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Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support

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Thomas Mulhall

29 Jun 2014 29 Jun '14

8:56 a.m.

Hi could we discontinue support for internet explorer 6 and 7 because jquery ui 1.11.0 drops support for internet explorer 6 and 7. Windows xp support internet explorer 8. and so I think we can discontinue support for internet exporer 6 and 7.

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Andre Klapper

29 Jun 29 Jun

9:28 a.m.

Hi, On Sun, 2014-06-29 at 16:56 +0100, Thomas Mulhall wrote:

Hi could we discontinue support for internet explorer 6 and 7 because jquery ui 1.11.0 drops support for internet explorer 6 and 7.

Could you elaborate how decisions made by Jquery UI developers are relevant for us, and who the "we" is here? MediaWiki?

Windows xp support internet explorer 8.

Could you elaborate why you think this is relevant? (My computer might support software that can manage a nuclear power plant, still I might not have that software installed because I don't have a nuclear power plant handy.) In any case, absolute browser numbers for Wikimedia can be found on http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportClients.htm andre -- Andre Klapper | Wikimedia Bugwrangler http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/

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Brian Wolff

10:33 a.m.

On 6/29/14, Andre Klapper <aklapper(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

Hi, On Sun, 2014-06-29 at 16:56 +0100, Thomas Mulhall wrote:

Hi could we discontinue support for internet explorer 6 and 7 because jquery ui 1.11.0 drops support for internet explorer 6 and 7.

Could you elaborate how decisions made by Jquery UI developers are relevant for us, and who the "we" is here? MediaWiki?

Windows xp support internet explorer 8.

Could you elaborate why you think this is relevant? (My computer might support software that can manage a nuclear power plant, still I might not have that software installed because I don't have a nuclear power plant handy.) In any case, absolute browser numbers for Wikimedia can be found on http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportClients.htm andre -- Andre Klapper | Wikimedia Bugwrangler http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

Wait, we support internet explorer 6? (Currently IE 6 is 1.17% and 7 is 0.9%. On our scale, 1% is actually a very high number of people. However some bots probably use IE6 as a user-agent, so unclear if those numbers are inflated). I would expect basic site functionality to work in IE 6. You should be able to edit a page, you should be able to read your talk page, etc. I wouldn't expect fancy new features to work unless they are critical to site function. Basically I would expect grade "B" support for IE6 as suggested on this "outdated" page: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Browser_support#Grade_B --bawolff

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Thomas Mulhall

11:15 a.m.

Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7.

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Antoine Musso

12:08 p.m.

Le 29/06/2014 20:15, Thomas Mulhall a écrit :

Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7.

At Wikimedia website scale, that 1% is roughly 500 millions HTML pages served over a month! We might start up a campaign to ask people to upgrade their browser or switch to another one. Might even want to conduct a survey to figure out why they are still using outdated browsers. Most probably: old computers or user doesn't know it can upgrade. -- Antoine "hashar" Musso

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Matthew Flaschen

2:34 p.m.

On 06/29/2014 03:08 PM, Antoine Musso wrote:

Le 29/06/2014 20:15, Thomas Mulhall a écrit :

Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7.

At Wikimedia website scale, that 1% is roughly 500 millions HTML pages served over a month!

A decision to stop using IE 6 workarounds for JavaScript features would probably not affect readers (the vast majority of those using IE 6 and 7) very much. It's not like we're going to blank the screen for old IE users. Matt Flaschen

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Pine W

2:38 p.m.

Could IE6 and IE7 users edit without Javascript, perhaps by using the mobile version of Wikipedia? Having a way for anyone to edit wikitext without requiring Javascript sounds like a good idea anyway. On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Flaschen <mflaschen(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

On 06/29/2014 03:08 PM, Antoine Musso wrote:

Le 29/06/2014 20:15, Thomas Mulhall a écrit :

Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7.

At Wikimedia website scale, that 1% is roughly 500 millions HTML pages served over a month!

A decision to stop using IE 6 workarounds for JavaScript features would probably not affect readers (the vast majority of those using IE 6 and 7) very much. It's not like we're going to blank the screen for old IE users. Matt Flaschen _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Pine W

2:39 p.m.

