Hi,
I am proofreading Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar [1] on the English Wikisource.
It uses intricate formatting and for proper display of Biblical Hebrew it needs a font which isn't installed on most people's computers. Fortunately, this font, called Ezra SIL SR, is Free Software, released under the Open Font License.[2]
Some modern browsers, such as Firefox 3.5 are able to render downloadable fonts in a way that is consistent with draft CSS 3 standard. Would it be possible to upload such a free font to Wikimedia servers and let people who use modern browsers, but don't have the font on their computer, enjoy the book with proper fonts without bothering with installing new fonts?
Thanks in advance.
[1] ( http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Index:Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar_%281910_Kautz...) [2] ( http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=silhebrunic2 )
Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
I am proofreading Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar [1] on the English Wikisource.
It uses intricate formatting and for proper display of Biblical Hebrew it needs a font which isn't installed on most people's computers. Fortunately, this font, called Ezra SIL SR, is Free Software, released under the Open Font License.[2]
Some modern browsers, such as Firefox 3.5 are able to render downloadable fonts in a way that is consistent with draft CSS 3 standard. Would it be possible to upload such a free font to Wikimedia servers and let people who use modern browsers, but don't have the font on their computer, enjoy the book with proper fonts without bothering with installing new fonts?
That'd be spiffy! :) A couple notes...
On the web & wiki end:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/%40font-face
It's not clear to me when fonts referenced in a @font-face get loaded; whether they'll always load when referenced in a style sheet, or only when something actually uses a style that requires them.
In particular for fonts that will only be used on some pages rather than on a whole site, we don't want to force people to be downloading fonts they're not using.
We should confirm what the behavior is with Firefox 3.5, Safari 3.1/4.0, and Opera 10 betas; unless they're very smart about only loading what they need, we'll probably need to devise an extension to import particular fonts for a given page.
We'll also need to write some quick code to do basic validation on .ttf and .otf files at upload time. (Bonus points for metadata extraction; many font files will contain copyright metadata, which among other things will make it easier to identify copyvio uploads of fonts without permission.)
On the upload server end:
Gecko browsers (Firefox 3.5 and related browsers supporting the new @font-face support) by default apply same-origin restrictions to fonts, meaning they have to be hosted on the same domain as the web page.
To support files uploaded to upload.wikimedia.org we'd need to poke about with access controls: https://developer.mozilla.org/En/HTTP_access_control
The simplest should be to add this HTTP header to .ttf files: Access-Control-Allow-Origin: *
We'll also want to configure the media web servers to send .ttf files gzipped, as this can lead to significant savings. (In the case of the Ezra font that Amir mentioned, this takes transfer size down from 152k to 59k.)
And of course there's the Internet Explorer question. :)
IE currently only supports the EOT "embedded" font format, and won't accept regular TrueType or OpenType font files. If there are free software tools for creating an EOT from a TTF or OTF which we could use to automate this, that would be quite nice. Otherwise it'll remain a progressive enhancement for standards-compliant browsers, and IE users will have to download the fonts manually.
-- brion
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Brion Vibberbrion@wikimedia.org wrote:
Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
I am proofreading Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar [1] on the English Wikisource.
It uses intricate formatting and for proper display of Biblical Hebrew it needs a font which isn't installed on most people's computers. Fortunately, this font, called Ezra SIL SR, is Free Software, released under the Open Font License.[2]
Some modern browsers, such as Firefox 3.5 are able to render downloadable fonts in a way that is consistent with draft CSS 3 standard. Would it be possible to upload such a free font to Wikimedia servers and let people who use modern browsers, but don't have the font on their computer, enjoy the book with proper fonts without bothering with installing new fonts?
That'd be spiffy! :) A couple notes...
On the web & wiki end:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/%40font-face
It's not clear to me when fonts referenced in a @font-face get loaded; whether they'll always load when referenced in a style sheet, or only when something actually uses a style that requires them.
In particular for fonts that will only be used on some pages rather than on a whole site, we don't want to force people to be downloading fonts they're not using.
We should confirm what the behavior is with Firefox 3.5, Safari 3.1/4.0, and Opera 10 betas; unless they're very smart about only loading what they need, we'll probably need to devise an extension to import particular fonts for a given page.
<snip>
According to what I've read, Firefox 3.5 is supposed to only load fonts that are actually used. I haven't tested this directly though.
