Hi,
At the Greek Research and Education Network (GRNET) we look at the possibility of contributing to the development of WYSIWYG editor support in Wikipedia. We understand that considerable work has already taken place in the area, e.g.:
* http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIFTW * https://svn.wikia-code.com/wikia/trunk/extensions/wikia/RTE/ * http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing
We therefore think that it will not be productive to reinvent the wheel over here.
Our contribution can take the form of providing developers that will devote part (or all) of their time for some months in 2011. We welcome any comments and suggestions on how we could push this forward, and in particular:
* Specific tasks / components that need to be designed, developed, optimized, etc., and estimates of effort and timeframe.
Best Regards,
Panos Louridas GRNET
On 11-01-17 05:47 AM, Panos Louridas wrote:
Hi,
At the Greek Research and Education Network (GRNET) we look at the possibility of contributing to the development of WYSIWYG editor support in Wikipedia. We understand that considerable work has already taken place in the area, e.g.:
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIFTW
- https://svn.wikia-code.com/wikia/trunk/extensions/wikia/RTE/
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing
We therefore think that it will not be productive to reinvent the wheel over here.
Our contribution can take the form of providing developers that will devote part (or all) of their time for some months in 2011. We welcome any comments and suggestions on how we could push this forward, and in particular:
- Specific tasks / components that need to be designed, developed, optimized, etc., and estimates of effort and timeframe.
Best Regards,
Panos Louridas GRNET
Making Wikia's RTE something you can easily install on a normal MediaWiki install would be a good start, and convincing them to try making the effort they said they planned to make to the RTE in a way that can be shared with and benefit from yours and the community's effort. As for improvement, I'm sure you could come up with some ideas from the plethora of complaints scattered around Wikia about issues with the RTE if you can organize them together.
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]
On Jan 17, 2011, at 4:13 PM, Daniel Friesen wrote:
Making Wikia's RTE something you can easily install on a normal MediaWiki install would be a good start, and convincing them to try making the effort they said they planned to make to the RTE in a way that can be shared with and benefit from yours and the community's effort. As for improvement, I'm sure you could come up with some ideas from the plethora of complaints scattered around Wikia about issues with the RTE if you can organize them together.
Thanks, this could be one bunch of our activities (we would be interested in more than one effort, that's why I listed three in my post).
Concerning RTE in particular, When you say "them", do you have in mind a specific endpoint that I could reach?
On 11-01-17 10:51 AM, Panos Louridas wrote:
On Jan 17, 2011, at 4:13 PM, Daniel Friesen wrote:
Making Wikia's RTE something you can easily install on a normal MediaWiki install would be a good start, and convincing them to try making the effort they said they planned to make to the RTE in a way that can be shared with and benefit from yours and the community's effort. As for improvement, I'm sure you could come up with some ideas from the plethora of complaints scattered around Wikia about issues with the RTE if you can organize them together.
Thanks, this could be one bunch of our activities (we would be interested in more than one effort, that's why I listed three in my post).
Concerning RTE in particular, When you say "them", do you have in mind a specific endpoint that I could reach?
Not really, just whatever you can find on their site. All the techs (besides Artur/crucially who is the sysadmin, not a MW dev) I've had contact with in the past have left Wikia.
~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name]
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Panos Louridas louridas@grnet.gr wrote:
Hi,
At the Greek Research and Education Network (GRNET) we look at the possibility of contributing to the development of WYSIWYG editor support in Wikipedia. We understand that considerable work has already taken place in the area, e.g.:
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIFTW
- https://svn.wikia-code.com/wikia/trunk/extensions/wikia/RTE/
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing
We therefore think that it will not be productive to reinvent the wheel over here.
Our contribution can take the form of providing developers that will devote part (or all) of their time for some months in 2011. We welcome any comments and suggestions on how we could push this forward, and in particular:
- Specific tasks / components that need to be designed, developed, optimized, etc., and estimates of effort and timeframe.
Hi Panos,
a very generous offer! One I would like to take you up on, for WYSIFTW as you no doubt have guessed :-)
WYSIFTW is approaching feature completeness, as far as wiki markup parsing is concerned, and improves on usability as well. (just try the new "floating context hover boxes", in lack of a better name, that I added last night, wich come up when you hover over a template or a references, for show/hide and rendered preview, and the new optional rendering for templates as a key-value-pair table)
For support later this year, tasks would include * increase parsing performance (mostly post-parsing steps, focusing on DOM lookup and manipulation) * improve editing usability (cut/copy/paste, better specialised dialogs for images, table/row/cell properties etc.) * usability testing (I'm using up volunteers fast ;-) * creating a test suite (to make sure that changes don't accidentally break anything) * general compatibility testing (find pages that parse/unparse wrongly, and patch the code accordingly)
I like the sentence-level editing function, but once I add section-level editing to WYSIFTW, these two will start to converge. I'm curious which of these will be more suited to small fixes and adding single sentences/references etc.
As for RTE, I know little about. Apparently, it is not suitable for Wikipedia in its current form. From brief looks at CKeditor, it might be quite some work to make it behave nicely around parsed wikitext, as used on Wikipedia.
Cheers, Magnus
A very generous offer indeed!
My own SLE and Magnus' WYSIFTW are indeed the most active projects, so that would be a good bet. Actually, for me the timing is just right, as I'll be working on a paper about this editor for a while, so it'd be cool to have someone(s) continue the project. If one of your researchers has a brilliant idea on how to do this right, that would obviously be really valuable too.
A lot of things Magnus mentioned apply to my project too: * Improving detection algorithms, i.e. better sentence-level editing (perhaps using an external language recognition library), better detection of other elements. Keep in mind that the editor excludes anything it doesn't 'understand', so this is a nice fallback, you don't have to write a complex parser that detects a lot of stuff at once. * Cross-browser/platform/device compatibility (think mobile, touchscreens, etc.) * Usability testing (the more the merrier!) * Verifying detection coverage (Which % of the wikitext is editable) and quality (Wikitext -> Adding markers -> MediaWiki parser -> Removing markings -> Wikitext??) Checking this on a large number of pages. * Test suites (again, the more the merrier, but only for parts of the code and interface that are considered stable!) * Lots of implementation details: embedding the (current) editor toolbar in the textboxes, making sure (a fair percentage of) gadgets still work with this, and handling unusual cases like edit conflicts, etc.
Perhaps it'd be good to have a (video or IRC?) conversation with you, your developers, people from the Foundation, and people from the specific projects you want to contribute to. Again, really awesome that you guys want to work on this! :-)
Best regards, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 9:55, Magnus Manske wrote:
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Panos Louridas louridas@grnet.gr wrote:
Hi,
At the Greek Research and Education Network (GRNET) we look at the possibility of contributing to the development of WYSIWYG editor support in Wikipedia. We understand that considerable work has already taken place in the area, e.g.:
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIFTW
- https://svn.wikia-code.com/wikia/trunk/extensions/wikia/RTE/
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing
We therefore think that it will not be productive to reinvent the wheel over here.
