Hello everyone, the Hebrew wikipedia is currently having a "logo contest" for the site's logo and there are already three proposals, I would like to know how to replace the standard (english) one with the new one. So I have a number of qustions:
* How to replace the logo if the target (new) file is PNG? * How to replace the logo if the target is JPG? * Can we have a different logos for regular articles (with white background) and a different one for the meta namespace (with yellow background) assuming IE's problem with transparant colour PNGs isn't solved (as it probably won't)?
An unrelated question: can I make all links non-underlined by default for anonymous users? (to make the site more pretty and attractive. As Hebrew internet indexes currently rate wikipedia in english 3/5 and everything2 5/5 probably just because of the layout thing, damn its ugly!!)
Some links:
Hebrew wikipedia: http://he.wikipedia.org
Logo contest (just look at the original proposals): http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%95%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9...
-- Rotem Dan (p.s: Hebrew wikipedia got 85 articles and 4500 page views in the past 4 days and is rapidly getting new participants, as there are already about 20)
More things: I would like to remove:
* "Main page", "Recent changes", "Edit this page", "Previous versions" from both the top and bottom (Which also contains "What links here" and "Related changes" to remove) -- Simply redundant and confusing, this is not good website design, I mean, links should be single and clear, otherwise it's confusing and cluttered.
*"Special pages" drop down box which is practically useless for readers and many contributors but I would like it to show only for registered users as they may find these features handy.
* Duplicate language links on bottom, especially on main page, are simply not needed.
* And a previous request I will list: links wouldn't be underlined by default as it's rather ugly with hebrew.
I really think the layout is important to get high ranking on editorial reviews (we are planning to get a news story on a major newspaper and also and get listed Internet directories with a high ranking), and also, I wish to make the Encyclopedia simple and easy to read, and the above layout items aren't making it easier.
-- Rotem Dan
Rotem Dan wrote:
- "Main page", "Recent changes", "Edit this page", "Previous versions"
from both the top and bottom (Which also contains "What links here" and "Related changes" to remove) -- Simply redundant and confusing, this is not good website design, I mean, links should be single and clear, otherwise it's confusing and cluttered.
I've found this on CVS, Skin.php ( doBeforeContent())
... (similar to below, but couldn't find)
( doaftercontent() )
$s .= $this->bottomLinks(); $s .= "\n<br>" . $this->mainPageLink() . " | " . $this->aboutLink() . " | " . $this->specialLink( "recentchanges" ) . " | " . $this->searchForm() . "<br>" . $this->pageStats();
If I comment out "$s .= $this->bottomLinks();" and ". " | " . $this->specialLink( "recentchanges" )" on the Hebrew wiki will it work?
(I would have done it myself If I had Developer access and knew how to use it, does it use SSH, FTP?)
--Rotem
Actually, it's very easy to hack an instant clutter killer for every page on default skin (and colonge blue skin, heck with the old "nostalgic skin", it doesn't even work with hebrew):
Skin.php:
function doBeforeContent() { ... $s .= "<td {$borderhack} align='$l' valign='top'>";
//$s .= $this->topLinks() ; (commented, bye bye junk on top) $s .= "<p class='subtitle'>" . $this->pageTitleLinks(); ... }
function doAfterContent() { ... // $s .= $this->bottomLinks(); (removed duplicate links) $s .= "\n<br>" //. $this->mainPageLink() (removed duplicate link) . " | " . $this->aboutLink() // . " | " . $this->specialLink( "recentchanges" ) (removed duplicate link) . " | " . $this->searchForm() //(this is duplicate but probably useful) . "<br>" . $this->pageStats(); ... }
and that's about it, If I had dev access I would have put it already, I don't think Hebopedia users would protest :-) --Rotem
Rotem Dan wrote:
More things: I would like to remove:
- "Main page", "Recent changes", "Edit this page", "Previous versions"
from both the top and bottom (Which also contains "What links here" and "Related changes" to remove) -- Simply redundant and confusing, this is not good website design, I mean, links should be single and clear, otherwise it's confusing and cluttered.
Why exactly do you want to diverge this heavily from the site design that all the other Wikipedias use? That seems inconsistent and confusing.
If it's that important to you, you could just set the Hebrew Wikipedia's default skin to 'Nostalgia'. This should be possible (Esperanto has 'Cologne Blue' as the default, while others use 'Standard').
Timwi
Timwi wrote:
Rotem Dan wrote:
More things: I would like to remove:
- "Main page", "Recent changes", "Edit this page", "Previous versions"
from both the top and bottom (Which also contains "What links here" and "Related changes" to remove) -- Simply redundant and confusing, this is not good website design, I mean, links should be single and clear, otherwise it's confusing and cluttered.
Why exactly do you want to diverge this heavily from the site design that all the other Wikipedias use? That seems inconsistent and confusing.
I would just like to remove some redundant links that already exist on the quickbar from the pages to make it more clean and user-friendly. I don't think that would confuse heb-wikipedia users.
If it's that important to you, you could just set the Hebrew Wikipedia's default skin to 'Nostalgia'. This should be possible (Esperanto has 'Cologne Blue' as the default, while others use 'Standard').
Timwi
These skins don't work well with RTL layout and bidi text; and also, the quickbar is set to be on right by default and that only works well with the default skin.
I've found the PHP code to comment out on skin.php for some of these changes, I don't know how exactly to update it to the site.
If you would like these change to be on CVS, then I don't know, Making other versions of skin.php is probably not a good idea, so I can probably just leave the CVS version as is and as the code gets updated from CVS I will just recomment out the changes I want. (I guess that's not really a big deal if skin.php will get updated on all sites, say, once in two months or so)
There are additional bugs with hebrew support in Konquerer and Mozilla (page width issues), and TeX formula LTR layout problem users are complaining about. I would like to try to fix these out. And they will also make a diversions from CVS but need to get fixed (I will try to merge them later with appropriate conditionals).
Does the system work with SSH or FTP so I can upload it, or is it something else?