-Robert Rohde
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Brion Vibberbrion@wikimedia.org wrote:
And of course there's the Internet Explorer question. :)
IE currently only supports the EOT "embedded" font format, and won't accept regular TrueType or OpenType font files. If there are free software tools for creating an EOT from a TTF or OTF which we could use to automate this, that would be quite nice. Otherwise it'll remain a progressive enhancement for standards-compliant browsers, and IE users will have to download the fonts manually.
ttf2eot should work:
http://code.google.com/p/ttf2eot/
EOT is a pretty trivial wrapper, with nothing patented unless you use MTX compression (which you don't have to).
Aryeh Gregor wrote:
ttf2eot should work:
http://code.google.com/p/ttf2eot/
EOT is a pretty trivial wrapper, with nothing patented unless you use MTX compression (which you don't have to).
Awesome! *bookmarking*
-- brion
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Brion Vibberbrion@wikimedia.org wrote:
Awesome! *bookmarking*
You could have just Googled "TTF to EOT converter" like I did. :P
Aryeh Gregor wrote:
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Brion Vibberbrion@wikimedia.org wrote:
Awesome! *bookmarking*
You could have just Googled "TTF to EOT converter" like I did. :P
*sob*
In my defense, last time I tried that I didn't find that project. ;)
-- brion
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 22:25, Brion Vibber brion@wikimedia.org wrote:
Aryeh Gregor wrote:
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Brion Vibberbrion@wikimedia.org wrote:
Awesome! *bookmarking*
You could have just Googled "TTF to EOT converter" like I did. :P
*sob*
In my defense, last time I tried that I didn't find that project. ;)
... Does this mean that it is in the TODO list? Or should i open a bug about it?
I am not a MW expert, but all in all it doesn't sound terribly complicated.
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni
"We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Amir E. Aharoniamir.aharoni@gmail.com wrote:
... Does this mean that it is in the TODO list? Or should i open a bug about it?
I am not a MW expert, but all in all it doesn't sound terribly complicated.
It sounds like it would require a significant amount of work. By all means open a bug, if there's not one already.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Aryeh GregorSimetrical+wikilist@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Amir E. Aharoniamir.aharoni@gmail.com wrote:
... Does this mean that it is in the TODO list? Or should i open a bug about it?
I am not a MW expert, but all in all it doesn't sound terribly complicated.
It sounds like it would require a significant amount of work. By all means open a bug, if there's not one already.
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Bug 1281 related?
-Chad
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 23:08, Chadinnocentkiller@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Aryeh GregorSimetrical+wikilist@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Amir E. Aharoniamir.aharoni@gmail.com wrote:
... Does this mean that it is in the TODO list? Or should i open a bug about it?
I am not a MW expert, but all in all it doesn't sound terribly complicated.
It sounds like it would require a significant amount of work. By all means open a bug, if there's not one already.
Bug 1281 related?
Bug 2361 is very closely related, but it is only about the Tamil Wikipedia. It should be available everywhere.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Amir E. Aharoniamir.aharoni@gmail.com wrote:
Bug 2361 is very closely related, but it is only about the Tamil Wikipedia. It should be available everywhere.
I've generalized the bug report (maybe I should have opened a new one instead, oh well) and commented. Reproducing comment here in case anyone has comments:
There are potentially serious issues with including zillions of web fonts that may or may not be needed. Some of them are big downloads, and WebKit refuses to lay out text until the font is downloaded. If a local font has the characters, that would be greatly preferable.
Would font-family: sans-serif, mycustomfont; mean "use mycustomfont, but only if the characters aren't available in the default local font"? The CSS 3 Fonts spec says it should, but CSS 2.1 seems vague; does it work in practice, and if so, in what browsers? In particular, do browsers download the font unnecessarily? Do they support unicode-range (I'm guessing IE doesn't)?
In an ideal world, it *should* be safe to have some custom font-families defined, and do something like this on all wikis:
html { font-family: sans-serif, Wikimedia-custom-font; } #p-lang { font-family: sans-serif; /* avoid downloading custom fonts just for interlanguage links */ }
I don't know if that would work in the real world without unpleasant side effects.
If we can use unicode-range effectively, then we can just deliver existing free fonts. If it's not, then we should combine the ones we need into a single file, so that browsers don't have to download a bunch of files in a row to figure out which one has the characters they actually need.
A lot depends on browser implementation here. If some browser doesn't support falling back on a character-by-character basis, then it will be a lot more painful to support this effectively. In fact I guess it would be impossible, for that browser, to automatically use web fonts without screwing up people's choice of default fonts for some of the text. Is anyone willing to test out IE, Firefox 3.5, and the appropriate Safari version to see how they behave?