Our contribution can take the form of providing developers that will devote part (or all) of their time for some months in 2011. We welcome any comments and suggestions on how we could push this forward, and in particular:
- Specific tasks / components that need to be designed, developed, optimized, etc., and estimates of effort and timeframe.
Hi Panos,
a very generous offer! One I would like to take you up on, for WYSIFTW as you no doubt have guessed :-)
WYSIFTW is approaching feature completeness, as far as wiki markup parsing is concerned, and improves on usability as well. (just try the new "floating context hover boxes", in lack of a better name, that I added last night, wich come up when you hover over a template or a references, for show/hide and rendered preview, and the new optional rendering for templates as a key-value-pair table)
For support later this year, tasks would include
- increase parsing performance (mostly post-parsing steps, focusing on
DOM lookup and manipulation)
- improve editing usability (cut/copy/paste, better specialised
dialogs for images, table/row/cell properties etc.)
- usability testing (I'm using up volunteers fast ;-)
- creating a test suite (to make sure that changes don't accidentally
break anything)
- general compatibility testing (find pages that parse/unparse
wrongly, and patch the code accordingly)
I like the sentence-level editing function, but once I add section-level editing to WYSIFTW, these two will start to converge. I'm curious which of these will be more suited to small fixes and adding single sentences/references etc.
As for RTE, I know little about. Apparently, it is not suitable for Wikipedia in its current form. From brief looks at CKeditor, it might be quite some work to make it behave nicely around parsed wikitext, as used on Wikipedia.
Cheers, Magnus
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Thanks to both Jean Paul and Magnus for taking up the offer!
Based on your input I will look into our developer tool for people with expertise in the following:
* Advanced JS, preferably with experience in optimisation issues etc.
* UI design, usability testing, etc.
* Text processing (of sorts) for the needs of SLE
(if you believe I am missing something, say so)
I expect to have the people in place in February, I will let you know. I will be following the list.
Jean Paul indicated that we might talk in more detail. I do not follow IRC because of my tight schedule; I do use Skype, however (ID: louridas). Please Jean Paul, Magnus, and others, let me know if that suits you. As I am located in Athens, my waking hours are around East European Time.
Cheers,
Panos.
On Jan 19, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote:
A very generous offer indeed!
My own SLE and Magnus' WYSIFTW are indeed the most active projects, so that would be a good bet. Actually, for me the timing is just right, as I'll be working on a paper about this editor for a while, so it'd be cool to have someone(s) continue the project. If one of your researchers has a brilliant idea on how to do this right, that would obviously be really valuable too.
A lot of things Magnus mentioned apply to my project too:
- Improving detection algorithms, i.e. better sentence-level editing (perhaps using an external language recognition library), better detection of other elements. Keep in mind that the editor excludes anything it doesn't 'understand', so this is a nice fallback, you don't have to write a complex parser that detects a lot of stuff at once.
- Cross-browser/platform/device compatibility (think mobile, touchscreens, etc.)
- Usability testing (the more the merrier!)
- Verifying detection coverage (Which % of the wikitext is editable) and quality (Wikitext -> Adding markers -> MediaWiki parser -> Removing markings -> Wikitext??) Checking this on a large number of pages.
- Test suites (again, the more the merrier, but only for parts of the code and interface that are considered stable!)
- Lots of implementation details: embedding the (current) editor toolbar in the textboxes, making sure (a fair percentage of) gadgets still work with this, and handling unusual cases like edit conflicts, etc.
Perhaps it'd be good to have a (video or IRC?) conversation with you, your developers, people from the Foundation, and people from the specific projects you want to contribute to. Again, really awesome that you guys want to work on this! :-)
Best regards, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 9:55, Magnus Manske wrote:
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Panos Louridas louridas@grnet.gr wrote:
Hi,
At the Greek Research and Education Network (GRNET) we look at the possibility of contributing to the development of WYSIWYG editor support in Wikipedia. We understand that considerable work has already taken place in the area, e.g.:
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIFTW
- https://svn.wikia-code.com/wikia/trunk/extensions/wikia/RTE/
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing
We therefore think that it will not be productive to reinvent the wheel over here.
Our contribution can take the form of providing developers that will devote part (or all) of their time for some months in 2011. We welcome any comments and suggestions on how we could push this forward, and in particular:
- Specific tasks / components that need to be designed, developed, optimized, etc., and estimates of effort and timeframe.
Hi Panos,
a very generous offer! One I would like to take you up on, for WYSIFTW as you no doubt have guessed :-)
WYSIFTW is approaching feature completeness, as far as wiki markup parsing is concerned, and improves on usability as well. (just try the new "floating context hover boxes", in lack of a better name, that I added last night, wich come up when you hover over a template or a references, for show/hide and rendered preview, and the new optional rendering for templates as a key-value-pair table)
For support later this year, tasks would include
- increase parsing performance (mostly post-parsing steps, focusing on
DOM lookup and manipulation)
- improve editing usability (cut/copy/paste, better specialised
dialogs for images, table/row/cell properties etc.)
- usability testing (I'm using up volunteers fast ;-)
- creating a test suite (to make sure that changes don't accidentally
break anything)
- general compatibility testing (find pages that parse/unparse
wrongly, and patch the code accordingly)
I like the sentence-level editing function, but once I add section-level editing to WYSIFTW, these two will start to converge. I'm curious which of these will be more suited to small fixes and adding single sentences/references etc.
As for RTE, I know little about. Apparently, it is not suitable for Wikipedia in its current form. From brief looks at CKeditor, it might be quite some work to make it behave nicely around parsed wikitext, as used on Wikipedia.
Cheers, Magnus
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Skype sounds great! Also, I heard you work with Ariel, which is great because that way you have a more local person to contact with MediaWiki questions. Perhaps we can get off-list with those interested to schedule an introductory meeting? (You, me, Magnus, Ariel, others?) I am located in the Netherlands, so our hours will be similar.
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 19:47, Panos Louridas wrote:
Thanks to both Jean Paul and Magnus for taking up the offer!
Based on your input I will look into our developer tool for people with expertise in the following:
Advanced JS, preferably with experience in optimisation issues etc.
UI design, usability testing, etc.
Text processing (of sorts) for the needs of SLE
(if you believe I am missing something, say so)
I expect to have the people in place in February, I will let you know. I will be following the list.
Jean Paul indicated that we might talk in more detail. I do not follow IRC because of my tight schedule; I do use Skype, however (ID: louridas). Please Jean Paul, Magnus, and others, let me know if that suits you. As I am located in Athens, my waking hours are around East European Time.
Cheers,
Panos.
On Jan 19, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote:
A very generous offer indeed!
My own SLE and Magnus' WYSIFTW are indeed the most active projects, so that would be a good bet. Actually, for me the timing is just right, as I'll be working on a paper about this editor for a while, so it'd be cool to have someone(s) continue the project. If one of your researchers has a brilliant idea on how to do this right, that would obviously be really valuable too.
A lot of things Magnus mentioned apply to my project too:
- Improving detection algorithms, i.e. better sentence-level editing (perhaps using an external language recognition library), better detection of other elements. Keep in mind that the editor excludes anything it doesn't 'understand', so this is a nice fallback, you don't have to write a complex parser that detects a lot of stuff at once.
