I propose that we change the installer to make Project:, rather than the wiki name, the default option for meta namespace Manual:$wgMetaNamespacename (i.e. namespace 4 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Namespace#Built-in_namespaces). See bug 60168 https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60168. Here is an image of what I have in mind that the installer should show: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/mediawiki/b/b9/ProjectDefaultNamespac...
Rationales: 1) Standardizing the name makes life easier when people copy content from one wiki to another. E.g., if you import a template that links to Project:Policy rather than BarWiki:Policy, you don't need to edit the imported template, because it already links where it should.
2) Having the meta namespace name be the same as the wiki name causes collisions with interwiki prefixes when content is copied from one wiki to another. E.g., suppose FooWiki has an interwiki prefix linking to BarWiki (barwiki:) and then a user imports a template from BarWiki that links to BarWiki:Policy. That will now link interwiki to BarWiki's mainspace page "Policy" rather than to Project:Policy. It is not even possible to import BarWiki:Policy until the interwiki barwiki: prefix is first removed; the importer will say "Page 'BarWiki:Policy' is not imported because its name is reserved for external linking (interwiki)."
3) If you ever change the name of the wiki, you then have to change all the wikilinks to FooWiki: namespace; if it were Project:, they would stay the same. True, you can use namespace aliaseshttps://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgNamespaceAliases, but that could defeat part of the point of rebranding, which is to deprecate use of the old wiki name.
4) We don't have any other namespace names (User, Template, etc.) that are, by default, different from one wiki to the next; what is the logic for making an exception for the meta namespace?
On 4 May 2014 05:38, Nathan Larson nathanlarson3141@gmail.com wrote:
- We don't have any other namespace names (User, Template, etc.) that are,
by default, different from one wiki to the next; what is the logic for making an exception for the meta namespace?
Because the Template/User namespaces aren't the same thing as the project namespace?
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 7:11 PM, K. Peachey p858snake@gmail.com wrote:
On 4 May 2014 05:38, Nathan Larson nathanlarson3141@gmail.com wrote:
- We don't have any other namespace names (User, Template, etc.) that
are,
by default, different from one wiki to the next; what is the logic for making an exception for the meta namespace?
Because the Template/User namespaces aren't the same thing as the project namespace?
The Category namespace isn't the same thing as the Template or User namespaces either, but by default it's called by the same name from one wiki to the next. So, what makes the meta namespace so special?
If the argument is "The contents of the meta namespace differ from one wiki to the next; therefore the name of the meta namespace should also differ", that same argument could apply to all the other namespaces as well. The templates of enwiktionary, for example, differ from the templates of enwiki, but the namespace is called Template: on both.
This proposal makes no sense: all these namespaces _are_ dependent on wiki language, so even if you force "Project" down the throats of non-English users, project talk would still be e.g. Project_ахцәажәара for Abkhazian wikis and so on. Thus, you're attempting to disrupt MediaWiki's localizability for the sake of your ephemerous Inclumedia project. I don't think this is what our users want.
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Nathan Larson nathanlarson3141@gmail.comwrote:
I propose that we change the installer to make Project:, rather than the wiki name, the default option for meta namespace Manual:$wgMetaNamespacename (i.e. namespace 4 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Namespace#Built-in_namespaces). See bug 60168 https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60168. Here is an image of what I have in mind that the installer should show:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/mediawiki/b/b9/ProjectDefaultNamespac...
Rationales:
- Standardizing the name makes life easier when people copy content from
one wiki to another. E.g., if you import a template that links to Project:Policy rather than BarWiki:Policy, you don't need to edit the imported template, because it already links where it should.
- Having the meta namespace name be the same as the wiki name causes
collisions with interwiki prefixes when content is copied from one wiki to another. E.g., suppose FooWiki has an interwiki prefix linking to BarWiki (barwiki:) and then a user imports a template from BarWiki that links to BarWiki:Policy. That will now link interwiki to BarWiki's mainspace page "Policy" rather than to Project:Policy. It is not even possible to import BarWiki:Policy until the interwiki barwiki: prefix is first removed; the importer will say "Page 'BarWiki:Policy' is not imported because its name is reserved for external linking (interwiki)."
