Tim Starling wrote:

The workarounds that come to mind for the line break issue are fairly obscure and complex. If I were you I'd just put the categories on the same line and be done with it.

I'll need the workaround, as this was a simplified example. My actual code generates a long list of template parameters (also wanted one per line) and up to 18 categories. All on one line is not so good....

Should invoking another function (perhaps called {{newline}}) at each point preserve internal line breaks?

{{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par1|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}newline |[[Category:{{{par1}}}{{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{key1|}}}|{{{key1}}}}}]] <!-- bpar1 --> }} }}

Tim Starling <tstarling <at> wikimedia.org> writes:

{{subst:!}} no longer works as a separator between parser function parameters, it just works as a literal character. Welcome to MediaWiki 1.12.

Seems like it was intended to be the | in [[category:foo|bar]], except that someone forgot a | from the code. Correctly it would be:

{{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par1|}}}|[[Category:{{{par1}}}{{{{{subst|}}}#if: {{{key1|}}}|{{{{{subst|}}}!}}{{{key1}}}}}]] <!-- bpar1 --> }}{{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par2|}}}|[[Category:{{{par2}}}{{{{{subst|}}}#if: {{{key2|}}}|{{{{{subst|}}}!}}{{{key2}}}}}]] <!-- bpar2 --> }}{{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par3|}}}|[[Category:{{{par3}}}{{{{{subst|}}}#if: {{{key3|}}}|{{{{{subst|}}}!}}{{{key3}}}}}]] <!-- bpar3 --> }}

(Note that I added extra linebreaks after #if: so that gmane doesn't complain for lines being too long.)

The workarounds that come to mind for the line break issue are fairly obscure and complex. If I were you I'd just put the categories on the same line and be done with it.

Just put the templates on separate lines and wrap the whole thing in another #if to discard additional newlines at the end:

{{#if:1| {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par1|1}}}|[[Category:{{{par1}}}{{{{{subst|}}}#if: {{{key1|1}}}|{{{{{subst|}}}!}}{{{key1}}}}}]]}} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par2|}}}|[[Category:{{{par2}}}{{{{{subst|}}}#if: {{{key2|}}}|{{{{{subst|}}}!}}{{{key2}}}}}]]}} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par3|}}}|[[Category:{{{par3}}}{{{{{subst|}}}#if: {{{key3|}}}|{{{{{subst|}}}!}}{{{key3}}}}}]]}} }}

(This assumes that whenever par2 is missing, par3 is missing too.)

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:

Hoi, At some stage Wikipedia was this thing that everybody can edit... I can not and will not edit this shit so what do you expect from the average Joe ??

I can not (effectively) contribute to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments_in_Roman_Catholicism

Does this mean Wikipedia is a failure?

I don't think so. Not everyone needs to be able to do everything. Thats one reasons projects have communities: Other people can do the work which I'm not interested in or not qualified for. Not everyone needs to make templates— and there are some people who'd have nothing else to do but add fart jokes to science articles if the site didn't have plenty of template mongering that needed doing.

Unfortunately the existing system is needlessly exclusive. The existing parser function uses solution are so byzantine that even many people with the right interest and knowledge are significantly put off from it.

The distinction between this and a general "easy to use" is a very critical one.

It's also the case that the existing system's problems spills past its borders due to its own limitations: Regular users need to deal with things like weird whitespace handling and templates which MUST be substed (or can't be substed; at random from the user's perspective). This makes the system harder even for the vast majority of people who should never need to worry about the internals of the templates.

I think this is the most important issue, and its one with real usability impacts, but it's not due to the poor syntax. On this point, the template language could be intercal but still leave most users completely free to ignore the messy insides. The existing system doesn't because there is no clear boundary between the page and the templates (among other reasons, like the limitations of the existing 'string' manipulation functions).

As this thread has come back, I'd like to take the time to say thank you.

Tisza Gergő wrote:

Just put the templates on separate lines and wrap the whole thing in another #if to discard additional newlines at the end:

{{#if:1| {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par1|1}}}|[[Category:{{{par1}}}{{{{{subst|}}}#if: {{{key1|1}}}|{{{{{subst|}}}!}}{{{key1}}}}}]]}} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par2|}}}|[[Category:{{{par2}}}{{{{{subst|}}}#if: {{{key2|}}}|{{{{{subst|}}}!}}{{{key2}}}}}]]}} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par3|}}}|[[Category:{{{par3}}}{{{{{subst|}}}#if: {{{key3|}}}|{{{{{subst|}}}!}}{{{key3}}}}}]]}} }}

(This assumes that whenever par2 is missing, par3 is missing too.)

That worked, and I finally finished the replacements today. For just the categories, I needed 3 levels of those wrapping #if's. Elsewhere, I needed 4 levels.

Fortunately, BBedit on a Mac does a good job keeping track of the levels for balancing {}.

My final code for posterity (aligned, using my emit templates, but not putting the par test in them yet, which could probably be done to make the code cleaner) for just the categories -- see the actual 40+ parameter mess at [[Template:Catdesc wipeout parent categories]]:

{{{{{subst|}}}#if:3 | {{{{{subst|}}}#if:1 | {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par1|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{par1|}}} |2={{{key1|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par2|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{par2|}}} |2={{{key2|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par3|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{par3|}}} |2={{{key3|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par4|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{par4|}}} |2={{{key4|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par5|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{par5|}}} |2={{{key5|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{par6|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{par6|}}} |2={{{key6|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:2 | {{{{{subst|}}}#if:1 | {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{dpar1|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{dpar1|}}} |2={{{dkey1|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{dpar2|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{dpar2|}}} |2={{{dkey2|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{dpar3|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{dpar3|}}} |2={{{dkey3|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{dpar4|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{dpar4|}}} |2={{{dkey4|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{dpar5|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{dpar5|}}} |2={{{dkey5|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{dpar6|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{dpar6|}}} |2={{{dkey6|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:1 | {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{epar1|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{epar1|}}} |2={{{ekey1|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{epar2|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{epar2|}}} |2={{{ekey2|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{epar3|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{epar3|}}} |2={{{ekey3|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{epar4|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{epar4|}}} |2={{{ekey4|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{epar5|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{epar5|}}} |2={{{ekey5|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} {{{{{subst|}}}#if:{{{epar6|}}} |{{{{{subst|}}}emit category |1={{{epar6|}}} |2={{{ekey6|}}} |subst={{{subst|}}} }} }} }} }} }}