- Cross-browser/platform/device compatibility (think mobile, touchscreens, etc.)
- Usability testing (the more the merrier!)
- Verifying detection coverage (Which % of the wikitext is editable) and quality (Wikitext -> Adding markers -> MediaWiki parser -> Removing markings -> Wikitext??) Checking this on a large number of pages.
- Test suites (again, the more the merrier, but only for parts of the code and interface that are considered stable!)
- Lots of implementation details: embedding the (current) editor toolbar in the textboxes, making sure (a fair percentage of) gadgets still work with this, and handling unusual cases like edit conflicts, etc.
Perhaps it'd be good to have a (video or IRC?) conversation with you, your developers, people from the Foundation, and people from the specific projects you want to contribute to. Again, really awesome that you guys want to work on this! :-)
Best regards, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 9:55, Magnus Manske wrote:
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Panos Louridas louridas@grnet.gr wrote:
Hi,
At the Greek Research and Education Network (GRNET) we look at the possibility of contributing to the development of WYSIWYG editor support in Wikipedia. We understand that considerable work has already taken place in the area, e.g.:
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIFTW
- https://svn.wikia-code.com/wikia/trunk/extensions/wikia/RTE/
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing
We therefore think that it will not be productive to reinvent the wheel over here.
Our contribution can take the form of providing developers that will devote part (or all) of their time for some months in 2011. We welcome any comments and suggestions on how we could push this forward, and in particular:
- Specific tasks / components that need to be designed, developed, optimized, etc., and estimates of effort and timeframe.
Hi Panos,
a very generous offer! One I would like to take you up on, for WYSIFTW as you no doubt have guessed :-)
WYSIFTW is approaching feature completeness, as far as wiki markup parsing is concerned, and improves on usability as well. (just try the new "floating context hover boxes", in lack of a better name, that I added last night, wich come up when you hover over a template or a references, for show/hide and rendered preview, and the new optional rendering for templates as a key-value-pair table)
For support later this year, tasks would include
- increase parsing performance (mostly post-parsing steps, focusing on
DOM lookup and manipulation)
- improve editing usability (cut/copy/paste, better specialised
dialogs for images, table/row/cell properties etc.)
- usability testing (I'm using up volunteers fast ;-)
- creating a test suite (to make sure that changes don't accidentally
break anything)
- general compatibility testing (find pages that parse/unparse
wrongly, and patch the code accordingly)
I like the sentence-level editing function, but once I add section-level editing to WYSIFTW, these two will start to converge. I'm curious which of these will be more suited to small fixes and adding single sentences/references etc.
As for RTE, I know little about. Apparently, it is not suitable for Wikipedia in its current form. From brief looks at CKeditor, it might be quite some work to make it behave nicely around parsed wikitext, as used on Wikipedia.
Cheers, Magnus
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
I have added Panos to Skype; yes, we should probably exchange Skype handles off-list.
I am in Cambridge (London time), so that should work.
Cheers, Magnus
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:34 PM, Jan Paul Posma jp.posma@gmail.com wrote:
Skype sounds great! Also, I heard you work with Ariel, which is great because that way you have a more local person to contact with MediaWiki questions. Perhaps we can get off-list with those interested to schedule an introductory meeting? (You, me, Magnus, Ariel, others?) I am located in the Netherlands, so our hours will be similar.
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 19:47, Panos Louridas wrote:
Thanks to both Jean Paul and Magnus for taking up the offer!
Based on your input I will look into our developer tool for people with expertise in the following:
Advanced JS, preferably with experience in optimisation issues etc.
UI design, usability testing, etc.
Text processing (of sorts) for the needs of SLE
(if you believe I am missing something, say so)
I expect to have the people in place in February, I will let you know. I will be following the list.
Jean Paul indicated that we might talk in more detail. I do not follow IRC because of my tight schedule; I do use Skype, however (ID: louridas). Please Jean Paul, Magnus, and others, let me know if that suits you. As I am located in Athens, my waking hours are around East European Time.
Cheers,
Panos.
On Jan 19, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote:
A very generous offer indeed!
My own SLE and Magnus' WYSIFTW are indeed the most active projects, so that would be a good bet. Actually, for me the timing is just right, as I'll be working on a paper about this editor for a while, so it'd be cool to have someone(s) continue the project. If one of your researchers has a brilliant idea on how to do this right, that would obviously be really valuable too.
A lot of things Magnus mentioned apply to my project too:
- Improving detection algorithms, i.e. better sentence-level editing (perhaps using an external language recognition library), better detection of other elements. Keep in mind that the editor excludes anything it doesn't 'understand', so this is a nice fallback, you don't have to write a complex parser that detects a lot of stuff at once.
- Cross-browser/platform/device compatibility (think mobile, touchscreens, etc.)
- Usability testing (the more the merrier!)
- Verifying detection coverage (Which % of the wikitext is editable) and quality (Wikitext -> Adding markers -> MediaWiki parser -> Removing markings -> Wikitext??) Checking this on a large number of pages.
- Test suites (again, the more the merrier, but only for parts of the code and interface that are considered stable!)
- Lots of implementation details: embedding the (current) editor toolbar in the textboxes, making sure (a fair percentage of) gadgets still work with this, and handling unusual cases like edit conflicts, etc.
Perhaps it'd be good to have a (video or IRC?) conversation with you, your developers, people from the Foundation, and people from the specific projects you want to contribute to. Again, really awesome that you guys want to work on this! :-)
Best regards, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 9:55, Magnus Manske wrote:
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Panos Louridas louridas@grnet.gr wrote:
Hi,
At the Greek Research and Education Network (GRNET) we look at the possibility of contributing to the development of WYSIWYG editor support in Wikipedia. We understand that considerable work has already taken place in the area, e.g.:
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIFTW
- https://svn.wikia-code.com/wikia/trunk/extensions/wikia/RTE/
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing
We therefore think that it will not be productive to reinvent the wheel over here.
Our contribution can take the form of providing developers that will devote part (or all) of their time for some months in 2011. We welcome any comments and suggestions on how we could push this forward, and in particular:
- Specific tasks / components that need to be designed, developed, optimized, etc., and estimates of effort and timeframe.
Hi Panos,
a very generous offer! One I would like to take you up on, for WYSIFTW as you no doubt have guessed :-)
WYSIFTW is approaching feature completeness, as far as wiki markup parsing is concerned, and improves on usability as well. (just try the new "floating context hover boxes", in lack of a better name, that I added last night, wich come up when you hover over a template or a references, for show/hide and rendered preview, and the new optional rendering for templates as a key-value-pair table)
For support later this year, tasks would include
- increase parsing performance (mostly post-parsing steps, focusing on
DOM lookup and manipulation)
- improve editing usability (cut/copy/paste, better specialised
dialogs for images, table/row/cell properties etc.)