Hoi, Downloadable fonts have a much bigger application. Many of the African Wikipedias languish because of a lack of support for extended Latin characters. The people from ANLOC are happy to help us assess where MediaWiki does not support these languages. This does affect whole wikis and it is one technical reason that can be solved why many of our African projects languish. Thanks, GerardM
http://www.africanlocalisation.net/
2009/7/16 Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@gmail.com
Hi,
I am proofreading Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar [1] on the English Wikisource.
It uses intricate formatting and for proper display of Biblical Hebrew it needs a font which isn't installed on most people's computers. Fortunately, this font, called Ezra SIL SR, is Free Software, released under the Open Font License.[2]
Some modern browsers, such as Firefox 3.5 are able to render downloadable fonts in a way that is consistent with draft CSS 3 standard. Would it be possible to upload such a free font to Wikimedia servers and let people who use modern browsers, but don't have the font on their computer, enjoy the book with proper fonts without bothering with installing new fonts?
Thanks in advance.
[1] (
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Index:Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar_%281910_Kautz... ) [2] ( http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=silhebrunic2 )
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni
"We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace." - T. Moore _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
PSEUDO OFF-TOPIC.
I work for a service for multicultural education. Something I notice, is that often the traductor uses a custom font. Theres a hebrew custom font, a urdu custom font, etc... using these fonts, you can write in these languages using unicode-unaware word processors. The text is not really in unicode. If you copy&paste the code from one of these word / pdf files to a unicode aware text editor, you get gibberish, like "xfdLnfO{ yfxf 5 ;a} dfG5] leGgleGg :jefj / k|j[lQsf x'G5g\ t/ klg zflGt /" (thats was a real text from a nepali document).
So, If you speak wolof, or urdu, or nepali, or continental chinois, or hebrew... I bet you have already have these fonts installed on your system. Like ...hum.... you already have a system, and the graphics, for these chara/H/H.. scripts.
The feature that embedded fonts add, is visual quality (and maybe some math symbols?). Embedded fonts is not a i18n technology for all.. but a very few countries. Everybody else just need "Arial Unicode" font.
IF there where a system to detect If a guy have a particular Hebrew or Urdu font. That would open the door to.. just.. use ..that..font..that...is ..already installed. The "Arial Unicode" font, or the "DavidD" (hebrew) font, etc..
I don't think this is possible. But since most people on this mail list have more expertise than myself, maybe someone can see what I can't see, how to detect a installed font, and redirect to a "real" page.
A "Feature Bonus" is that, If theres people in nepal / israel / africa already using these fonts / systems, It would be easier for these people to copy text from his word processor to the edit textarea of wikipedia... Wait...wait.. wait... If you want people to write something using font XYZ, the edit page sould use the font XYZ.. or will not see the graphics..... uh...oh.... troubles.
note: sorry about my horrible broken english.
note2: I am a UTF8 fanboy. I hate that people use something else, no idea why, maybe lack of support from some text processor?
Hoi, Using a font that is not based on UTF-8 is something that should be a conscious one. For all the languages that we currently support the script is supported in UTF-8. This means that there is imho no good argument to support non-UTF-8 fonts for any of our current projects. Thanks, GerardM
2009/7/17 Tei oscar.vives@gmail.com
PSEUDO OFF-TOPIC.
I work for a service for multicultural education. Something I notice, is that often the traductor uses a custom font. Theres a hebrew custom font, a urdu custom font, etc... using these fonts, you can write in these languages using unicode-unaware word processors. The text is not really in unicode. If you copy&paste the code from one of these word / pdf files to a unicode aware text editor, you get gibberish, like "xfdLnfO{ yfxf 5 ;a} dfG5] leGgleGg :jefj / k|j[lQsf x'G5g\ t/ klg zflGt /" (thats was a real text from a nepali document).
So, If you speak wolof, or urdu, or nepali, or continental chinois, or hebrew... I bet you have already have these fonts installed on your system. Like ...hum.... you already have a system, and the graphics, for these chara/H/H.. scripts.
The feature that embedded fonts add, is visual quality (and maybe some math symbols?). Embedded fonts is not a i18n technology for all.. but a very few countries. Everybody else just need "Arial Unicode" font.
IF there where a system to detect If a guy have a particular Hebrew or Urdu font. That would open the door to.. just.. use ..that..font..that...is ..already installed. The "Arial Unicode" font, or the "DavidD" (hebrew) font, etc..