--Rotem
hey kids.
Ok, you know what, i know we've talked about this before, and nobody seemed to care, but what about templates? Why don't we just straight up abstract the code from the layout stuff? It needs to be done. I am a big fan of templates and use them often, and you know what? It makes code a lot cleaner and less clutered and makes different skins and i8n a lot easier. Plus its no more less efficient than having include files with like 400 localized strings. The slowdown would be minimal. As we have noticed, localization consists of more than just translating simple strings, because different languages have different needs and so should have different layouts (while still trying to keep things similar and consistent) This would also would allow us to have different skins, and maybe in the future do a bit of browser sniffing so we could have decent skins for decent browsers andold skins for old browsers....
my suggestion: smarty http://smarty.php.net a big plus is its built in advanced features and caching (which is extremely flexible)
Lightning
Timwi wrote:
Rotem Dan wrote:
More things: I would like to remove:
- "Main page", "Recent changes", "Edit this page", "Previous
versions" from both the top and bottom (Which also contains "What links here" and "Related changes" to remove) -- Simply redundant and confusing, this is not good website design, I mean, links should be single and clear, otherwise it's confusing and cluttered.
Why exactly do you want to diverge this heavily from the site design that all the other Wikipedias use? That seems inconsistent and confusing.
If it's that important to you, you could just set the Hebrew Wikipedia's default skin to 'Nostalgia'. This should be possible (Esperanto has 'Cologne Blue' as the default, while others use 'Standard').
The top bar of links is currently very cluttered. I need to find some spare time to work on my redesign.
On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:47:54PM +0200, Timwi wrote:
Rotem Dan wrote:
More things: I would like to remove:
- "Main page", "Recent changes", "Edit this page", "Previous versions"
from both the top and bottom (Which also contains "What links here" and "Related changes" to remove) -- Simply redundant and confusing, this is not good website design, I mean, links should be single and clear, otherwise it's confusing and cluttered.
Why exactly do you want to diverge this heavily from the site design that all the other Wikipedias use? That seems inconsistent and confusing.
If it's that important to you, you could just set the Hebrew Wikipedia's default skin to 'Nostalgia'. This should be possible (Esperanto has 'Cologne Blue' as the default, while others use 'Standard').
No, that's site design what's broken. Everyone should be using nonunderlined links with something more like Cologne Blue. Standard sucks, underlined links suck double.
Tomasz Wegrzanowski taw@users.sourceforge.net writes:
No, that's site design what's broken. Everyone should be using nonunderlined links with something more like Cologne Blue. Standard sucks, underlined links suck double.
Yeah, the idea that wikipedia's links should look consistent with practically everyone else on the web really sucks.
People understand that underlined means hyper-link. Therefore underlined links are good.
On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 02:13:15PM +0100, Gareth Owen wrote:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski taw@users.sourceforge.net writes:
No, that's site design what's broken. Everyone should be using nonunderlined links with something more like Cologne Blue. Standard sucks, underlined links suck double.
Yeah, the idea that wikipedia's links should look consistent with practically everyone else on the web really sucks.
Era of consistency online is over, can't you see it ? Everyone and his dog is abusing CSS and stuff.
People understand that underlined means hyper-link. Therefore underlined links are good.
No, they're horrible. Normal page has something like 5 links, normal wiki article has something like 50. Underlining every second word sucks big.
Tomasz Wegrzanowski taw@users.sourceforge.net writes:
Era of consistency online is over, can't you see it ? Everyone and his dog is abusing CSS and stuff.
Well, I use links, and edit wikipedia exclusively with netscape 3, so I'd imagine that I don't see it...
Let me check my favourite sites with Mozilla :
www.guardian.co.uk => links underlined news.bbc.co.uk => links underlined (when I mouse-over them) slashdot.org => links underlined wikipedia.org => links underlined espn.com => links underlined baseballprospectus.com => links underlined google.com => links underlined www.quotationspage.com => links underlined (except in nav-bars when they underline on mouse-over) ussmariner.blogspot.com => Yea! Found one. Links *not* underlined They are bold though, which looks just as silly when chained together
1 out of 9. Colour me unimpressed.
Rotem-
More things: I would like to remove:
- "Main page", "Recent changes", "Edit this page", "Previous versions"
from both the top and bottom (Which also contains "What links here" and "Related changes" to remove) -- Simply redundant and confusing, this is not good website design, I mean, links should be single and clear, otherwise it's confusing and cluttered.
Untrue. Redundant links are helpful in navigation because they reduce the average mouse path and increase visibility of important elements. Inconsistency across wikis in this area is a very bad thing, and I strongly discourage you from specifically altering the Hebrew Wiki to that effect.
If you wish to change our defaults, then suggest the changes to the defaults. But if your arguments are correct, they should be applicable to all wikis, so don't try to take a shortcut by sneaking in your favorite changes on "your" wiki. It's bad enough that Esperanto uses a different skin by default, making it look entirely different from all other wikis. And we should have a single international logo for all Wikipedias. This is one project, after all.
Making links non-underlined by default is fine with me, there is, however, some strong opposition to such a change.
Regards,
Erik
Erik Moeller wrote:
Rotem-
More things: I would like to remove:
- "Main page", "Recent changes", "Edit this page", "Previous versions"
from both the top and bottom (Which also contains "What links here" and "Related changes" to remove) -- Simply redundant and confusing, this is not good website design, I mean, links should be single and clear, otherwise it's confusing and cluttered.
Untrue. Redundant links are helpful in navigation because they reduce the average mouse path and increase visibility of important elements. Inconsistency across wikis in this area is a very bad thing, and I strongly discourage you from specifically altering the Hebrew Wiki to that effect.
If you wish to change our defaults, then suggest the changes to the defaults. But if your arguments are correct, they should be applicable to all wikis, so don't try to take a shortcut by sneaking in your favorite changes on "your" wiki. It's bad enough that Esperanto uses a different skin by default, making it look entirely different from all other wikis. And we should have a single international logo for all Wikipedias. This is one project, after all.