- If you ever change the name of the wiki, you then have to change all the
wikilinks to FooWiki: namespace; if it were Project:, they would stay the same. True, you can use namespace aliaseshttps://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgNamespaceAliases, but that could defeat part of the point of rebranding, which is to deprecate use of the old wiki name.
- We don't have any other namespace names (User, Template, etc.) that are,
by default, different from one wiki to the next; what is the logic for making an exception for the meta namespace?
-- Nathan Larson https://mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Leucosticte _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Max Semenik maxsem.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
This proposal makes no sense: all these namespaces _are_ dependent on wiki language, so even if you force "Project" down the throats of non-English users, project talk would still be e.g. Project_ахцәажәара for Abkhazian wikis and so on. Thus, you're attempting to disrupt MediaWiki's localizability for the sake of your ephemerous Inclumedia project. I don't think this is what our users want.
That's a non sequitur, as there has been no mention of Inclumedia anywhere in the discussion of this bug, and this proposal has no relation to Inclumedia. Nor does it have much relevance to to localisation, that I know of. The option of making Project: the name of the meta namespace is already available, and works fine when selected; this merely makes it the default option in the installer, so as to encourage what appears to be a better practice.
If you choose Abkhazian as the language in the installer, it will give you option of setting the meta namespace to Проект (Abkhazian for "Project"). This appears to be set in includes/installer/i18n/ru.json. In that file, the line reads ("config-ns-generic": "Проект",). In MessagesAb.php and so on, the meta talk namespace name is set by $namespaceNames[NS_PROJECT_TALK]. In that file, it says NS_PROJECT_TALK => '$1_ахцәажәара', If you pick that option, your meta talk namespace will be Проект_ахцәажәара, as it should be. So it seems like this wouldn't interfere with localisation in the way you describe.
I don't see how the proposed change forces anything down the throats of anyone any more than the current situation does; some option or another has to be the default, so the question is what's the best option to encourage people to pick.
On 05/04/2014 05:08 AM, Max Semenik wrote:
This proposal makes no sense: all these namespaces _are_ dependent on wiki language, so even if you force "Project" down the throats of non-English users, project talk would still be e.g. Project_ахцәажәара for Abkhazian wikis and so on.
I think you may be misunderstanding the proposal. I think it's proposing to use standard namespace names for the project namespace, rather than wiki-specific ones like the Wikipedia namespace.
That's not the same as not localizing the standard namespaces. For instance, Spanish Wikipedia uses the standard namespaces for e.g. User (Usario) and Category (Categoría) (that means e.g. Usario:Foo and User:Foo both work).
However, it uses Wikipedia for the meta namespace. Under this, it seems by default a new Spanish wiki would use Proyecto, with Project also working and referring to the same page.
Matt Flaschen
Note that "Project" and "Project talk" already work on any wiki. They are the canonical names for the namespace in question.
Namespaces have: * a localised/standard name for the local wiki (based on configuration like Wikipedia and/or localisation like Usario). * a canonical name (that is language and wiki independent, except for extra custom namespaces where the localised name becomes the canonical one, but project is not an extra custom namespace). * aliases (alternate translations or legacy names, such as "Image").
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_talk:X -> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_ discusión:X
— Krinkle
On 11 May 2014, at 16:15, Matthew Flaschen mflaschen@wikimedia.org wrote:
On 05/04/2014 05:08 AM, Max Semenik wrote:
This proposal makes no sense: all these namespaces _are_ dependent on wiki language, so even if you force "Project" down the throats of non-English users, project talk would still be e.g. Project_ахцәажәара for Abkhazian wikis and so on.
I think you may be misunderstanding the proposal. I think it's proposing to use standard namespace names for the project namespace, rather than wiki-specific ones like the Wikipedia namespace.
That's not the same as not localizing the standard namespaces. For instance, Spanish Wikipedia uses the standard namespaces for e.g. User (Usario) and Category (Categoría) (that means e.g. Usario:Foo and User:Foo both work).
However, it uses Wikipedia for the meta namespace. Under this, it seems by default a new Spanish wiki would use Proyecto, with Project also working and referring to the same page.
Matt Flaschen
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