I don't think this is possible. But since most people on this mail list have more expertise than myself, maybe someone can see what I can't see, how to detect a installed font, and redirect to a "real" page.
A "Feature Bonus" is that, If theres people in nepal / israel / africa already using these fonts / systems, It would be easier for these people to copy text from his word processor to the edit textarea of wikipedia... Wait...wait.. wait... If you want people to write something using font XYZ, the edit page sould use the font XYZ.. or will not see the graphics..... uh...oh.... troubles.
note: sorry about my horrible broken english.
note2: I am a UTF8 fanboy. I hate that people use something else, no idea why, maybe lack of support from some text processor?
--
ℱin del ℳensaje.
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Teioscar.vives@gmail.com wrote:
I work for a service for multicultural education. Something I notice, is that often the traductor uses a custom font. Theres a hebrew custom font, a urdu custom font, etc... using these fonts, you can write in these languages using unicode-unaware word processors. The text is not really in unicode. If you copy&paste the code from one of these word / pdf files to a unicode aware text editor, you get gibberish, like "xfdLnfO{ yfxf 5 ;a} dfG5] leGgleGg :jefj / k|j[lQsf x'G5g\ t/ klg zflGt /" (thats was a real text from a nepali document).
Formerly everyone used language-specific text encodings like ISO 8859. Hebrew uses ISO 8859-8, for instance, and most Latin-based European languages use ISO 8859-1 or ISO 8859-15. Also, you had fonts (Wingdings is a prominent example understandable by normal people) that just substituted glyphs in the font file itself. This approach is obsolete and can be ignored for our purposes. MediaWiki only supports, and only should support, UTF-8 output.
IF there where a system to detect If a guy have a particular Hebrew or Urdu font. That would open the door to.. just.. use ..that..font..that...is ..already installed. The "Arial Unicode" font, or the "DavidD" (hebrew) font, etc..
Browsers will usually do this already. If a character is not available in the font being used, they'll try to find it in some other installed font, and will only render a box or other error character if they can't. Firefox, at least, has behaved like this for a long time. I seem to recall IE didn't used to do this, but recent versions hopefully do.
Are you saying that if we had better font support for African languages, they would not languish anymore? I do think it is a necessary step but it is only the start. The reasons most of our African language projects remain in such a state are manifold, in my view.
Also - and perhaps this remains unknown to many - it seems to me that most Indigenous American languages on Wikipedia that have noticed any significant growth are built all by hobbyists with poor to mediocre command of the language, filling those Wikis with thousands of pages, and in the past they were even writing a good deal of the content in Spanish.
The fact that we allow almost anybody who volunteers to take near total control of a project in the absence of a community is not among our strongest attributes. For example, Jose77 - who does not even speak Uyghur by his own admission - overtook the Uyghur Wikipedia for awhile and based on personal vendetta converted most everything to Latin script, when Arabic is by far the most used script for the language. It remains heavily filled with Latin script content.
The Nahuatl Wikipedia is still dominated by non-indigenous hobbyists, who fill the posts of administrators and most prolific editors.
My view on such things has always been a minimalist approach - seeing an empty Wiki can be discouraging, so it's nice to put a little content there if you have some basic ability in a language so that others may feel more welcome. For example, at the Navajo Wikipedia I created around 100 bare-bones pages based on my rudimentary knowledge of the language, hoping that someone else would come around later and add more; in comparison, many of these people seem to be preoccupied with article counts, looking to create thousands of stubs in what very well could be completely nonsensical to a native speaker.
In some cases, my approach seemed to work very well. In a handful of others, it appears to have been less successful - the native speaking editor who has come to one Wikipedia has been following my "example" of making pages that have a single sentence and an illustration, rather than expanding upon existing pages or creating longer new pages and did not respond to the message I left him.
Mark
On 7/17/09, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Downloadable fonts have a much bigger application. Many of the African Wikipedias languish because of a lack of support for extended Latin characters. The people from ANLOC are happy to help us assess where MediaWiki does not support these languages. This does affect whole wikis and it is one technical reason that can be solved why many of our African projects languish. Thanks, GerardM
http://www.africanlocalisation.net/
2009/7/16 Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@gmail.com
Hi,
I am proofreading Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar [1] on the English Wikisource.