Making links non-underlined by default is fine with me, there is, however, some strong opposition to such a change.
Regards,
Erik
Please, I would not like to argue about something silly as this, my arguments are nor "correct" nor "incorrect", I was just trying to make small improvements to the HTML layout to make it more simpler and easier for users to use. If they won't like it it would have been reverted to the previous version.
As for trying to "sneak" things in, I thought different language versions gets autonomy regarding decisions like this. And since I worked a lot on the language file, I saw that it was pretty easy to change things on PHP to make the site more easier to use, and that's not a bad thing.
Making every little decision and improvement on the wiki code a project-wide issue for 40+ wikis is just beurocratic as hell. I have many ideas and I know a bit of PHP. If the users (that actually use that wiki) want a feature, bug fix, or a change on wiki X, why not just let them have it? what's the big deal? If you use the hebrew wiki and don't like this and that feature just say it, otherwise, that shouldn't interest you.
I think that reagardless of geographical, national etc. differences on wiki users demographies (that I think has nothing to do with anything here anyway). he.wikipedia.org is a complete, (almost) independent site, that has its users and readers, they should be the ones who vote for decisions related to their site, including policy, wiki code, layout, licensing and logo. Just because the english wiki has 15,000 registered users, and the hebrew wiki has 30 should not matter because those 30 or so *are* the ones who work on it and they know what they like or don't like on their site.
--Rotem
. And since I worked a lot on the language file, I saw that it was pretty easy to change things on PHP to make the site more easier to use, and that's not a bad thing.
I hope you didn't put "more easier" in the language file.
Just messing with you, just a joke.
Lightning
Lightning wrote:
. And since I worked a lot on the language file, I saw that it was pretty easy to change things on PHP to make the site more easier to use, and that's not a bad thing.
I hope you didn't put "more easier" in the language file.
Just messing with you, just a joke.
Lightning
My english does get a bit cumbersome from time to time.. ;)
Rotem
--- Rotem Dan rotem_dan@yahoo.com wrote:
I think that reagardless of geographical, national etc. differences on wiki users demographies (that I think has nothing to do with anything here anyway). he.wikipedia.org is a complete, (almost) independent site, that has its users and readers, they should be the ones who vote for decisions related to their site, including policy, wiki code, layout, licensing and logo. Just because the english wiki has 15,000 registered users, and the hebrew wiki has 30 should not matter because those 30 or so *are* the ones who work on it and they know what they like or don't like on their site.
--Rotem
sigh
yes
But there are some things that should be common, such as licensing and things that should not be, such as policies and things we are supposed to be involved in, such as red links (now, from what I understood, you are willing to remove a lot of things from the pedia. In particular for anonymous)
ant
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Anthere wrote:
sigh
yes
But there are some things that should be common, such as licensing and things that should not be, such as policies and things we are supposed to be involved in, such as red links (now, from what I understood, you are willing to remove a lot of things from the pedia. In particular for anonymous)
ant
Licensing is actually not an issue here, since if we choose, say, to go with creative commons license. Then we wouldn't be able to translate articles from english because of the licensing problem so that's not really an option.
As for the rest, I want to push the hebrew wikipedia forward strongly (yes I also want it to look more attractive, shame on me), as it is growing very fast and we already got premission to mirror a complete computing jargon dictionary from an israeli site. (about 100 articles) and numerous requests are pending for other informative sites. We are also planning to get permissions from educational institutes to publish already written material suitable for the encyclopedia.
What I asked was either to get developer priviledge (or other developer would help) to remove a couple of duplicate links that are hard-coded into the site ("edit this page", "recent changes", duplicate interlanguage links etc. on top and bottom), make all links non-underlined by default (horrible!), and have the ability to fix bugs related to several browsers. And also we are having a contest for a logo (that may or may not be similiar to the English wikipedia logo) -- to understand how to replace the default one.
I really think autonomy is needed here in order to get things going. If you really expect me to wait for Brion Vibber to return from his time-out (and then nag him) then you are wrong. There is no-one except him with developer rights on the Hebrew wikipedia. This is beaurocracy in action, and I don't really like politics.
Rotem http://he.wikipedia.org
Rotem-
What I asked was either to get developer priviledge (or other developer would help) to remove a couple of duplicate links that are hard-coded into the site
Did it ever occur to you that people have given some thought to the current layout? Take a look at a 30 kilobyte page. Now consider how long it takes you to find the "Recent changes" link if it's only at the top, or only at the bottom, especially if you do not / cannot use the floating menu bar. These links are there to increase usability, and when I first saw Wikipedia's layout I was very positively surprised that people had actually been smart enough to do this, something many other sites forget. Why does Google put the search box at the top and at the bottom of the result screen (which is much smaller than long Wikipedia articles)? Trust me, they know what they are doing.
I really think autonomy is needed here in order to get things going. If you really expect me to wait for Brion Vibber to return from his time-out (and then nag him) then you are wrong. There is no-one except him with developer rights on the Hebrew wikipedia. This is beaurocracy in action, and I don't really like politics.
That's incorrect. Everyone with server access can change the Hebrew Wikipedia. That includes me, Lee and Magnus. Brion understands the various internationalization problems best, though. I don't care if you like politics or not, but you'll have to deal with Wikipedia's rules and conventions, especially regarding the development and maintenance of the codebase. We have just formalized a new development policy which will make it much faster to update all the wikis to the latest version. But for that it is of fundamental importance that all code improvements go through the same process, instead of people doing their own stuff!
Regards,
Erik
Erik Moeller wrote:
Regards,
Erik
I find your previous message insulting, Erik, I was just asking for a little bit of trust on my doings or misdoings, but I'm in no position to prove that my intentions were positive, judge it as you like. I hope we'll both learn to collaborate better in the future as I (and it seems that you, too) intend to donate a lot of time and thought for this project, in its various forms.