Ah, question answered right before my post. OK. On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Pine W <wiki.pine(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Could IE6 and IE7 users edit without Javascript, perhaps by using the mobile version of Wikipedia? Having a way for anyone to edit wikitext without requiring Javascript sounds like a good idea anyway. On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Matthew Flaschen <mflaschen(a)wikimedia.org

wrote:

On 06/29/2014 03:08 PM, Antoine Musso wrote:

Le 29/06/2014 20:15, Thomas Mulhall a écrit :

Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7.

At Wikimedia website scale, that 1% is roughly 500 millions HTML pages served over a month!

A decision to stop using IE 6 workarounds for JavaScript features would probably not affect readers (the vast majority of those using IE 6 and 7) very much. It's not like we're going to blank the screen for old IE users. Matt Flaschen _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Thomas Mulhall

2:44 p.m.

Well windows 200 is not supported. And windows xp internet explorer 6 was only made for windows xp. And windows xp user should upgrade to internet explorer 8 because internet explorer 6 has not been updated in a long time and has a lot of security flows whereas internet explorer 7 and 8 have smiler designs but are different. Windows xp users should be encouraged to update to a newer os like windows 7 or higher or update there browser to internet explorer 8.

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Matthew Flaschen

2:49 p.m.

On 06/29/2014 05:44 PM, Thomas Mulhall wrote:

Well windows 200 is not supported. And windows xp internet explorer 6 was only made for windows xp. And windows xp user should upgrade to internet explorer 8 because internet explorer 6 has not been updated in a long time and has a lot of security flows whereas internet explorer 7 and 8 have smiler designs but are different. Windows xp users should be encouraged to update to a newer os like windows 7 or higher or update there browser to internet explorer 8.

Windows XP is end of life. No version of IE (neither IE 6, IE 7, nor IE 8) are receiving security updates on XP. This (and the fact that IE 6 is not supported on any other desktop OS either) is part of why I think we should drop IE 6 entirely for all enhancements over the basic experience. We should not be encouraging people to use any browser on Windows XP, since the OS itself is not getting security updates. Matt Flaschen

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Thomas Mulhall

2:59 p.m.

Ok. We should also ask users of internet explorer 7 to upgrade to internet explorer 8.

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Pine W

3:17 p.m.

Sounds good. I also would think about having Wikimedia banners at the top of the browser for users of IE6 through IE8 that caution them that they are using a browser and OS with security risks that might, among other things, leave them vulnerable to having their Wikimedia browsing, Wikimedia account security, and email account security be compromised. On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Matthew Flaschen <mflaschen(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

On 06/29/2014 05:44 PM, Thomas Mulhall wrote:

Well windows 200 is not supported. And windows xp internet explorer 6 was only made for windows xp. And windows xp user should upgrade to internet explorer 8 because internet explorer 6 has not been updated in a long time and has a lot of security flows whereas internet explorer 7 and 8 have smiler designs but are different. Windows xp users should be encouraged to update to a newer os like windows 7 or higher or update there browser to internet explorer 8.

Windows XP is end of life. No version of IE (neither IE 6, IE 7, nor IE 8) are receiving security updates on XP. This (and the fact that IE 6 is not supported on any other desktop OS either) is part of why I think we should drop IE 6 entirely for all enhancements over the basic experience. We should not be encouraging people to use any browser on Windows XP, since the OS itself is not getting security updates. Matt Flaschen _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Daniel Norton

11:23 a.m.

On Jun 29, 2014, at 12:33 PM, Brian Wolff <bawolff(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Wait, we support internet explorer 6? (Currently IE 6 is 1.17% and 7 is 0.9%. On our scale, 1% is actually a very high number of people. However some bots probably use IE6 as a user-agent, so unclear if those numbers are inflated).

There’s no need to guess the actual numbers within useful ranges. What jQuery supports doesn’t seem completely relevant. 1) For those using older browsers, what are their upgrade opportunities and costs? 2) What is the social impact of dropping support? Will it inordinately affect those in identifiable geographic/cultural/economic groups? 3) What is the effort/cost of not dropping support. (Consider that “dropping” also includes the option of reduced functionality/usability.) — Daniel

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Thomas Mulhall

12:06 p.m.

Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7.

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Pine W

12:11 p.m.

Do we still have populations of legitimate users who are working with Windows-based operating systems older than XP? I have heard that in the developing world Windows 2000 is still in use, despite its security vulnerabilities. That said, I would not oppose strongly encouraging users to switch to an operating system that gets security patches. Pine On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Thomas Mulhall <thomasmulhall410(a)yahoo.com

wrote:

Well jquery iu says that less then 1% of those are using those browser so I think we should discontinue support for these browser windows xp can still get internet explorer 8 which supports more things then internet explorer 6 and 7. _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Antoine Musso

12:20 p.m.

Le 29/06/2014 21:11, Pine W a écrit :

Do we still have populations of legitimate users who are working with Windows-based operating systems older than XP? I have heard that in the developing world Windows 2000 is still in use, despite its security vulnerabilities. That said, I would not oppose strongly encouraging users to switch to an operating system that gets security patches. Pine

We have a monthly breakdown by OS at: http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm Windows NT 5.0 (2000) is 112M requests or 0.05% of total requests. Windows 98 has 75.5M or 0.03% 100 millions requests is still a huge number :-) One of my Mac is still using Mac OS 10.5 which is quite old. I cant upgrade it to a later version or it will just become too slow. Luckily, there is nothing of important on that laptop, that is merely a spare one I don't mind loosing. -- Antoine "hashar" Musso

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Pine W

12:33 p.m.

OK, next question is what costs would we be saving by dropping compatibility with IE 6 and 7? If the cost of maintaining compatibility is minimal, at least for basic Wikipedia accessibility and editing, then I hope that compatibility continues. Compatibility for advanced features may require more effort than makes sense. On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 12:20 PM, Antoine Musso <hashar+wmf(a)free.fr> wrote:

Le 29/06/2014 21:11, Pine W a écrit :

Do we still have populations of legitimate users who are working with Windows-based operating systems older than XP? I have heard that in the developing world Windows 2000 is still in use, despite its security vulnerabilities. That said, I would not oppose strongly encouraging users to switch to an operating system that gets security patches. Pine

We have a monthly breakdown by OS at: http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm Windows NT 5.0 (2000) is 112M requests or 0.05% of total requests. Windows 98 has 75.5M or 0.03% 100 millions requests is still a huge number :-) One of my Mac is still using Mac OS 10.5 which is quite old. I cant upgrade it to a later version or it will just become too slow. Luckily, there is nothing of important on that laptop, that is merely a spare one I don't mind loosing. -- Antoine "hashar" Musso _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Matthew Flaschen

2:37 p.m.

On 06/29/2014 01:33 PM, Brian Wolff wrote:

I would expect basic site functionality to work in IE 6. You should be able to edit a page, you should be able to read your talk page, etc. I wouldn't expect fancy new features to work unless they are critical to site function.

Agreed, and that can be accomplished simply by not actively breaking low-level functionality. As long as there is a no-JavaScript editing path (which there still is), and we don't carelessly use new CSS features for that path, old browsers (including IE 6) will still work for basic reading and editing (and my understanding is Flow will support no-JS too). Matt Flaschen

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Tim Starling

4:12 p.m.

On 30/06/14 03:33, Brian Wolff wrote:

Wait, we support internet explorer 6? (Currently IE 6 is 1.17% and 7 is 0.9%. On our scale, 1% is actually a very high number of people. However some bots probably use IE6 as a user-agent, so unclear if those numbers are inflated).

If it were 1% spread thinly throughout the world, among people who probably have access to other browsers and have no real excuse for using IE 6, then I would be in favour of dropping it. The trouble is, IE 6 accounts for about 22% of market share in mainland China: https://www.modern.ie/en-us/ie6countdown#list There is some dispute about this figure, but according to this article from March 2013, it is probably not too far off, if you count installations rather than web traffic: <http://globalsem.wordbank.com/global-marketing/ie6-china/> In China, we have enough trouble as it is trying to compete with local websites -- ending support for perhaps the most popular browser in that region could hardly help matters. -- Tim Starling

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Daniel Norton

4:27 p.m.