- usability testing (I'm using up volunteers fast ;-)
- creating a test suite (to make sure that changes don't accidentally
break anything)
- general compatibility testing (find pages that parse/unparse
wrongly, and patch the code accordingly)
I like the sentence-level editing function, but once I add section-level editing to WYSIFTW, these two will start to converge. I'm curious which of these will be more suited to small fixes and adding single sentences/references etc.
As for RTE, I know little about. Apparently, it is not suitable for Wikipedia in its current form. From brief looks at CKeditor, it might be quite some work to make it behave nicely around parsed wikitext, as used on Wikipedia.
Cheers, Magnus
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
So a few minutes ago we've had a conversation about this. Panos will set up a public collaboration space within GRNET. A few developers will be (part-time) working on this from February for a (so far) unspecified amount of time. The consensus was that it would be good to start off with some basic usability testing, to see how well the different tools work for novice users. It'll be very basic testing, with about 10 subjects from within GRNET (so with a bit of technical bias) but only those who haven't edited before.
Both Magnus' and my tools will be implemented on a clone of the Greek Wikipedia and we will set up a fabricated article that works well with both of our editors. It's only about the usability, not about technical aspects for now. Both editing tools will have to be adapted and localised, perhaps this can even be done by GRNET developers. We'll use my usability script that I used before with the Sentence-Level Editing usability research.
Once this usability testing has been done, we'll decide how to distribute the efforts, and what will be done. We'll work closely with the GRNET developers to assist them in working on these projects. Once we'll have more information it will be posted to this list.
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 23:34, Magnus Manske wrote:
I have added Panos to Skype; yes, we should probably exchange Skype handles off-list.
I am in Cambridge (London time), so that should work.
Cheers, Magnus
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:34 PM, Jan Paul Posma jp.posma@gmail.com wrote:
Skype sounds great! Also, I heard you work with Ariel, which is great because that way you have a more local person to contact with MediaWiki questions. Perhaps we can get off-list with those interested to schedule an introductory meeting? (You, me, Magnus, Ariel, others?) I am located in the Netherlands, so our hours will be similar.
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 19:47, Panos Louridas wrote:
Thanks to both Jean Paul and Magnus for taking up the offer!
Based on your input I will look into our developer tool for people with expertise in the following:
Advanced JS, preferably with experience in optimisation issues etc.
UI design, usability testing, etc.
Text processing (of sorts) for the needs of SLE
(if you believe I am missing something, say so)
I expect to have the people in place in February, I will let you know. I will be following the list.
Jean Paul indicated that we might talk in more detail. I do not follow IRC because of my tight schedule; I do use Skype, however (ID: louridas). Please Jean Paul, Magnus, and others, let me know if that suits you. As I am located in Athens, my waking hours are around East European Time.
Cheers,
Panos.
On Jan 19, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote:
A very generous offer indeed!
My own SLE and Magnus' WYSIFTW are indeed the most active projects, so that would be a good bet. Actually, for me the timing is just right, as I'll be working on a paper about this editor for a while, so it'd be cool to have someone(s) continue the project. If one of your researchers has a brilliant idea on how to do this right, that would obviously be really valuable too.
A lot of things Magnus mentioned apply to my project too:
- Improving detection algorithms, i.e. better sentence-level editing (perhaps using an external language recognition library), better detection of other elements. Keep in mind that the editor excludes anything it doesn't 'understand', so this is a nice fallback, you don't have to write a complex parser that detects a lot of stuff at once.
- Cross-browser/platform/device compatibility (think mobile, touchscreens, etc.)
- Usability testing (the more the merrier!)
- Verifying detection coverage (Which % of the wikitext is editable) and quality (Wikitext -> Adding markers -> MediaWiki parser -> Removing markings -> Wikitext??) Checking this on a large number of pages.
- Test suites (again, the more the merrier, but only for parts of the code and interface that are considered stable!)
- Lots of implementation details: embedding the (current) editor toolbar in the textboxes, making sure (a fair percentage of) gadgets still work with this, and handling unusual cases like edit conflicts, etc.
Perhaps it'd be good to have a (video or IRC?) conversation with you, your developers, people from the Foundation, and people from the specific projects you want to contribute to. Again, really awesome that you guys want to work on this! :-)
Best regards, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 9:55, Magnus Manske wrote:
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Panos Louridas louridas@grnet.gr wrote:
Hi,
At the Greek Research and Education Network (GRNET) we look at the possibility of contributing to the development of WYSIWYG editor support in Wikipedia. We understand that considerable work has already taken place in the area, e.g.:
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIFTW
- https://svn.wikia-code.com/wikia/trunk/extensions/wikia/RTE/
- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing
We therefore think that it will not be productive to reinvent the wheel over here.
Our contribution can take the form of providing developers that will devote part (or all) of their time for some months in 2011. We welcome any comments and suggestions on how we could push this forward, and in particular:
- Specific tasks / components that need to be designed, developed, optimized, etc., and estimates of effort and timeframe.
Hi Panos,
a very generous offer! One I would like to take you up on, for WYSIFTW as you no doubt have guessed :-)
WYSIFTW is approaching feature completeness, as far as wiki markup parsing is concerned, and improves on usability as well. (just try the new "floating context hover boxes", in lack of a better name, that I added last night, wich come up when you hover over a template or a references, for show/hide and rendered preview, and the new optional rendering for templates as a key-value-pair table)
For support later this year, tasks would include
- increase parsing performance (mostly post-parsing steps, focusing on
DOM lookup and manipulation)
- improve editing usability (cut/copy/paste, better specialised
dialogs for images, table/row/cell properties etc.)
- usability testing (I'm using up volunteers fast ;-)
- creating a test suite (to make sure that changes don't accidentally
break anything)
- general compatibility testing (find pages that parse/unparse
wrongly, and patch the code accordingly)
I like the sentence-level editing function, but once I add section-level editing to WYSIFTW, these two will start to converge. I'm curious which of these will be more suited to small fixes and adding single sentences/references etc.
As for RTE, I know little about. Apparently, it is not suitable for Wikipedia in its current form. From brief looks at CKeditor, it might be quite some work to make it behave nicely around parsed wikitext, as used on Wikipedia.
Cheers, Magnus
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 6:07 AM, Jan Paul Posma jp.posma@gmail.com wrote:
So a few minutes ago we've had a conversation about this. Panos will set up a public collaboration space within GRNET. A few developers will be (part-time) working on this from February for a (so far) unspecified amount of time. The consensus was that it would be good to start off with some basic usability testing, to see how well the different tools work for novice users. It'll be very basic testing, with about 10 subjects from within GRNET (so with a bit of technical bias) but only those who haven't edited before.
Both Magnus' and my tools will be implemented on a clone of the Greek Wikipedia and we will set up a fabricated article that works well with both of our editors. It's only about the usability, not about technical aspects for now. Both editing tools will have to be adapted and localised, perhaps this can even be done by GRNET developers. We'll use my usability script that I used before with the Sentence-Level Editing usability research.
Once this usability testing has been done, we'll decide how to distribute the efforts, and what will be done. We'll work closely with the GRNET developers to assist them in working on these projects. Once we'll have more information it will be posted to this list.
