh is used as the interface language. However zh falls back to zh-hans, so all interface messages are in zh-hans.
-Liangent
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:49 AM, jidanni@jidanni.org wrote:
Gentlemen, no matter if in Google search results, or Facebook link previews, links that specifically have the zh-tw part in them http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/ ... still end up having simplified Chinese, despite no such simplified <title> appearing in the entire page. I suspect somehow the simplified Chinese version is considered Cache Equivalent for <title> purposes ... but it is not and looks horrible to me trying to present a fully Traditional appearing link. Go ahead and test, share "http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail" via Facebook, and notice the simplified Chinese there in the title of the link created.
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Out of curiosity, what is the reasoning behind having the /zh-tw and /zh-cn pages indicate that the /wiki pages are canonical? It seems a bit strange to say that they're more or less the same page when their content isn't really equivalent and is targeted at different sets of users.
Shen
On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Liangent liangent@gmail.com wrote:
You can ask Facebook to make a change: load the page specified by you and display it to you, and load another canonical version to store (so they can do proper link count etc.)...
-Liangent
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Liangent liangent@gmail.com wrote:
I guess it's because we have <link rel="canonical" href="http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmail" /> in page source, so Facebook is fetching the canonical (variant-neutral) version (and this is expected, since http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail and http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/Gmail refer to the same article), where zh is used as the interface language. However zh falls back to zh-hans, so all interface messages are in zh-hans.
-Liangent
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:49 AM, jidanni@jidanni.org wrote:
Gentlemen, no matter if in Google search results, or Facebook link previews, links that specifically have the zh-tw part in them http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/ ... still end up having simplified Chinese, despite no such simplified
<title> >> appearing in the entire page. >> I suspect somehow the simplified Chinese version is considered Cache >> Equivalent for <title> purposes ... but it is not and looks horrible to >> me trying to present a fully Traditional appearing link. >> Go ahead and test, share "http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail" via >> Facebook, and notice the simplified Chinese there in the title of the >> link created. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikitech-l mailing list >> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >> >
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"SL" == Shen Lee shenl@google.com writes:
SL> Out of curiosity, what is the reasoning behind having...
And it's making all my links look like a Communist propaganda session. Dear Wikipedia, please stop it.
SL> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Liangent liangent@gmail.com wrote:
You can ask Facebook to make a change
This is not a humor list. It is rather hard to get a word in edgewise there.
On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:46 PM, jidanni@jidanni.org wrote:
And it's making all my links look like a Communist propaganda session. Dear Wikipedia, please stop it.
Hahahahahahahaha. This just made my day. Thank you.
-Chad
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:46:10 -0700, jidanni@jidanni.org wrote:
"SL" == Shen Lee shenl@google.com writes:
SL> Out of curiosity, what is the reasoning behind having...
And it's making all my links look like a Communist propaganda session. Dear Wikipedia, please stop it.
SL> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Liangent liangent@gmail.com wrote:
You can ask Facebook to make a change
This is not a humor list. It is rather hard to get a word in edgewise there.
;) Believe it or not, Facebook actually 'does' have a place for bug reports: https://developers.facebook.com/bugs?search_view=search&search_statuses%...
And believe it or not, if you have a valid case to be fixed, and don't patronize the devs you're reporting a bug to they may actually fix bugs.
"DF" == Daniel Friesen lists@nadir-seen-fire.com writes:
DF> https://developers.facebook.com/bugs?search_view=search&search_statuses%...
"This is a tool for developers of Platform apps reporting issues developing for Platform, and not for issues or feedback which are site-wide (including issues with profiles), user specific, for third-party apps or for Facebook-provided applications.
To make feedback or suggestions for Facebook or Facebook products, please use the suggestions and feedback tool at https://www.facebook.com/help/?topic=suggestions.
To report an issue or bug with Facebook, please use the links on the 'Known Issues' page at https://www.facebook.com/KnownIssues?sk=app_4949752878.
For other issues, please check out Facebook's Help Center (https://www.facebook.com/help )."
http://developers.facebook.com/bugs/189653611110569?fb_comment_id=fbc_101505...
Muahahahah just like I figured.
See this: https://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=189077
These variants are automatic conversions so the variant-neutral version is in fact the canonical version of the page. Even though it's in a different script it is the same text.
Essentially all the variants point to the variant neutral form with canonical links. And the canonical page includes rel=alternate forms for each of the variants including a hreflang on the <link>.