On Jun 29, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Tim Starling <tstarling(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

<http://globalsem.wordbank.com/global-marketing/ie6-china/>

Reading between the lines: updates are complicated. …[M]any of the Windows operating systems are not direct purchases – these methods do not allow upgrade. i.e. virtually all copies of IE6 are pirated. There are also concerns in China about U.S.-government back doors into later versions of I.E. http://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-china-clash-over-windows-8-and-charges-o… — Daniel

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Trevor Parscal

4:49 p.m.

I'm happy to see us talking about leaving these old browsers behind, but it seems a few existing policies and situations may have been overlooked in this thread thus far. Hopefully this list of things to consider will be helpful: 1. We are planning on moving away from jQuery UI this year as part of our UI standardization push 2. We have a policy in place that any browser with 0.1% market share or more should be supported for reading and basic contribution 3. We have a policy that reading and basic contribution should be possible without JavaScript 4. Depending on the feature, IE 6 and 7 are already unsupported 5. Not supporting older browsers is not always about work involved, many times it is not possible to bring certain features to a browser because of lack of support or severe bugs - Trevor On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Daniel Norton <daniel(a)danielnorton.com> wrote:

On Jun 29, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Tim Starling <tstarling(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

<http://globalsem.wordbank.com/global-marketing/ie6-china/>

Reading between the lines: updates are complicated. …[M]any of the Windows operating systems are not direct purchases – these methods do not allow upgrade. i.e. virtually all copies of IE6 are pirated. There are also concerns in China about U.S.-government back doors into later versions of I.E. http://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-china-clash-over-windows-8-and-charges-o… — Daniel _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Daniel Norton

5:51 p.m.

On Jun 29, 2014, at 6:49 PM, Trevor Parscal <tparscal(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

2. We have a policy in place that any browser with 0.1% market share or more should be supported for reading and basic contribution

It seems that wisdom would suggest flexibility on that policy if the < 0.1% includes a substantial portion of a notable demographic. e.g. China and IE6.

3. We have a policy that reading and basic contribution should be possible without JavaScript

And reading is probably necessary for effective (and efficient) SEO.

5. Not supporting older browsers is not always about work involved, many times it is not possible to bring certain features to a browser because of lack of support or severe bugs

I would consider that as cost → ∞ — Daniel

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Derk-Jan Hartman

30 Jun 30 Jun

3:33 a.m.

In addition to what Trevor stated, we recently even merged a JS change that 'took away' a JS enhancement from IE6 users, leaving them just the plain HTML form function. So I think we are getting closer to a point where when it comes to JS/CSS we will be removing some existing JS/CSS functionality, from IE6 as long as there is a proper fallback and it makes sense for other browsers. But basic readability will probably be around for quite some time to come. Even text based browsers still mostly work with MW. DJ On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 1:49 AM, Trevor Parscal <tparscal(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

I'm happy to see us talking about leaving these old browsers behind, but it seems a few existing policies and situations may have been overlooked in this thread thus far. Hopefully this list of things to consider will be helpful: 1. We are planning on moving away from jQuery UI this year as part of our UI standardization push 2. We have a policy in place that any browser with 0.1% market share or more should be supported for reading and basic contribution 3. We have a policy that reading and basic contribution should be possible without JavaScript 4. Depending on the feature, IE 6 and 7 are already unsupported 5. Not supporting older browsers is not always about work involved, many times it is not possible to bring certain features to a browser because of lack of support or severe bugs - Trevor On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 4:27 PM, Daniel Norton <daniel(a)danielnorton.com> wrote:

On Jun 29, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Tim Starling <tstarling(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:

<http://globalsem.wordbank.com/global-marketing/ie6-china/>

Reading between the lines: updates are complicated. …[M]any of the Windows operating systems are not direct purchases – these methods do not allow upgrade. i.e. virtually all copies of IE6 are pirated. There are also concerns in China about U.S.-government back doors into later versions of I.E. http://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-china-clash-over-windows-8-and-charges-o… — Daniel _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

_______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Thomas Mulhall

8:56 a.m.