I know I tend to be down on markup-based editors lately but I'm **super-excited** that there's a bunch of folks actively working on trying these things out! Participatory open source at its finest. :) Definitely interested to see the usability testing...
-- brion
Picking up on the usability testing,
Since we do not have a dedicated usability lab (but we do have people that have carried out usability studies), we will have to create something ourselves.
I understand that the basic requirements are the ability to capture both the screen and the user; and to capture them in a synchronized way.
From some research that we did, we came up with the following setups:
(1) Telestream ScreenFlow (http://www.telestream.net/screen-flow/overview.htm)
(2) Mac OS 10.6 podcast capture (but this requires a podcast server, i.e., Mac OS 10.6 server, and I am not sure it's worth it).
(3) Matterhorn capture (http://www.opencastproject.org/matterhorn_capture)
We are leaning towards solution (1). We welcome any comments, any alternative solutions that we may explore, or any arguments for (2) and (3).
Cheers,
Panos.
On Jan 21, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote:
So a few minutes ago we've had a conversation about this. Panos will set up a public collaboration space within GRNET. A few developers will be (part-time) working on this from February for a (so far) unspecified amount of time. The consensus was that it would be good to start off with some basic usability testing, to see how well the different tools work for novice users. It'll be very basic testing, with about 10 subjects from within GRNET (so with a bit of technical bias) but only those who haven't edited before.
Both Magnus' and my tools will be implemented on a clone of the Greek Wikipedia and we will set up a fabricated article that works well with both of our editors. It's only about the usability, not about technical aspects for now. Both editing tools will have to be adapted and localised, perhaps this can even be done by GRNET developers. We'll use my usability script that I used before with the Sentence-Level Editing usability research.
Once this usability testing has been done, we'll decide how to distribute the efforts, and what will be done. We'll work closely with the GRNET developers to assist them in working on these projects. Once we'll have more information it will be posted to this list.
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 23:34, Magnus Manske wrote:
I have added Panos to Skype; yes, we should probably exchange Skype handles off-list.
I am in Cambridge (London time), so that should work.
Cheers, Magnus
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:34 PM, Jan Paul Posma jp.posma@gmail.com wrote:
Skype sounds great! Also, I heard you work with Ariel, which is great because that way you have a more local person to contact with MediaWiki questions. Perhaps we can get off-list with those interested to schedule an introductory meeting? (You, me, Magnus, Ariel, others?) I am located in the Netherlands, so our hours will be similar.
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 19:47, Panos Louridas wrote:
Thanks to both Jean Paul and Magnus for taking up the offer!
Based on your input I will look into our developer tool for people with expertise in the following:
Advanced JS, preferably with experience in optimisation issues etc.
UI design, usability testing, etc.
Text processing (of sorts) for the needs of SLE
(if you believe I am missing something, say so)
I expect to have the people in place in February, I will let you know. I will be following the list.
Jean Paul indicated that we might talk in more detail. I do not follow IRC because of my tight schedule; I do use Skype, however (ID: louridas). Please Jean Paul, Magnus, and others, let me know if that suits you. As I am located in Athens, my waking hours are around East European Time.
Cheers,
Panos.
On Jan 19, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote:
A very generous offer indeed!
My own SLE and Magnus' WYSIFTW are indeed the most active projects, so that would be a good bet. Actually, for me the timing is just right, as I'll be working on a paper about this editor for a while, so it'd be cool to have someone(s) continue the project. If one of your researchers has a brilliant idea on how to do this right, that would obviously be really valuable too.
A lot of things Magnus mentioned apply to my project too:
- Improving detection algorithms, i.e. better sentence-level editing (perhaps using an external language recognition library), better detection of other elements. Keep in mind that the editor excludes anything it doesn't 'understand', so this is a nice fallback, you don't have to write a complex parser that detects a lot of stuff at once.
- Cross-browser/platform/device compatibility (think mobile, touchscreens, etc.)
- Usability testing (the more the merrier!)
- Verifying detection coverage (Which % of the wikitext is editable) and quality (Wikitext -> Adding markers -> MediaWiki parser -> Removing markings -> Wikitext??) Checking this on a large number of pages.
- Test suites (again, the more the merrier, but only for parts of the code and interface that are considered stable!)
- Lots of implementation details: embedding the (current) editor toolbar in the textboxes, making sure (a fair percentage of) gadgets still work with this, and handling unusual cases like edit conflicts, etc.
Perhaps it'd be good to have a (video or IRC?) conversation with you, your developers, people from the Foundation, and people from the specific projects you want to contribute to. Again, really awesome that you guys want to work on this! :-)
Best regards, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 9:55, Magnus Manske wrote:
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Panos Louridas louridas@grnet.gr wrote: > Hi, > > At the Greek Research and Education Network (GRNET) we look at the possibility of contributing to the development of WYSIWYG editor support in Wikipedia. We understand that considerable work has already taken place in the area, e.g.: > > * http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIFTW > * https://svn.wikia-code.com/wikia/trunk/extensions/wikia/RTE/ > * http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing > > We therefore think that it will not be productive to reinvent the wheel over here. > > Our contribution can take the form of providing developers that will devote part (or all) of their time for some months in 2011. We welcome any comments and suggestions on how we could push this forward, and in particular: > > * Specific tasks / components that need to be designed, developed, optimized, etc., and estimates of effort and timeframe.
Hi Panos,
a very generous offer! One I would like to take you up on, for WYSIFTW as you no doubt have guessed :-)
WYSIFTW is approaching feature completeness, as far as wiki markup parsing is concerned, and improves on usability as well. (just try the new "floating context hover boxes", in lack of a better name, that I added last night, wich come up when you hover over a template or a references, for show/hide and rendered preview, and the new optional rendering for templates as a key-value-pair table)
For support later this year, tasks would include
- increase parsing performance (mostly post-parsing steps, focusing on
DOM lookup and manipulation)
- improve editing usability (cut/copy/paste, better specialised
dialogs for images, table/row/cell properties etc.)
- usability testing (I'm using up volunteers fast ;-)
- creating a test suite (to make sure that changes don't accidentally
break anything)
- general compatibility testing (find pages that parse/unparse
wrongly, and patch the code accordingly)
I like the sentence-level editing function, but once I add section-level editing to WYSIFTW, these two will start to converge. I'm curious which of these will be more suited to small fixes and adding single sentences/references etc.
As for RTE, I know little about. Apparently, it is not suitable for Wikipedia in its current form. From brief looks at CKeditor, it might be quite some work to make it behave nicely around parsed wikitext, as used on Wikipedia.
Cheers, Magnus
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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I used the open source Camstudio, but (1) seems to be better as you can simultaneously capture the camera image. One question I didn't think of during the meeting: are you planning on releasing the videos online (e.g. on Wikimedia Commons)?
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 22-Jan-2011, at 14:29, Panos Louridas wrote:
Picking up on the usability testing,
Since we do not have a dedicated usability lab (but we do have people that have carried out usability studies), we will have to create something ourselves.
I understand that the basic requirements are the ability to capture both the screen and the user; and to capture them in a synchronized way.