Rotem
Rotem-
I find your previous message insulting, Erik, I was just asking for a little bit of trust on my doings or misdoings, but I'm in no position to prove that my intentions were positive, judge it as you like. I hope we'll both learn to collaborate better in the future as I (and it seems that you, too) intend to donate a lot of time and thought for this project, in its various forms.
I'm very willing to cooperate, but this can only happen within our existing framework of rules and conventions. Letting each Wikipedia do its own thing is not an option for the reasons which I have given. Please see
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_policy
and
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_tasks
for some things which need to be done. I also encourage you to work with Tarquin on a new skin which meets your expectations; whether this will become the new default can then be decided by a vote among all interested Wikipedians.
I certainly understand your frustration given how long it took to set up the Hebrew wiki. We always need volunteers who are willing to do necessary administration tasks. But to allow them to do so, we need to also reach an understanding about the process and policies which we use. Please do recognize my strong objections to violating that process as an attempt to keep the Wikipedia project as a whole functioning.
Regards,
Erik
On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 01:12:00AM +0200, Erik Moeller wrote:
Rotem-
I find your previous message insulting, Erik, I was just asking for a little bit of trust on my doings or misdoings, but I'm in no position to prove that my intentions were positive, judge it as you like. I hope we'll both learn to collaborate better in the future as I (and it seems that you, too) intend to donate a lot of time and thought for this project, in its various forms.
I'm very willing to cooperate, but this can only happen within our existing framework of rules and conventions. Letting each Wikipedia do its own thing is not an option for the reasons which I have given. Please see
It is not only an option but the only correct way. If people from one Wikipedia will try to force their views on other Wikipedias, Enciclopedia Libre-like fork will happen again.
--- Rotem Dan rotem_dan@yahoo.com wrote:
Anthere wrote:
Licensing is actually not an issue here, since if we choose, say, to go with creative commons license. Then we wouldn't be able to translate articles from english because of the licensing problem so that's not really an option.
you not following the same license than the others would be more a problem than just you having trouble translating english articles. It is an issue for all wikipedias. On the french wiki, many editors work on several wikis at the same time, esperanto, spanish, japanese, chinese...If we start not respecting a couple of "essential" rules, we won't be able to work together
What I asked was either to get developer priviledge (or other developer would help) to remove a couple of duplicate links that are hard-coded into the site ("edit this page", "recent changes", duplicate interlanguage links etc. on top and bottom), make all links non-underlined by default (horrible!), and have the ability to fix bugs related to several browsers.
bugs related to browsers are a wikipedia wide issue, not only an hebrew issue (believe me on this :-)). If you are able to fix these annoying bugs for all of us, I see not why we would not be happy.
And also we are having
a contest for a logo (that may or may not be similiar to the English wikipedia logo) -- to understand how to replace the default one.
As for the logo issue, there is certainly an easy solution since several different logos exist on wikipedia. I don't think a non english wikipedia should be exptected to necessarily welcome a certainly niced but definitly english-oriented logo.
Links made default with question mark rather than red underlined links is certainly possible as a default option.
I remember that I ask it for the french wikipedia nearly a year ago, and that it was agreed upon (agreed).
Well, in short, I think some of your comments are receivable :-) Perhaps taking one after the other ?
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Anthere wrote:
Well, in short, I think some of your comments are receivable :-) Perhaps taking one after the other ?
(taking a deep breath)
Yes I guess I have a habit of pouring all the guts at once, thanks for the friendly attitude, Anthere :-)
*sigh* I have been working too much on the hebrew 'pedia, I really despise the administrative/public relations/embassy stuff but no other user on the wiki seem to do that.
I will retire now and resign from my temporary position as an unsuccesful initiator/administrator/embassador/wannabe-developer and work solely on creating Mathematical articles (In my quest for creating the first math encyclopeia in hebrew, that's also free! hurray!).
Rotem
--- Rotem Dan rotem_dan@yahoo.com wrote:
Anthere wrote:
Well, in short, I think some of your comments are receivable :-) Perhaps taking one after the other
?
(taking a deep breath)
Yes I guess I have a habit of pouring all the guts at once, thanks for the friendly attitude, Anthere :-)
*sigh* I have been working too much on the hebrew 'pedia, I really despise the administrative/public relations/embassy stuff but no other user on the wiki seem to do that.
I will retire now and resign from my temporary position as an unsuccesful initiator/administrator/embassador/wannabe-developer and work solely on creating Mathematical articles (In my quest for creating the first math encyclopeia in hebrew, that's also free! hurray!).
Rotem
Do not resign :-) Just take it easy and slowly.
Working with Tarquin on the skin (eh Tarquin, where is that skin ?) is a good start.
Begin to get an agreement among he.wiki on your logo first (the french already started two times discussions about changing it...but some things just never go on as long as no one takes the lead).
Btw, your logos are nice (honestly this is the only thing I can see on your site, the rest of it is just a full screen of question marks to me); I regret that we all don't have a common logo, or at least one with a share little something to show unity, but well...nothing's perfect. No big deal.
But, there is no hurry, having all your issues solved in a month is *not* gonna happen. We are here for a long time anyway :-)
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--- Rotem Dan rotem_dan@yahoo.com wrote:
I think that reagardless of geographical, national etc. differences on wiki users demographies (that I think has nothing
to
do with anything here anyway). he.wikipedia.org is a complete, (almost) independent site, that has its users and readers, they should be the ones who vote for decisions related to their site, including policy, wiki code, layout, licensing and logo.
Well, here is a problem with the En:wiki policy -- as its applied accross boundaries. Do you agree that the GNU FDL is required also for the he. wiki? How about NPOV?
Its certainly impractical to say that the en:wiki can impose controls upon the he:wiki -- therefore, yes -- the he:wiki is almost fully under the command of its 30 users, and anyone else who can read/write Hebrew and wants to contribte... I agree that the he:wiki deserves a Hebrew logo, layout, etc. and that a Hebrew consensus will be the default --as if non-readers people could monitor everything that goes on. A loyalty to GNU is required.