It uses intricate formatting and for proper display of Biblical Hebrew it needs a font which isn't installed on most people's computers. Fortunately, this font, called Ezra SIL SR, is Free Software, released under the Open Font License.[2]
Some modern browsers, such as Firefox 3.5 are able to render downloadable fonts in a way that is consistent with draft CSS 3 standard. Would it be possible to upload such a free font to Wikimedia servers and let people who use modern browsers, but don't have the font on their computer, enjoy the book with proper fonts without bothering with installing new fonts?
Thanks in advance.
[1] (
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Index:Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar_%281910_Kautz... ) [2] ( http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=silhebrunic2 )
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni
"We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace." - T. Moore _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Mark Williamsonnode.ue@gmail.com wrote: ...
The fact that we allow almost anybody who volunteers to take near total control of a project in the absence of a community is not among our strongest attributes. For example, Jose77 - who does not even speak Uyghur by his own admission - overtook the Uyghur Wikipedia for awhile and based on personal vendetta converted most everything to Latin script, when Arabic is by far the most used script for the language. It remains heavily filled with Latin script content.
Idea1: Using a mentoring system. Sounds to me like "Jose77" sould have been the mentor (has the tecnical and the experience), but not the admin. I don't know if that idea make much sense.
Idea2: Using the english wiki as a "jump-start". Add a new link "Create this article in your lang" to articles: step 1) click "Create this article in your lang" step 2) show wikis that need a article about the topic step 3) click on one of these names (maybe click in XYZ wiki) step 4) enter new title in language XYZ. step 5) new article in wiki XYZ is create with that title, you edit it.
Hoi, What I am saying is that this is something that is our power to solve. It is not the only issue but this is something that is easy to solve, Thanks, Gerard
2009/7/17 Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com
Are you saying that if we had better font support for African languages, they would not languish anymore? I do think it is a necessary step but it is only the start. The reasons most of our African language projects remain in such a state are manifold, in my view.
Also - and perhaps this remains unknown to many - it seems to me that most Indigenous American languages on Wikipedia that have noticed any significant growth are built all by hobbyists with poor to mediocre command of the language, filling those Wikis with thousands of pages, and in the past they were even writing a good deal of the content in Spanish.
The fact that we allow almost anybody who volunteers to take near total control of a project in the absence of a community is not among our strongest attributes. For example, Jose77 - who does not even speak Uyghur by his own admission - overtook the Uyghur Wikipedia for awhile and based on personal vendetta converted most everything to Latin script, when Arabic is by far the most used script for the language. It remains heavily filled with Latin script content.
The Nahuatl Wikipedia is still dominated by non-indigenous hobbyists, who fill the posts of administrators and most prolific editors.
My view on such things has always been a minimalist approach - seeing an empty Wiki can be discouraging, so it's nice to put a little content there if you have some basic ability in a language so that others may feel more welcome. For example, at the Navajo Wikipedia I created around 100 bare-bones pages based on my rudimentary knowledge of the language, hoping that someone else would come around later and add more; in comparison, many of these people seem to be preoccupied with article counts, looking to create thousands of stubs in what very well could be completely nonsensical to a native speaker.
In some cases, my approach seemed to work very well. In a handful of others, it appears to have been less successful - the native speaking editor who has come to one Wikipedia has been following my "example" of making pages that have a single sentence and an illustration, rather than expanding upon existing pages or creating longer new pages and did not respond to the message I left him.
Mark
On 7/17/09, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Downloadable fonts have a much bigger application. Many of the African Wikipedias languish because of a lack of support for extended Latin characters. The people from ANLOC are happy to help us assess where MediaWiki does not support these languages. This does affect whole wikis
and
it is one technical reason that can be solved why many of our African projects languish. Thanks, GerardM
http://www.africanlocalisation.net/
2009/7/16 Amir E. Aharoni amir.aharoni@gmail.com
Hi,
I am proofreading Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar [1] on the English
Wikisource.
It uses intricate formatting and for proper display of Biblical Hebrew
it
needs a font which isn't installed on most people's computers. Fortunately, this font, called Ezra SIL SR, is Free Software, released under the Open Font License.[2]
Some modern browsers, such as Firefox 3.5 are able to render
downloadable
fonts in a way that is consistent with draft CSS 3 standard. Would it be possible to upload such a free font to Wikimedia servers and let people who use modern browsers, but don't have the font on their computer, enjoy
the
book with proper fonts without bothering with installing new fonts?
Thanks in advance.
[1] (
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Index:Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar_%281910_Kautz...
) [2] (
http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=silhebrunic2 )
-- Amir Elisha Aharoni
"We're living in pieces, I want to live in peace." - T. Moore _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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-- skype: node.ue
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