From some research that we did, we came up with the following setups:
(1) Telestream ScreenFlow (http://www.telestream.net/screen-flow/overview.htm)
(2) Mac OS 10.6 podcast capture (but this requires a podcast server, i.e., Mac OS 10.6 server, and I am not sure it's worth it).
(3) Matterhorn capture (http://www.opencastproject.org/matterhorn_capture)
We are leaning towards solution (1). We welcome any comments, any alternative solutions that we may explore, or any arguments for (2) and (3).
Cheers,
Panos.
On Jan 21, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote:
So a few minutes ago we've had a conversation about this. Panos will set up a public collaboration space within GRNET. A few developers will be (part-time) working on this from February for a (so far) unspecified amount of time. The consensus was that it would be good to start off with some basic usability testing, to see how well the different tools work for novice users. It'll be very basic testing, with about 10 subjects from within GRNET (so with a bit of technical bias) but only those who haven't edited before.
Both Magnus' and my tools will be implemented on a clone of the Greek Wikipedia and we will set up a fabricated article that works well with both of our editors. It's only about the usability, not about technical aspects for now. Both editing tools will have to be adapted and localised, perhaps this can even be done by GRNET developers. We'll use my usability script that I used before with the Sentence-Level Editing usability research.
Once this usability testing has been done, we'll decide how to distribute the efforts, and what will be done. We'll work closely with the GRNET developers to assist them in working on these projects. Once we'll have more information it will be posted to this list.
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 23:34, Magnus Manske wrote:
I have added Panos to Skype; yes, we should probably exchange Skype handles off-list.
I am in Cambridge (London time), so that should work.
Cheers, Magnus
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:34 PM, Jan Paul Posma jp.posma@gmail.com wrote:
Skype sounds great! Also, I heard you work with Ariel, which is great because that way you have a more local person to contact with MediaWiki questions. Perhaps we can get off-list with those interested to schedule an introductory meeting? (You, me, Magnus, Ariel, others?) I am located in the Netherlands, so our hours will be similar.
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 19:47, Panos Louridas wrote:
Thanks to both Jean Paul and Magnus for taking up the offer!
Based on your input I will look into our developer tool for people with expertise in the following:
Advanced JS, preferably with experience in optimisation issues etc.
UI design, usability testing, etc.
Text processing (of sorts) for the needs of SLE
(if you believe I am missing something, say so)
I expect to have the people in place in February, I will let you know. I will be following the list.
Jean Paul indicated that we might talk in more detail. I do not follow IRC because of my tight schedule; I do use Skype, however (ID: louridas). Please Jean Paul, Magnus, and others, let me know if that suits you. As I am located in Athens, my waking hours are around East European Time.
Cheers,
Panos.
On Jan 19, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote:
A very generous offer indeed!
My own SLE and Magnus' WYSIFTW are indeed the most active projects, so that would be a good bet. Actually, for me the timing is just right, as I'll be working on a paper about this editor for a while, so it'd be cool to have someone(s) continue the project. If one of your researchers has a brilliant idea on how to do this right, that would obviously be really valuable too.
A lot of things Magnus mentioned apply to my project too:
- Improving detection algorithms, i.e. better sentence-level editing (perhaps using an external language recognition library), better detection of other elements. Keep in mind that the editor excludes anything it doesn't 'understand', so this is a nice fallback, you don't have to write a complex parser that detects a lot of stuff at once.
- Cross-browser/platform/device compatibility (think mobile, touchscreens, etc.)
- Usability testing (the more the merrier!)
- Verifying detection coverage (Which % of the wikitext is editable) and quality (Wikitext -> Adding markers -> MediaWiki parser -> Removing markings -> Wikitext??) Checking this on a large number of pages.
- Test suites (again, the more the merrier, but only for parts of the code and interface that are considered stable!)
- Lots of implementation details: embedding the (current) editor toolbar in the textboxes, making sure (a fair percentage of) gadgets still work with this, and handling unusual cases like edit conflicts, etc.
Perhaps it'd be good to have a (video or IRC?) conversation with you, your developers, people from the Foundation, and people from the specific projects you want to contribute to. Again, really awesome that you guys want to work on this! :-)
Best regards, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 9:55, Magnus Manske wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Panos Louridas louridas@grnet.gr wrote: >> Hi, >> >> At the Greek Research and Education Network (GRNET) we look at the possibility of contributing to the development of WYSIWYG editor support in Wikipedia. We understand that considerable work has already taken place in the area, e.g.: >> >> * http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIFTW >> * https://svn.wikia-code.com/wikia/trunk/extensions/wikia/RTE/ >> * http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing >> >> We therefore think that it will not be productive to reinvent the wheel over here. >> >> Our contribution can take the form of providing developers that will devote part (or all) of their time for some months in 2011. We welcome any comments and suggestions on how we could push this forward, and in particular: >> >> * Specific tasks / components that need to be designed, developed, optimized, etc., and estimates of effort and timeframe. > > Hi Panos, > > a very generous offer! One I would like to take you up on, for WYSIFTW > as you no doubt have guessed :-) > > WYSIFTW is approaching feature completeness, as far as wiki markup > parsing is concerned, and improves on usability as well. (just try the > new "floating context hover boxes", in lack of a better name, that I > added last night, wich come up when you hover over a template or a > references, for show/hide and rendered preview, and the new optional > rendering for templates as a key-value-pair table) > > For support later this year, tasks would include > * increase parsing performance (mostly post-parsing steps, focusing on > DOM lookup and manipulation) > * improve editing usability (cut/copy/paste, better specialised > dialogs for images, table/row/cell properties etc.) > * usability testing (I'm using up volunteers fast ;-) > * creating a test suite (to make sure that changes don't accidentally > break anything) > * general compatibility testing (find pages that parse/unparse > wrongly, and patch the code accordingly) > > I like the sentence-level editing function, but once I add > section-level editing to WYSIFTW, these two will start to converge. > I'm curious which of these will be more suited to small fixes and > adding single sentences/references etc. > > As for RTE, I know little about. Apparently, it is not suitable for > Wikipedia in its current form. From brief looks at CKeditor, it might > be quite some work to make it behave nicely around parsed wikitext, as > used on Wikipedia. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > _______________________________________________ > Wikitech-l mailing list > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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We could, if the people captured agree. Two caveats:
(1) Much of the audio could be all Greek to most.
(2) Does releasing to Wikimedia Commons requiring transcoding to an open format?
On Jan 22, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote:
I used the open source Camstudio, but (1) seems to be better as you can simultaneously capture the camera image. One question I didn't think of during the meeting: are you planning on releasing the videos online (e.g. on Wikimedia Commons)?
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 22-Jan-2011, at 14:29, Panos Louridas wrote:
Picking up on the usability testing,
Since we do not have a dedicated usability lab (but we do have people that have carried out usability studies), we will have to create something ourselves.
I understand that the basic requirements are the ability to capture both the screen and the user; and to capture them in a synchronized way.
From some research that we did, we came up with the following setups:
(1) Telestream ScreenFlow (http://www.telestream.net/screen-flow/overview.htm)
(2) Mac OS 10.6 podcast capture (but this requires a podcast server, i.e., Mac OS 10.6 server, and I am not sure it's worth it).