But all *that is different from saying "Were an island unto ourselves -- we dont have to obey offlander laws like "GNU" or so called "principles" of "professionality," "NPOV", etc... this is simply not the case, (If that is what Dan is saying) regardless of the language or the language gap -- all Wikipedias are a part of Wikipedia.org, (*not en.wikipedia) and as such are commonly steered by consensus..
To facilitat communication, there will be a greater need for open discourse about these issues on the international mailing list, (in whatever language.) Everyone interested in anything other than just their own language should join that list as well No doubt thats whyDan (you) is (are) talking about this. But to say that the language barrier represents something more than what little it is - is a common (and honest) misconception among a great many Wikipedians.
-S-
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On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 10:58:03PM +0100, tarquin wrote:
steve vertigo wrote:
I agree that the he:wiki deserves a Hebrew logo, layout, etc.
I think it is more helpful to Wikipedia's image as an international and multilingual project if all pedias have a common logo & default skin.
No it wouldn't. It'd be better for half Wikipedias to have sane settings and half have broken settings than for all 'pedias to have broken settings.
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
it is more helpful to Wikipedia's image as an international and multilingual project if all pedias have a common logo & default skin.
No it wouldn't. It'd be better for half Wikipedias to have sane settings and half have broken settings than for all 'pedias to have broken settings.
Which settings are broken? I am working on a design for a new default skin, so any criticisms of the current default would be useful to me :)
--- tarquin tarquin@planetunreal.com wrote:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
it is more helpful to Wikipedia's image as an
international and
multilingual project if all pedias have a common
logo & default skin.
No it wouldn't. It'd be better for half Wikipedias
to have sane settings and half
have broken settings than for all 'pedias to have
broken settings.
Which settings are broken? I am working on a design for a new default skin, so any criticisms of the current default would be useful to me :)
un francophone a report� aujourd hui un probleme avec la page d accueil sous Mozilla. Il semble qu'il manque encore des balises.
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On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 11:14:00PM +0100, tarquin wrote:
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
it is more helpful to Wikipedia's image as an international and multilingual project if all pedias have a common logo & default skin.
No it wouldn't. It'd be better for half Wikipedias to have sane settings and half have broken settings than for all 'pedias to have broken settings.
Which settings are broken? I am working on a design for a new default skin, so any criticisms of the current default would be useful to me :)
Most broken things:
* horribly ugly default skin * very small default rc size * underlined links * new article counter is completely broken - it counts all the stubs
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
Which settings are broken? I am working on a design for a new default skin, so any criticisms of the current default would be useful to me :)
Most broken things:
- horribly ugly default skin
Specifics please? I think it's horribly ugly too, but I need to know *how* you think it is so I can do something about it.
- very small default rc size
The list of pages? Looks normal to me
- underlined links
That *IS* normal
- new article counter is completely broken - it counts all the stubs
Not a skin thing
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
I think it is more helpful to Wikipedia's image as an international and multilingual project if all pedias have a common logo & default skin.
No it wouldn't. It'd be better for half Wikipedias to have sane settings and half have broken settings than for all 'pedias to have broken settings.
Well, sure, but it would be best for all the wikis to have the same sane settings. ;-)
Stephen G.
Rotem-
Please, I would not like to argue about something silly as this, my arguments are nor "correct" nor "incorrect"
They are incorrect.
I was just trying to make small improvements to the HTML layout
Your improvements would be no improvements.
to make it more simpler and easier for users to use. If they won't like it it would have been reverted to the previous version.
By whom? By them? They don't have access to the skin code. If we give you access to the code, you'll effectively be the gatekeeper for the Hebrew wiki. I don't like that idea given the kind of misconceptions you have about so-called "autonomy". Now you're even talking about different licenses!
As for trying to "sneak" things in, I thought different language versions gets autonomy regarding decisions like this.
What made you think that? The only code autonomy is in the language files. If every language gets its own little "fixes", code maintenance becomes a nightmare. This is not going to happen. If you want improvements, or if your users ask for improvements, tell this to the mailing list and we'll discuss whether these improvements would truly be improvements, and implement them for all wikis *or not at all*. This is not bureaucratic, this is the way we have always done things. It's the only way to maintain a common codebase.
I have many ideas and I know a bit of PHP. If the users (that actually use that wiki) want a feature, bug fix, or a change on wiki X, why not just let them have it?
1) Because it will then become more and more difficult to update the code of that wiki from the CVS versions as the two code trees start to diverge from each other, and your users will start whining that they don't get feature X that's in the English Wikipedia, because adding said feature to the Hebrew Wikipedia causes a merge conflict with the special code that Rotem Dan added there; 2) Because if that feature, bug fix or change is useful, than all other wikis should have it. The Hebrew wiki is running on our server with manpower invested by people who have nothing to do with its contents, there's no way you are going to make a bug fix without making the same bugfix to the rest of the project as well. You benefit from our work, we benefit from yours. Simple, no? And if it isn't useful, then well, obviously the Hebrew wiki shouldn't have it either. 3) Because that feature, bug fix or change may have implications or effects that your users do not understand; this makes it necessary to discuss it first. The place to have such discussions is *here*, on the wikitech mailing list. 4) Because consistency across the different Wikipedia projects is essential for usability; bilingual users or users of several wiki-projects will expect the different wikis they are on to operate in the same way, and will be confused if each wiki makes it own little adaptations. Furthermore, this weakens the Wikimedia brand, which is important for being recognized internationally.
I think that reagardless of geographical, national etc. differences on wiki users demographies (that I think has nothing to do with anything here anyway). he.wikipedia.org is a complete, (almost) independent site, that has its users and readers, they should be the ones who vote for decisions related to their site, including policy,
Key elements of the policy, such as NPOV, are the same for all wikis. A wiki that does not follow the NPOV convention but makes up its own in its place would likely be kicked off the server quite quickly.
wiki code
The code is the same for all wikis. The only differences are language- specific additions. Most layout "fixes" are *not* language-specific.
layout, licensing
The licensing is the same for all wikis. The fundamentals of the layout are also the same.
and logo.