In search engines like Google and perhaps any others that decide to implement this as well it allows the search engine to know what the canonical is and understand what other languages or variants a page is available in. When provided with this information the search engine can give a user using the search engine a link in their own language instead of the canonical link. In other words, if Google has separate support for say zh-tw and zh-hk and then for the same search result Google can send a user who uses zh-tw to our zh-tw variant and a user who users zh-hk to our zh-hk variant. All with the same search ranking and results for the page.
The only shame is that each lang requires a rel=alternative and we support a pile of languages. If it wouldn't require hundreds of lines inside the head I would've liked to add support for an improved persistent uselang. Then Google would be nice enough to send users browsing google.de who follow an en.wp link to a page that has a German user interface.
So the bug here is in Facebook ignoring what the user inputed and canonicalizing the url instead of either keeping the url (but using the canonical to group it into one opengraph item) or implementing support for rel=alternate's with other hreflang's and providing users who use different variants of zh with different urls.
"DF" == Daniel Friesen lists@nadir-seen-fire.com writes:
DF> So the bug here is in Facebook ignoring what the user inputed...
Ah, the perfect case to test the effectiveness of
DF> https://developers.facebook.com/bugs?search_view=search&search_statuses%...
But why let me with my paltry understanding of the issues do the honors (or 'worse')? Do post the URL of the bug I hope you will file here so we can vote for it. Do mention this thread. Do tell me the insider's way to post YouTube bugs too if there is one. Thanks.
Umm what the link actually says is this:
"This is recommended in the following scenarios: - You translate only the template of your page, such as the navigation and footer, and keep the bulk of your content in a single language. This is common on pages that feature user-generated content. - Your page targets users in multiple regions (for example, en-us, en-uk, and en-ie), but each regional version differs only in small details, such as the currency used."
Neither of these are true; the entire contents of the whole page are different (therefore the first scenario does not apply), and Simplified vs. Traditional is a non-trivial difference not at all analogous to "small details such as the currency used" (therefore the second scenario does not apply either).
How sad that the first answer here is a "Not our problem :-)!"...
2011/10/17 Daniel Friesen lists@nadir-seen-fire.com
See this: https://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=189077
These variants are automatic conversions so the variant-neutral version is in fact the canonical version of the page. Even though it's in a different script it is the same text.
Essentially all the variants point to the variant neutral form with canonical links. And the canonical page includes rel=alternate forms for each of the variants including a hreflang on the <link>.
In search engines like Google and perhaps any others that decide to implement this as well it allows the search engine to know what the canonical is and understand what other languages or variants a page is available in. When provided with this information the search engine can give a user using the search engine a link in their own language instead of the canonical link. In other words, if Google has separate support for say zh-tw and zh-hk and then for the same search result Google can send a user who uses zh-tw to our zh-tw variant and a user who users zh-hk to our zh-hk variant. All with the same search ranking and results for the page.
The only shame is that each lang requires a rel=alternative and we support a pile of languages. If it wouldn't require hundreds of lines inside the head I would've liked to add support for an improved persistent uselang. Then Google would be nice enough to send users browsing google.de who follow an en.wp link to a page that has a German user interface.
So the bug here is in Facebook ignoring what the user inputed and canonicalizing the url instead of either keeping the url (but using the canonical to group it into one opengraph item) or implementing support for rel=alternate's with other hreflang's and providing users who use different variants of zh with different urls.
-- ~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 21:30:08 -0700, Liangent liangent@gmail.com wrote:
I guess it's because we have <link rel="canonical" href="http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmail" /> in page source, so Facebook is fetching the canonical (variant-neutral) version (and this is expected, since http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail and http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/Gmail refer to the same article), where zh is used as the interface language. However zh falls back to zh-hans, so all interface messages are in zh-hans.
-Liangent
On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:49 AM, jidanni@jidanni.org wrote:
Gentlemen, no matter if in Google search results, or Facebook link previews, links that specifically have the zh-tw part in them http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/ ... still end up having simplified Chinese, despite no such simplified
<title> appearing in the entire page. I suspect somehow the simplified Chinese version is considered Cache Equivalent for <title> purposes ... but it is not and looks horrible to me trying to present a fully Traditional appearing link. Go ahead and test, share "http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/Gmail" via Facebook, and notice the simplified Chinese there in the title of the link created.
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
"MW" == M Williamson node.ue@gmail.com writes:
MW> How sad that the first answer here is a "Not our problem :-)!"...
OK so I created https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31838 but being blurry as to the details, others will have to fill them in for me there. Thanks!
wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org