Hi but the users can I also get google chrome or Firefox or any other browsers. Because chrome still support windows xp I think and still receives updates and it would speed up the site. Because it doesent need to check for ie 6 or 7.

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Florian Schmidt

9:06 a.m.

The problem is, that much people don't trust Google or Chrome (I know some people I can't into to use not IE), so I think it's better to say, that they can use IE 8. Kind regards Florian Freundliche Grüße Florian -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: wikitech-l-bounces(a)lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikitech-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] Im Auftrag von Thomas Mulhall Gesendet: Montag, 30. Juni 2014 17:56 An: Wikimedia developers Betreff: Re: [Wikitech-l] Discontinue internet explorer 6 and 7 support Hi but the users can I also get google chrome or Firefox or any other browsers. Because chrome still support windows xp I think and still receives updates and it would speed up the site. Because it doesent need to check for ie 6 or 7. _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Thomas Mulhall

10:41 a.m.

Ok. the message should only show to user if the code detects that they are using internet explorer 6 or 7.

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Daniel Norton

8:01 p.m.

On Jun 30, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Thomas Mulhall <thomasmulhall410(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi but the users can I also get google chrome or Firefox or any other browsers.

No, that’s not always true. Many websites in China work only with IE. (Not too long ago many government websites required IE6).

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Thomas Mulhall

2 Jul 2 Jul

4:22 a.m.

Oh ok but all china needs is basic functions like editing and reading the page. and it would speed up the website because it would take less time to load the page on newer browsers then older ones. On Tuesday, 1 July 2014, 4:01, Daniel Norton <daniel(a)danielnorton.com> wrote: On Jun 30, 2014, at 10:56 AM, Thomas Mulhall <thomasmulhall410(a)yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi but the users can I also get google chrome or Firefox or any other browsers.

No, that’s not always true. Many websites in China work only with IE. (Not too long ago many government websites required IE6). _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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Matthew Flaschen

29 Jun 29 Jun

2:44 p.m.

On 06/29/2014 11:56 AM, Thomas Mulhall wrote:

Hi could we discontinue support for internet explorer 6 and 7 because jquery ui 1.11.0 drops support for internet explorer 6 and 7. Windows xp support internet explorer 8. and so I think we can discontinue support for internet exporer 6 and 7.

IE 6 is end of life on all desktop operating systems (if you're surfing Wikipedia with Windows Server 2003, there are bigger problems). Windows XP is not receiving security updates for any version of IE (or even for the OS itself). That means desktop IE 6 users are receiving *no* security updates, except in the very unlikely (compared to the total number of IE 6 users) scenario that they work for a company paying for a special support contract. That doesn't mean we're going to suddenly show IE 6 readers a white screen of death, or block edits. However, I have already stopped supporting IE 6 for editor enhancements (e.g. GuidedTour, GettingStarted). As for IE7 (which is still receiving security updates on Windows Vista), I propose we continue supporting it for now, but at a lower level. For example, we are adding icons to text buttons right now. The icons don't work in IE 7 (or IE 6, but see above) due to IE 7's old CSS support. However, the text of the button still shows, so I consider it acceptable. The jQuery UI roadmap is decreasingly relevant to us, since we are moving away from jQuery UI (gradually, but there is some progress that may accelerate this). Matt Flaschen

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Thomas Mulhall

30 Jun 30 Jun

12:40 p.m.

Hi we just need to keep the codes for internet explorer 6 for reading and editing with basic function. And remove internet explorer6 from extensions and .js codes. And start notify internet explorer 6 and 7 users to upgrade to internet explorer 8 with a link to where they can download it from.

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participants (11)

Andre Klapper
Antoine Musso
Brian Wolff
Daniel Norton
Derk-Jan Hartman
Florian Schmidt
Matthew Flaschen
Pine W
Thomas Mulhall
Tim Starling
Trevor Parscal