There should be a common look and feel for all wikis. Small variations in the logo are acceptable, though.
Look, if you don't want to be part of the Wikipedia/Wikimedia project, just say so. If you want to do everything by your own rules and ignore common conventions and policies, you will have to set up your own wiki, preferably with your own code. But don't waste our time if you don't want to play by the rules.
Slightly annoyed,
Erik
Rotem,
I think you are working from a few assumptions, some of which may not apply, and I would like to take some time to help you understand this.
Firstly, you seem to have a certain perception of possession. You seem to think that if you are the one to create a Hebrew Wikipedia, you will be the one to have full command over it. This is probably similar to how some athors consider articles they write as "theirs" and get annoyed when other people edit them; however, one of the fundamental basics of Wikipedia is that we are a collaborative group, and neither an article, nor a whole Wikipedia, is under the control of anyone.
Secondly, you seem to regard the Hebrew Wikipedia, or the idividiual Wikipedias in general, as more separate than they actually are (or should be). Although technically they are separate installations of the Wikipedia software and use separate databases, they should ideally be, or at least look like, parts of a whole. All the Wikipedias collectively form the entire complete Wikipedia project. If you'd change the licence of the Hebrew texts, it wouldn't be Wikipedia anyway. The different language Wikipedias are interwoven in many ways not only by the Inter-Wiki links, but also by ideologies like NPOV and the GFDL, as well as a common PHP codebase that will remain the same for all of them.
Now the layout. You do know that we have three distinct layouts already, right? We have "Standard", "Nostalgia" and "Cologne Blue". If you are absolutely convinced that a significant majority of Hebrew readers will dislike all three of them (which, frankly, I highly doubt, because I don't see how the layouts are so overly dependent on a cultural background or writing direction), then there is always the possibility of creating a new layout. Although this new layout will, if the majority agrees, be default on the Hebrew Wikipedia, it will automagically be available to all Wikipedia users in their preferences.
I hope this clears up a few matters, Timwi
On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 04:35:51PM +0200, Timwi wrote:
Rotem,
I think you are working from a few assumptions, some of which may not apply, and I would like to take some time to help you understand this.
Firstly, you seem to have a certain perception of possession. You seem to think that if you are the one to create a Hebrew Wikipedia, you will be the one to have full command over it. This is probably similar to how some athors consider articles they write as "theirs" and get annoyed when other people edit them; however, one of the fundamental basics of Wikipedia is that we are a collaborative group, and neither an article, nor a whole Wikipedia, is under the control of anyone.
Secondly, you seem to regard the Hebrew Wikipedia, or the idividiual Wikipedias in general, as more separate than they actually are (or should be). Although technically they are separate installations of the Wikipedia software and use separate databases, they should ideally be, or at least look like, parts of a whole. All the Wikipedias collectively form the entire complete Wikipedia project. If you'd change the licence of the Hebrew texts, it wouldn't be Wikipedia anyway. The different language Wikipedias are interwoven in many ways not only by the Inter-Wiki links, but also by ideologies like NPOV and the GFDL, as well as a common PHP codebase that will remain the same for all of them.
It's you who is mistaken. It's not about any individual's control over Hebrew Wikipedia, but about all Hebrew Wikipedians' control over it. If you aren't Hebrew Wikipedian, why should you have anything to say about that ?
Second, it's many individual Wikipedias, not one Wikipedia with many languages, and it's going to stay that way. GFDL and NPOV are the only policies that all Wikipedias must follow - about everything else - and certainly the layout - should be decided by Wikipedians of each Wikipedia.
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
Second, it's many individual Wikipedias, not one Wikipedia with many languages, and it's going to stay that way. GFDL and NPOV are the only policies that all Wikipedias must follow - about everything else - and certainly the layout - should be decided by Wikipedians of each Wikipedia.
Unfortunalty it's not this way. But, live is hard and we have to live with this little inconviniences.
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
It's you who is mistaken. It's not about any individual's control over Hebrew Wikipedia, but about all Hebrew Wikipedians' control over it.
Well, that's wrong too. That way lies segregation, not integration.
If you aren't Hebrew Wikipedian, why should you have anything to say about that ?
For the same reason that writers on the Hebrew Wikipedia are welcome to get involved on this discussion list, or on any other wikipedia for that matter.
Second, it's many individual Wikipedias, not one Wikipedia with many languages, and it's going to stay that way.
It is many wikipedias in different languages. That still means we should present a unified face to the world. We are regrettably partitioned into many groups which have trouble intercommunicating. (perhaps we should all learn Esperanto?)
It may seem like a small thing, but if they all look the same, then they all look like home to me, even if I don't understand the words -- and I hope everyone else can feel that way too :-) It saddens me every time I see the da: and the sv: logos that have the country flags overlaid -- it feels like stepping abroad (and Wikipedia should not be about nations, only languages). I go to the Japanese pedia and it's just like walking into a different room where people are talking in a different language.
-- tarquin
Logo contest (just look at the original proposals):
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%95%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9...
yeah see.. ican't see them and i cant understand anything... i have hebrew and bi-di text installed, but that doesnt mean i understand it. So i see a bunchy of chracters and stuff that resembles something i recognize, except in mirror image. wait wait wait, back to my point.. where's the logos ? I just want to see pretty pictures.
Lightning
Lightning wrote:
Logo contest (just look at the original proposals): http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%95%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9...
yeah see.. ican't see them and i cant understand anything... i have hebrew and bi-di text installed, but that doesnt mean i understand it. So i see a bunchy of chracters and stuff that resembles something i recognize, except in mirror image. wait wait wait, back to my point.. where's the logos ? I just want to see pretty pictures.
There are five logo proposals on that page. You'll just have to ignore all the text you can't read ;-)
Timwi
i found a browser bug......
Ok, on IE i see nothing, while in moz I can see them.