(3) Matterhorn capture (http://www.opencastproject.org/matterhorn_capture)
We are leaning towards solution (1). We welcome any comments, any alternative solutions that we may explore, or any arguments for (2) and (3).
Cheers,
Panos.
On Jan 21, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote:
So a few minutes ago we've had a conversation about this. Panos will set up a public collaboration space within GRNET. A few developers will be (part-time) working on this from February for a (so far) unspecified amount of time. The consensus was that it would be good to start off with some basic usability testing, to see how well the different tools work for novice users. It'll be very basic testing, with about 10 subjects from within GRNET (so with a bit of technical bias) but only those who haven't edited before.
Both Magnus' and my tools will be implemented on a clone of the Greek Wikipedia and we will set up a fabricated article that works well with both of our editors. It's only about the usability, not about technical aspects for now. Both editing tools will have to be adapted and localised, perhaps this can even be done by GRNET developers. We'll use my usability script that I used before with the Sentence-Level Editing usability research.
Once this usability testing has been done, we'll decide how to distribute the efforts, and what will be done. We'll work closely with the GRNET developers to assist them in working on these projects. Once we'll have more information it will be posted to this list.
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 23:34, Magnus Manske wrote:
I have added Panos to Skype; yes, we should probably exchange Skype handles off-list.
I am in Cambridge (London time), so that should work.
Cheers, Magnus
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:34 PM, Jan Paul Posma jp.posma@gmail.com wrote:
Skype sounds great! Also, I heard you work with Ariel, which is great because that way you have a more local person to contact with MediaWiki questions. Perhaps we can get off-list with those interested to schedule an introductory meeting? (You, me, Magnus, Ariel, others?) I am located in the Netherlands, so our hours will be similar.
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 19:47, Panos Louridas wrote:
Thanks to both Jean Paul and Magnus for taking up the offer!
Based on your input I will look into our developer tool for people with expertise in the following:
Advanced JS, preferably with experience in optimisation issues etc.
UI design, usability testing, etc.
Text processing (of sorts) for the needs of SLE
(if you believe I am missing something, say so)
I expect to have the people in place in February, I will let you know. I will be following the list.
Jean Paul indicated that we might talk in more detail. I do not follow IRC because of my tight schedule; I do use Skype, however (ID: louridas). Please Jean Paul, Magnus, and others, let me know if that suits you. As I am located in Athens, my waking hours are around East European Time.
Cheers,
Panos.
On Jan 19, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote:
> A very generous offer indeed! > > My own SLE and Magnus' WYSIFTW are indeed the most active projects, so that would be a good bet. Actually, for me the timing is just right, as I'll be working on a paper about this editor for a while, so it'd be cool to have someone(s) continue the project. If one of your researchers has a brilliant idea on how to do this right, that would obviously be really valuable too. > > A lot of things Magnus mentioned apply to my project too: > * Improving detection algorithms, i.e. better sentence-level editing (perhaps using an external language recognition library), better detection of other elements. Keep in mind that the editor excludes anything it doesn't 'understand', so this is a nice fallback, you don't have to write a complex parser that detects a lot of stuff at once. > * Cross-browser/platform/device compatibility (think mobile, touchscreens, etc.) > * Usability testing (the more the merrier!) > * Verifying detection coverage (Which % of the wikitext is editable) and quality (Wikitext -> Adding markers -> MediaWiki parser -> Removing markings -> Wikitext??) Checking this on a large number of pages. > * Test suites (again, the more the merrier, but only for parts of the code and interface that are considered stable!) > * Lots of implementation details: embedding the (current) editor toolbar in the textboxes, making sure (a fair percentage of) gadgets still work with this, and handling unusual cases like edit conflicts, etc. > > Perhaps it'd be good to have a (video or IRC?) conversation with you, your developers, people from the Foundation, and people from the specific projects you want to contribute to. Again, really awesome that you guys want to work on this! :-) > > Best regards, > Jan Paul > > On 19-Jan-2011, at 9:55, Magnus Manske wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Panos Louridas louridas@grnet.gr wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> At the Greek Research and Education Network (GRNET) we look at the possibility of contributing to the development of WYSIWYG editor support in Wikipedia. We understand that considerable work has already taken place in the area, e.g.: >>> >>> * http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIFTW >>> * https://svn.wikia-code.com/wikia/trunk/extensions/wikia/RTE/ >>> * http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing >>> >>> We therefore think that it will not be productive to reinvent the wheel over here. >>> >>> Our contribution can take the form of providing developers that will devote part (or all) of their time for some months in 2011. We welcome any comments and suggestions on how we could push this forward, and in particular: >>> >>> * Specific tasks / components that need to be designed, developed, optimized, etc., and estimates of effort and timeframe. >> >> Hi Panos, >> >> a very generous offer! One I would like to take you up on, for WYSIFTW >> as you no doubt have guessed :-) >> >> WYSIFTW is approaching feature completeness, as far as wiki markup >> parsing is concerned, and improves on usability as well. (just try the >> new "floating context hover boxes", in lack of a better name, that I >> added last night, wich come up when you hover over a template or a >> references, for show/hide and rendered preview, and the new optional >> rendering for templates as a key-value-pair table) >> >> For support later this year, tasks would include >> * increase parsing performance (mostly post-parsing steps, focusing on >> DOM lookup and manipulation) >> * improve editing usability (cut/copy/paste, better specialised >> dialogs for images, table/row/cell properties etc.) >> * usability testing (I'm using up volunteers fast ;-) >> * creating a test suite (to make sure that changes don't accidentally >> break anything) >> * general compatibility testing (find pages that parse/unparse >> wrongly, and patch the code accordingly) >> >> I like the sentence-level editing function, but once I add >> section-level editing to WYSIFTW, these two will start to converge. >> I'm curious which of these will be more suited to small fixes and >> adding single sentences/references etc. >> >> As for RTE, I know little about. Apparently, it is not suitable for >> Wikipedia in its current form. From brief looks at CKeditor, it might >> be quite some work to make it behave nicely around parsed wikitext, as >> used on Wikipedia. >> >> Cheers, >> Magnus >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikitech-l mailing list >> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikitech-l mailing list > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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1. Yeah, that's a problem, my usability research was also only in Dutch. What you can do is publish notes with the videos in English. You can even have these notes taken while doing the usability test (e.g. by someone else sitting in the room). 2. The format used at Commons is OGV, so it has to be transcoded.
It'd be cool to see the videos though, I'm really curious to see how the participants will work with the different interfaces. But if it's too time-consuming, you shouldn't do it.
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 22-Jan-2011, at 17:31, Panos Louridas wrote:
We could, if the people captured agree. Two caveats:
(1) Much of the audio could be all Greek to most.
(2) Does releasing to Wikimedia Commons requiring transcoding to an open format?
On Jan 22, 2011, at 4:59 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote:
I used the open source Camstudio, but (1) seems to be better as you can simultaneously capture the camera image. One question I didn't think of during the meeting: are you planning on releasing the videos online (e.g. on Wikimedia Commons)?