ON IE all I see is a couple of words, and thats it.. im gonna get some screen shots ans upload them. more later
Lightning
Lightning wrote:
Logo contest (just look at the original proposals):
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%95%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9...
yeah see.. ican't see them and i cant understand anything... i have
hebrew
and bi-di text installed, but that doesnt mean i understand it. So i see
a
bunchy of chracters and stuff that resembles something i recognize,
except
in mirror image. wait wait wait, back to my point.. where's the logos ?
I
just want to see pretty pictures.
There are five logo proposals on that page. You'll just have to ignore all the text you can't read ;-)
Timwi
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Here is the screenshots. someone that cares about browser compatibility and all that shebang do something about it if you care. I don't read bi-di hebrew or particularily care about people using IE (the only reason i happened to stumble upon this is because OE autmatically opens links in IE ) or care to fight with html.. so good luck!!
Dont complain about my IE not being up to date either, all the bi-di and hebrew shebang is installed, just look at how the scroll bar is on the _left_ side and all the other stuff is like that too, and its characters, not little boxes....
hope you people don't mind the attachments, i compressed them quite a bit, so don't cry, its only like 30k.
Lightning
----- Original Message ----- From: "Timwi" timwi@gmx.net To: wikitech-l@wikipedia.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:38 AM Subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Replacing the standard wikipedia logo on the Hebrew wikipedia
Lightning wrote:
Logo contest (just look at the original proposals):
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%95%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9...
yeah see.. ican't see them and i cant understand anything... i have
hebrew
and bi-di text installed, but that doesnt mean i understand it. So i see
a
bunchy of chracters and stuff that resembles something i recognize,
except
in mirror image. wait wait wait, back to my point.. where's the logos ?
I
just want to see pretty pictures.
There are five logo proposals on that page. You'll just have to ignore all the text you can't read ;-)
Timwi
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Lightning wrote:
Here is the screenshots.
What you're seeing in IE is the "This page doesn't contain any text" message. It seems like it has transmitted the URL wrongly or something. I'm afraid I can't help you with this; it works in my IE.
I'm particularly confused because it doesn't display the page title correctly.
Could you please try the following? Go to http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timwi I've put a link to the logos page there. Does it work if you follow that link?
Greetings, Timwi
Lightning wrote:
Here is the screenshots.
What you're seeing in IE is the "This page doesn't contain any text" message. It seems like it has transmitted the URL wrongly or something. I'm afraid I can't help you with this; it works in my IE.
I'm particularly confused because it doesn't display the page title correctly.
Could you please try the following? Go to http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timwi I've put a link to the logos page there. Does it work if you follow that link?
as far as i can tell, it works from your link. maybe its OE's fault...
Lightning
hey, I had like an idea, so i ripped offo ne of the logo's I saw on the hebrew wikipedia, which i figured was OK because its GFDL, and I did a little change to it... you can all see it here: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lightning
thats my proposal for a logo, I like it, I think it would work on all wiki'd too and its just cooler than the one we have, partly because its prettier, partly because it has no language/culture attachment whatsoever, partly because I made it and partly because I feel it represents both the encyclopedia aspect and the electronic aspect of our project. This is not a finished product, its just like an idea, I dont understand the butterfly, but it looks nice, and i like the way the book looks. mail me ideas and suggestions.
big heads up for ROTEM DAN! ok, now that i hope i have your attention, would you mind asking whoever submitted the base for the logo I modified if he/she hasa a higher resolution version or something I could toy around with? I would do it myself, but there is the issue of language, thanks
Lightning
Lightning-
hey, I had like an idea, so i ripped offo ne of the logo's I saw on the hebrew wikipedia, which i figured was OK because its GFDL, and I did a little change to it... you can all see it here: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lightning
Looks nice, but:
1) There should be a "WikipediA" (with the letters between the W and A in small caps) text below the logo, at least for the Latin Wikipedias. 2) Where does the butterfly come from? If it is copied from elsewhere, there might be problems with using it. 3) Which book do we see there, or is it just a stylization? 4) Most annoying: the butterfly is cut off at the top left corner.
Regards,
Erik
Lightning-
hey, I had like an idea, so i ripped offo ne of the logo's I saw on the hebrew wikipedia, which i figured was OK because its GFDL, and I did a little change to it... you can all see it here: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lightning
Looks nice, but:
- There should be a "WikipediA" (with the letters between the W and A in
small caps) text below the logo, at least for the Latin Wikipedias.
It was just a rough, I didnt add text cause I didn't want to upset anyone who doesnt use the same character set as me, you can never be too careful these days... ;)
- Where does the butterfly come from? If it is copied from elsewhere,
there might be problems with using it.
Ask the original author, I just modified it to flow into the numbers.. I got it from the hebrew wikipedia logo contest, i just added a couple of photoslopped details to it.
- Which book do we see there, or is it just a stylization?
see 2
- Most annoying: the butterfly is cut off at the top left corner.
yes i know. i would get in contact with the original author, but there is the slight problem of language, since i can't know who it is because I have a problem with reading hebrew (i can't). So until our friendly ambassador from the he wiki gets back here I can't contact the original author to see if i can get a higher res original i could play with.
Lightning
Lightning wrote:
Lightning-
hey, I had like an idea, so i ripped offo ne of the logo's I saw on the hebrew wikipedia, which i figured was OK because its GFDL, and I did a little change to it... you can all see it here: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lightning
Looks nice, but:
- There should be a "WikipediA" (with the letters between the W and A in
small caps) text below the logo, at least for the Latin Wikipedias.
It was just a rough, I didnt add text cause I didn't want to upset anyone who doesnt use the same character set as me, you can never be too careful these days... ;)
- Where does the butterfly come from? If it is copied from elsewhere,
there might be problems with using it.
Ask the original author, I just modified it to flow into the numbers.. I got it from the hebrew wikipedia logo contest, i just added a couple of photoslopped details to it.
- Which book do we see there, or is it just a stylization?
see 2
- Most annoying: the butterfly is cut off at the top left corner.
yes i know. i would get in contact with the original author, but there is the slight problem of language, since i can't know who it is because I have a problem with reading hebrew (i can't). So until our friendly ambassador from the he wiki gets back here I can't contact the original author to see if i can get a higher res original i could play with.
Lightning
The author's name is Liad Vainberger, you can contact him at http://he.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%97%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D...
(just write something in the box)
I have announced the International logo contest on the hebrew 'pedia and asked new submissions to be directed to the International contest instead of the localized one. I hope we'll have an agreement on a universal logo, participance from other wikipedias should also be encouraged, please announce it on all languages.
--Rotem
--- Lightning lightning@chaos-productions.com wrote:
- Most annoying: the butterfly is cut off at the
top left corner. yes i know. i would get in contact with the original author, but there is the slight problem of language, since i can't know who it is because I have a problem with reading hebrew (i can't). So until our friendly ambassador from the he wiki gets back here I can't contact the original author to see if i can get a higher res original i could play with.
Lightning
What about putting on the book, not a butterfly which does not hold a lot of meaning (but is pretty :-)), but instead one of the animal thought of possible mascot for wikipedia ?
Several propositions were made, and some met a lot of interest. see http://meta.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?search=mascot&go=Go
Look, there is an *absolutely* beautiful
ant
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- Lightning lightning@chaos-productions.com wrote: if i can get a higher res original i could play
with.
Ditto
but I put my own proposition nevertheless (which could be improved with the high res)
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_logos
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Erik Moeller wrote:
Lightning-
hey, I had like an idea, so i ripped offo ne of the logo's I saw on the hebrew wikipedia, which i figured was OK because its GFDL, and I did a little change to it... you can all see it here: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lightning
Looks nice, but:
- There should be a "WikipediA" (with the letters between the W and A in
small caps) text below the logo, at least for the Latin Wikipedias.
I think it would be better if the logo has no text. Then the same graphic can be used on all sites without any conversion.
I like it by the way :-)
IMHO, we don't need a logo so much as we need a logo concept. I think that there should be something constant about the logo, but that there should also be an element that can change. For instance, Google's logo changes for the holidays (though this is not necessarily my intent).
I like the open book idea. I also like the idea that the logo should lend itself to the goals of Wikipedia. I think it would be a good idea to have a basic "opened book" avilable to the public, from which anyone might base a logo. I like the numbers, too. Maybe they could stay.
I envision all kinds of things standing on the opened book, writing something on the page. Monkeys, men, women, etc.
My $0.02
Jason
tarquin wrote:
Erik Moeller wrote:
Lightning-
hey, I had like an idea, so i ripped offo ne of the logo's I saw on the hebrew wikipedia, which i figured was OK because its GFDL, and I did a little change to it... you can all see it here: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lightning
Looks nice, but:
- There should be a "WikipediA" (with the letters between the W and A in
small caps) text below the logo, at least for the Latin Wikipedias.
I think it would be better if the logo has no text. Then the same graphic can be used on all sites without any conversion.
I like it by the way :-)
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:02:55 -0400, Lightning <lightning@chaos- productions.com> gave utterance to the following:
hey, I had like an idea, so i ripped offo ne of the logo's I saw on the hebrew wikipedia, which i figured was OK because its GFDL, and I did a little change to it... you can all see it here: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lightning
The blue butterfly is very reminiscent of early Wordperfect!
Lightning wrote:
Timwi wrote:
Could you please try the following? Go to http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timwi I've put a link to the logos page there. Does it work if you follow that link?
as far as i can tell, it works from your link. maybe its OE's fault...
Okay. Now, the original link was: http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%95%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9... What is the URL you get when you click on my link? (I should have asked that in the previous mail...) Does it differ from this one?
Trying to figure out a bug, Timwi
Your link sends me here: if i copy and paste it, it works, good times. but if i click on it.....
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%95%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9...
the link shows up as above, but when I click on it in on OE it opens an ie window with the URL below. funny aint it? http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%97.%C3%97T%C3%97%C2%A7%C3%97T%C3%97%C2%A4%C...
thats about as useful as I can be..
Lightning
----- Original Message ----- From: "Timwi" timwi@gmx.net To: wikitech-l@wikipedia.org Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 8:19 AM Subject: [Wikitech-l] Re: Replacing the standard wikipedia logo on the Hebrew wikipedia
Lightning wrote:
Timwi wrote:
Could you please try the following? Go to http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timwi I've put a link to the logos page there. Does it work if you follow that link?
as far as i can tell, it works from your link. maybe its OE's fault...
Okay. Now, the original link was:
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%95%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9...
What is the URL you get when you click on my link? (I should have asked that in the previous mail...) Does it differ from this one?
Trying to figure out a bug, Timwi
Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@wikipedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Lightning wrote:
Your link sends me here: if i copy and paste it, it works, good times. but if i click on it.....
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%95%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9...
the link shows up as above, but when I click on it in on OE it opens an ie window with the URL below. funny aint it? http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%97.%C3%97T%C3%97%C2%A7%C3%97T%C3%97%C2%A4%C...
thats about as useful as I can be..
Lightning
This is one of the bugs with some unicode URLS on explorer, I mentioned it in the known Hebrew wikipedia buglist. (The same happens if you enter a special page on the heb-wiki, press "Back" then "Forward", it becomes this mess and gives a 404 wiki error :( ).
Rotem
Lightning wrote:
Your link sends me here: if i copy and paste it, it works, good times. but if i click on it.....
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%95%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9...
the link shows up as above, but when I click on it in on OE it opens an ie window with the URL below. funny aint it? http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%97.%C3%97T%C3%97%C2%A7%C3%97T%C3%97%C2%A4%C...
This sounds like a serious bug in IE, and Rotem appears to confirm this. I'm sorry for the bad news, but the best I can recommend, then, is that all Hebrew Wikipedians should use a browser that works ;-)
Timwi
wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