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 22-Jan-2011, at 14:29, Panos Louridas wrote:
Picking up on the usability testing,
Since we do not have a dedicated usability lab (but we do have people that have carried out usability studies), we will have to create something ourselves.
I understand that the basic requirements are the ability to capture both the screen and the user; and to capture them in a synchronized way.
From some research that we did, we came up with the following setups:
(1) Telestream ScreenFlow (http://www.telestream.net/screen-flow/overview.htm)
(2) Mac OS 10.6 podcast capture (but this requires a podcast server, i.e., Mac OS 10.6 server, and I am not sure it's worth it).
(3) Matterhorn capture (http://www.opencastproject.org/matterhorn_capture)
We are leaning towards solution (1). We welcome any comments, any alternative solutions that we may explore, or any arguments for (2) and (3).
Cheers,
Panos.
On Jan 21, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote:
So a few minutes ago we've had a conversation about this. Panos will set up a public collaboration space within GRNET. A few developers will be (part-time) working on this from February for a (so far) unspecified amount of time. The consensus was that it would be good to start off with some basic usability testing, to see how well the different tools work for novice users. It'll be very basic testing, with about 10 subjects from within GRNET (so with a bit of technical bias) but only those who haven't edited before.
Both Magnus' and my tools will be implemented on a clone of the Greek Wikipedia and we will set up a fabricated article that works well with both of our editors. It's only about the usability, not about technical aspects for now. Both editing tools will have to be adapted and localised, perhaps this can even be done by GRNET developers. We'll use my usability script that I used before with the Sentence-Level Editing usability research.
Once this usability testing has been done, we'll decide how to distribute the efforts, and what will be done. We'll work closely with the GRNET developers to assist them in working on these projects. Once we'll have more information it will be posted to this list.
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 23:34, Magnus Manske wrote:
I have added Panos to Skype; yes, we should probably exchange Skype handles off-list.
I am in Cambridge (London time), so that should work.
Cheers, Magnus
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:34 PM, Jan Paul Posma jp.posma@gmail.com wrote:
Skype sounds great! Also, I heard you work with Ariel, which is great because that way you have a more local person to contact with MediaWiki questions. Perhaps we can get off-list with those interested to schedule an introductory meeting? (You, me, Magnus, Ariel, others?) I am located in the Netherlands, so our hours will be similar.
Cheers, Jan Paul
On 19-Jan-2011, at 19:47, Panos Louridas wrote:
> Thanks to both Jean Paul and Magnus for taking up the offer! > > Based on your input I will look into our developer tool for people with expertise in the following: > > * Advanced JS, preferably with experience in optimisation issues etc. > > * UI design, usability testing, etc. > > * Text processing (of sorts) for the needs of SLE > > (if you believe I am missing something, say so) > > I expect to have the people in place in February, I will let you know. I will be following the list. > > Jean Paul indicated that we might talk in more detail. I do not follow IRC because of my tight schedule; I do use Skype, however (ID: louridas). Please Jean Paul, Magnus, and others, let me know if that suits you. As I am located in Athens, my waking hours are around East European Time. > > Cheers, > > Panos. > > On Jan 19, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Jan Paul Posma wrote: > >> A very generous offer indeed! >> >> My own SLE and Magnus' WYSIFTW are indeed the most active projects, so that would be a good bet. Actually, for me the timing is just right, as I'll be working on a paper about this editor for a while, so it'd be cool to have someone(s) continue the project. If one of your researchers has a brilliant idea on how to do this right, that would obviously be really valuable too. >> >> A lot of things Magnus mentioned apply to my project too: >> * Improving detection algorithms, i.e. better sentence-level editing (perhaps using an external language recognition library), better detection of other elements. Keep in mind that the editor excludes anything it doesn't 'understand', so this is a nice fallback, you don't have to write a complex parser that detects a lot of stuff at once. >> * Cross-browser/platform/device compatibility (think mobile, touchscreens, etc.) >> * Usability testing (the more the merrier!) >> * Verifying detection coverage (Which % of the wikitext is editable) and quality (Wikitext -> Adding markers -> MediaWiki parser -> Removing markings -> Wikitext??) Checking this on a large number of pages. >> * Test suites (again, the more the merrier, but only for parts of the code and interface that are considered stable!) >> * Lots of implementation details: embedding the (current) editor toolbar in the textboxes, making sure (a fair percentage of) gadgets still work with this, and handling unusual cases like edit conflicts, etc. >> >> Perhaps it'd be good to have a (video or IRC?) conversation with you, your developers, people from the Foundation, and people from the specific projects you want to contribute to. Again, really awesome that you guys want to work on this! :-) >> >> Best regards, >> Jan Paul >> >> On 19-Jan-2011, at 9:55, Magnus Manske wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Panos Louridas louridas@grnet.gr wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> At the Greek Research and Education Network (GRNET) we look at the possibility of contributing to the development of WYSIWYG editor support in Wikipedia. We understand that considerable work has already taken place in the area, e.g.: >>>> >>>> * http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/WYSIFTW >>>> * https://svn.wikia-code.com/wikia/trunk/extensions/wikia/RTE/ >>>> * http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing >>>> >>>> We therefore think that it will not be productive to reinvent the wheel over here. >>>> >>>> Our contribution can take the form of providing developers that will devote part (or all) of their time for some months in 2011. We welcome any comments and suggestions on how we could push this forward, and in particular: >>>> >>>> * Specific tasks / components that need to be designed, developed, optimized, etc., and estimates of effort and timeframe. >>> >>> Hi Panos, >>> >>> a very generous offer! One I would like to take you up on, for WYSIFTW >>> as you no doubt have guessed :-) >>> >>> WYSIFTW is approaching feature completeness, as far as wiki markup >>> parsing is concerned, and improves on usability as well. (just try the >>> new "floating context hover boxes", in lack of a better name, that I >>> added last night, wich come up when you hover over a template or a >>> references, for show/hide and rendered preview, and the new optional >>> rendering for templates as a key-value-pair table) >>> >>> For support later this year, tasks would include >>> * increase parsing performance (mostly post-parsing steps, focusing on >>> DOM lookup and manipulation) >>> * improve editing usability (cut/copy/paste, better specialised >>> dialogs for images, table/row/cell properties etc.) >>> * usability testing (I'm using up volunteers fast ;-) >>> * creating a test suite (to make sure that changes don't accidentally >>> break anything) >>> * general compatibility testing (find pages that parse/unparse >>> wrongly, and patch the code accordingly) >>> >>> I like the sentence-level editing function, but once I add >>> section-level editing to WYSIFTW, these two will start to converge. >>> I'm curious which of these will be more suited to small fixes and >>> adding single sentences/references etc. >>> >>> As for RTE, I know little about. Apparently, it is not suitable for >>> Wikipedia in its current form. From brief looks at CKeditor, it might >>> be quite some work to make it behave nicely around parsed wikitext, as >>> used on Wikipedia. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Magnus >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikitech-l mailing list >>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikitech-l mailing list >> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikitech-l mailing list > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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